Hi,
> Le Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 07:22:11PM +0200, Marco d'Itri a écrit :
>> On Sep 23, Ralf Jung wrote:
>>
>>> I've seen multiple machines, including older machines of myself, to be
>>> under full disk load for at least several minutes due to (some form of)
>>> locate - every time the cronjob runs.
Le Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 07:22:11PM +0200, Marco d'Itri a écrit :
> On Sep 23, Ralf Jung wrote:
>
> > I've seen multiple machines, including older machines of myself, to be
> > under full disk load for at least several minutes due to (some form of)
> > locate - every time the cronjob runs. The slo
On Sep 23, Ralf Jung wrote:
> I've seen multiple machines, including older machines of myself, to be
> under full disk load for at least several minutes due to (some form of)
> locate - every time the cronjob runs. The slowdown was noticeable,
This is hard to believe, since the cron job uses ioni
Hi,
>> s/daemon/cron job/g
>
> Then I disagree with your claim about «very significant overhead». Even
> on spinning rust, mlocate is pretty quick since it does a good bunch of
> optimisations to avoid re-indexing unchanged directories. Maybe your
> perception has been marred by slocate and the
]] Josh Triplett
> Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> > ]] Josh Triplett
> >
> > > - mlocate. We don't need a "locate" in standard; anyone who actually
> > > uses locate (and wants the very significant overhead of running a
> > > locate daemon) can easily install this.
> >
> > There is no «locate d
> On 17 Sep 2014, at 08:24, envite wrote:
>
> Having one easy text editor in command line is necessary. Both nano or joe
> will make that target. None of emacs nor vi does: they are not as easy.
I really think *some* vi implementation should be in standard. It's true,
those who don't know v
> On 17 Sep 2014, at 07:58, Ansgar Burchardt wrote:
>
> That's why *both* should be installed by default. Then everybody will be
> happy.
To keep the (bad) joke going, I was going to suggest gnu zile be made standard,
but even *that* is pretty big.
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Theodore Ts'o writes ("Re: Trimming priority:standard"):
> That being said, if there are Debian users who are not Unix-heads,
> they aren't going to miss any of these. What if we create a tasksel
> task called "Unix" that installs these traditional Unix com
Le mardi, 16 septembre 2014, 23.17:51 Joerg Jaspert a écrit :
> On 13698 March 1977, Didier Raboud wrote:
> >> > One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with
> >> > "unix".[1] So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task
> >> > to be someting like "unix-like".
> >>
> >>
does: they are not as easy.
Regards
Noel
Enviado de Samsung Mobile
Mensaje original
De: Ansgar Burchardt
Fecha:17/09/2014 7:58 (GMT+00:00)
Para: debian-devel@lists.debian.org
Asunto: Re: Trimming priority:standard
Noel Torres writes:
> On Tuesday, 16 de September de 2
Noel Torres writes:
> On Tuesday, 16 de September de 2014 22:17:51 Joerg Jaspert escribió:
>> On 13698 March 1977, Didier Raboud wrote:
>> >> > One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with
>> >> > "unix".[1] So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task
>> >> > to be some
On Tuesday, 16 de September de 2014 22:17:51 Joerg Jaspert escribió:
> On 13698 March 1977, Didier Raboud wrote:
> >> > One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with
> >> > "unix".[1] So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task
> >> > to be someting like "unix-like".
> >>
On 13698 March 1977, Didier Raboud wrote:
>> > One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with
>> > "unix".[1] So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task
>> > to be someting like "unix-like".
>> Or we could just call it "standard system".
> Could we make sure the full "vi
On Sunday, 14 de September de 2014 17:04:10 Stefano Zacchiroli escribió:
> On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 11:17:34AM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > I'm not arguing that "standard" should have nothing in it; it should
> > have things that the vast majority of users will 1) expect to find
> > present witho
On Sep 16, James McCoy wrote:
> The very informed/knowledgeable user isn't the one that soured my
> perception of the choice to have vim-tiny provide /usr/bin/vim. It's
Still, as I explained it is very useful since the footprint of the full
vim is an order of magnitude bigger.
