Måns Rullgård <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
When I instruct my computer running the Debian OS to load and run
eclipse, the code from some JVM package and the code from the Eclipse
pack
Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
>
>> I'm not talking about running; I'm talking about making a copy of
>> Eclipse and a copy of Kaffe and putting them both on an end-user's
>> system such that when I type "eclipse" I get a program made out of
>> both.
>
> Yo
The entirety of GPL section 2 applies only to "works based on the
Program". In context, this applies only to derivative works and
(copyrightable) collections (the GPL says "collective works", but this
is obviously a thinko) under copyright law. The combination of Kaffe
and Eclipse is neither of t
Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
I'm not talking about running; I'm talking about making a copy of
Eclipse and a copy of Kaffe and putting them both on an end-user's
system such that when I type "eclipse" I get a program made out of
both.
You don't get a program made out of both any more than you get a
On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 04:44:39PM -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
> But you can see that it's not mere aggregation, because they invoke
> each other when run.
Evidence is not proof.
--
Raul
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On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 05:57:54PM +0100, Dalibor Topic wrote:
> Now, before you go off ranting about Kaffe's native libraries, please
> take a moment to let the fact sink in that while these native libraries
> are the result of Kaffe developers being a somewhat clever bunch at
> developing soft
Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>>> When I instruct my computer running the Debian OS to load and run
>>> eclipse, the code from some JVM package and the code from the Eclipse
>>> package and from dozens of others are loaded into memor
Grzegorz B. Prokopski wrote:
I would then just take the GPLed code of this GC library, GPLed code
of readline, cut out the pieces I need, integrate into my interepreter
and call it "interepter features". Thus, according to you, my
GPL-incompatible program would be able to use GPLed code thanks to
Oh yeah, the answer:
We just do. Because the grep developers don't mind, apparently. They
aren't going to sue us... they'd probably tell us to stop before they sued
us anyways. We are at no risk from this.
Kaffe developers: do you mind?
Of course not, read the classpath exception!
On Fri, 14 Ja
On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 04:42:44PM -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
> > An example. I am writing an app. A GPL-incompatible or even
> > closed-source one. I'd love to use this conservative garbage collector
> > library, but it's under GPL, so I cannot. I'd also love to use
> > libreadline, bu
Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>> When I instruct my computer running the Debian OS to load and run
>> eclipse, the code from some JVM package and the code from the Eclipse
>> package and from dozens of others are loaded into memory. The process
>> on my computer is mechanical, so we s
"Grzegorz B. Prokopski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Your implementation creates a huge loophole in GPL, that I do not
> believe is there. Let's continue your way of seeing "interepter
> features" and see what would be the consequences.
>
> An example. I am writing an app. A GPL-incompatible o
inline
On Fri, 14 Jan 2005 16:16:41 -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
> Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> If there actually is something going wrong, I'd really like for someone
>> to spell out what it is in some fashion which addresses the above points.
>
> Everything you said ther
Raul Miller <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> If there actually is something going wrong, I'd really like for someone
> to spell out what it is in some fashion which addresses the above points.
Everything you said there seems reasonable to me (at first glance).
It's fine for the Kaffe developers and
Grzegorz B. Prokopski wrote:
Your email messages do not contain calls to GPLed functions, do they?
Depends on the message :)
But that's not the point. The point is that the mere existance of a
chunk of non GPL-compatible memory within a GPLd proces' memory does not
necessarily constitute a GPL in
On Fri, 2005-14-01 at 20:56 +0100, Dalibor Topic wrote:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
>
> > I am. I'm not talking about the .deb file containing Eclipse. If you
> > think you can provide someone with the Eclipse IDE program without
> > providing a JVM, I invite you to try.
>
> You mean like Fed
On Thu, 2005-13-01 at 23:42 -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
> "Grzegorz B. Prokopski" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
> > These facilities include class loading, class instantiation,
> > synchronization, garbage collection (ie. you can trigger GC from within
> > your program), reflection (ie. you
Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
I am. I'm not talking about the .deb file containing Eclipse. If you
think you can provide someone with the Eclipse IDE program without
providing a JVM, I invite you to try.