It is not clear t
On Tue, Sep 16, 2014 at 03:54:21AM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Sep 16, James McCoy wrote:
>
> > As I said in my other reply, the intent of vim-tiny is to provide a vi
> > command. The fact that it is using Vim to do so is the means, not the
> > end.
> I think it's more complex than this: I l
On Sep 16, James McCoy wrote:
> As I said in my other reply, the intent of vim-tiny is to provide a vi
> command. The fact that it is using Vim to do so is the means, not the
> end.
I think it's more complex than this: I like vim-tiny because I can use
it on small images without wasting space f
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:07:08PM +0200, Jonas Meurer wrote:
> Am 13.09.2014 um 12:58 schrieb Didier 'OdyX' Raboud:
> > Le vendredi, 12 septembre 2014, 13.55:53 Joey Hess a écrit :
> >> Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> >>> One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with
> >>> "unix".[1] So we
I wonder whether the POV in this discussion is right. I have the impression
that the discussion is about the removal of "old" packages.
Squeeze had 91 standard packages, now there are 108. The latest one:
doc-debian. When libsqlcipher0 (1) hit standard I also had doubts that its
functionality jus
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 06:16:47PM +0200, Matthias Urlichs wrote:
> And perl, which has the advantage of an '-e' switch.
>
> Or [m]awk, which is even Required (is there still a reason for that?).
AWK is mentioned in the Single UNIX Specification as one of the
mandatory utilities of a Unix operati
Bob Proulx writes:
> James McCoy wrote:
>> I keep contemplating packaging ex-vi and advocating to replace vim-tiny
>> with that. After all, the intent is to have something providing
>> /usr/bin/vi, as one expects to have on a *nix system, so why not have
>> it actually be vi?
> The package is a
Am 13.09.2014 um 12:58 schrieb Didier 'OdyX' Raboud:
> Le vendredi, 12 septembre 2014, 13.55:53 Joey Hess a écrit :
>> Theodore Ts'o wrote:
>>> One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with
>>> "unix".[1] So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task
>>> to be someting like
James McCoy wrote:
> Bob Proulx wrote:
> > James McCoy wrote:
> > > I keep contemplating packaging ex-vi and advocating to replace vim-tiny
> > > with that. After all, the intent is to have something providing
> > > /usr/bin/vi, as one expects to have on a *nix system, so why not have it
> > > act
On Mon, Sep 15, 2014 at 10:56:16AM -0600, Bob Proulx wrote:
> James McCoy wrote:
> > I keep contemplating packaging ex-vi and advocating to replace vim-tiny
> > with that. After all, the intent is to have something providing
> > /usr/bin/vi, as one expects to have on a *nix system, so why not have
James McCoy wrote:
> I keep contemplating packaging ex-vi and advocating to replace vim-tiny
> with that. After all, the intent is to have something providing
> /usr/bin/vi, as one expects to have on a *nix system, so why not have it
> actually be vi?
The package is already done.
apt-cache sho
Hi,
Jonathan Dowland:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 03:49:11PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> > bc is the standard Unix calculator, normally a dc frontend,
> > and used in *a lot* of scripts.
>
> Is there any way of verifying or even reasonably estimating how common it is
> used? *Within* debian, s
On Mon, 2014-09-15 at 14:53 +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 03:49:11PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> > bc is the standard Unix calculator, normally a dc frontend,
> > and used in *a lot* of scripts.
>
> Is there any way of verifying or even reasonably estimating how comm
Hi,
On Montag, 15. September 2014, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> > Perhaps
> > task-traditional -- Traditional Unix utilities
> I quite like that.
FWIW, me too. (I also liked "task-unix" or "task-unix-like", but less.)
Thanks for cleaning up priority:standard!
cheers,
Holger
signatur
On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 03:49:11PM +0200, Thorsten Glaser wrote:
> bc is the standard Unix calculator, normally a dc frontend,
> and used in *a lot* of scripts.