You mean like Fedora? Eclipse 3 nicely compiled to native with gcj, yum,
and balzing fast, for
Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
Måns Rullgård <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
It is compiled against an interface, not an implementation. Which
particular implementation was used while compiling is irrelevant.
Can you support this ass
Måns Rullgård <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>>
>>> How Kaffe, the GPld interpreter, goes about loading GPLd parts of
>>> *itself* into memory, whether it uses JNI, KNI, dlopen, FFI, libtool,
>>> or othe
Brian Thomas Sniffen <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>> How Kaffe, the GPld interpreter, goes about loading GPLd parts of
>> *itself* into memory, whether it uses JNI, KNI, dlopen, FFI, libtool,
>> or other "bindings", or whether it asks the user to tilt s
On Fri, Jan 14, 2005 at 01:39:09PM -0500, Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
> But what ends up on the user's Debian system when he types "apt-get
> install eclipse; eclipse" is a program incorporating a JVM and many
> libraries. Debian's not just distributing Eclipse or just
> distributing Kaffe -- the
Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> How Kaffe, the GPld interpreter, goes about loading GPLd parts of
> *itself* into memory, whether it uses JNI, KNI, dlopen, FFI, libtool,
> or other "bindings", or whether it asks the user to tilt switches on
> an array of light bulbs is irrelevant to th
Dalibor Topic <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
> Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
>> Måns Rullgård <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>
>>>It is compiled against an interface, not an implementation. Which
>>>particular implementation was used while compiling is irrelevant.
>> Can you support this assertion? The
Brian Thomas Sniffen wrote:
Måns Rullgård <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
It is compiled against an interface, not an implementation. Which
particular implementation was used while compiling is irrelevant.
Can you support this assertion? The program, including its libraries,
which the developer int
Grzegorz B. Prokopski wrote:
If you at least went on and read next paragraph of the FAQ from which
you took the above.
http://www.gnu.org/licenses/gpl-faq.html#IfInterpreterIsGPL
"However, when the interpreter is extended to provide "bindings" to
other facilities (often, but not necessarily, librar
Grzegorz B. Prokopski wrote:
Yet, if you *package* this program together with a JVM, so that when
the user says "I want to build this package" or "I want to run this
package" the user gets your program with a specific JVM, then it's not
a mere aggregation, but these two are explicitely bound togeth
On Fri, 2005-01-14 at 08:52 -0600, Jerry Haltom wrote:
> > >
> > > Yes, we've seen this before. It is not good it ignores a lock after
> > > only 5 seconds. Maybe, as a debian-specific patch we could have this
> > > timeout somewhat increased? 20s?
> >
> > Sounds reasonable, unless anyone has
My objection is that it works fine with Sun's VM, why doesn't it work
with another VM, and fix that.
On Fri, 2005-01-14 at 10:26 +0200, Thomas Fogwill wrote:
> On Fri, 2005-01-14 at 02:19 -0500, Grzegorz B. Prokopski wrote:
> > > ... eclipse crashes occasionally on kaffe during
> > > startup with
Raul Miller wrote:
On Thu, Jan 13, 2005 at 04:35:50PM -0500, Grzegorz B. Prokopski wrote:
If Eclipse does use JNI, would still a question about whether or not
Kaffe's JNI implementation constitute some kind of extension designed
to work around the GPL or whether they are some kind of implementatio
Grzegorz B. Prokopski, on 2005-01-13, 13:43, you wrote:
> "However, when the interpreter is extended to provide "bindings" to
> other facilities (often, but not necessarily, libraries), the
> interpreted program is effectively linked to the facilities it uses
> through these bindings. So if these f
On Fri, 2005-01-14 at 02:19 -0500, Grzegorz B. Prokopski wrote:
> > ... eclipse crashes occasionally on kaffe during
> > startup with an SWTException (Widget is disposed).
>
> I wonder, but does this crash also happen when eclipse is compiled with
> Sun's JDK?
Haven't tested it yet. Will let you
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