Is there any way of verifying or even reasonably estimating how common it is
used? *Within* debian, sadly it's hard to ascertain via cod
On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 06:27:38PM +0100, Simon McVittie wrote:
> On 12/09/14 18:19, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> > One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with "unix".[1]
> > So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task to be someting
> > like "unix-like".
>
> Perhaps
>
>
On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 03:44:46AM +0200, Adam Borowski wrote:
> You want 'nc myserver 25', as 'telnet myserver 25' will misbehave on 0xff
> bytes. A malicious server can do pretty surprising things to you, too.
You're both wrong; you want swaks(1).
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Am Freitag, den 12.09.2014, 08:59 +0200 schrieb Fabian Greffrath:
> > apt-listchanges aptitude aptitude-common at bash-completion bc dc bind9-host
> Why is aptitude still in this list?
This has not been answered yet?!
- Fabian
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Tollef Fog Heen wrote:
> ]] Josh Triplett
>
> > - mlocate. We don't need a "locate" in standard; anyone who actually
> > uses locate (and wants the very significant overhead of running a
> > locate daemon) can easily install this.
>
> There is no «locate daemon» in mlocate.
s/daemon/cron j
]] Josh Triplett
> - mlocate. We don't need a "locate" in standard; anyone who actually
> uses locate (and wants the very significant overhead of running a
> locate daemon) can easily install this.
There is no «locate daemon» in mlocate.
--
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UNIX is user friendly, it's just
On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 12:58:04PM +0200, Didier 'OdyX' Raboud wrote:
> Le vendredi, 12 septembre 2014, 13.55:53 Joey Hess a écrit :
> > Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> > > One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with
> > > "unix".[1] So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task
>
Le vendredi, 12 septembre 2014, 13.55:53 Joey Hess a écrit :
> Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> > One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with
> > "unix".[1] So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task
> > to be someting like "unix-like".
>
> Or we could just call it "standard sy
On Sat, Sep 13, 2014 at 11:17:34AM -0700, Josh Triplett wrote:
> I'm not arguing that "standard" should have nothing in it; it should
> have things that the vast majority of users will 1) expect to find
> present without having to install them and 2) actually use or care
> about.
I sympathize with
Hi,
from personal experience, I agree that the packages with priority
standard need to be reconsidered. I don't really care about bc, dc, w3m
and similar tools - I never use then, but then, they only need a few KiB
so I wouldn't mind if they were installed nontheless. However, there are
4 packages
Vincent Danjean wrote:
> On 12/09/2014 18:41, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > ...I think this makes more sense: *neither* version of Make should have
> > priority standard. Bug filed.
>
> [And lots of other utility also requested to be removed from Standard
> priority..]
>
> When I see that 'make' an
El vie, 12 de sep 2014 a las 10:12 , Theodore Ts'o
escribió:
On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 03:12:47PM +0100, Simon McVittie wrote:
(Admittedly, cron has to be Priority:important anyway, to support
logrotate - until/unless someone adds a logrotate.timer for
systemd, and
makes its cron job early-
On 12/09/2014 18:41, Josh Triplett wrote:
> ...I think this makes more sense: *neither* version of Make should have
> priority standard. Bug filed.
[And lots of other utility also requested to be removed from Standard
priority..]
When I see that 'make' and other well-known programs should not
> Just wait for systemd-emacs. It would obsolete... all of gnuserv!
Silly people.
https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/systemd-emacs-daemon/
http://www.emacswiki.org/emacs/EmacsAsDaemon#toc8
https://lists.gnu.org/archive/html/bug-gnu-emacs/2014-01/msg00996.html
--
bye, Joerg
It's not that I'm a
Hi,
Edward Allcutt:
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Josh Triplett wrote:
> >>* telnet: dead for 19 years. Used only by those who misspell 'nc' and hope
> >> for no 0xff bytes.
>
> A slight exaggeration. A client that uses the actual telnet protocol is
> still invaluable for managing various fairly stupi
Hi,
Huh. I have been waiting for emacs/lisp/systemd.el
Manoj
On September 12, 2014 7:49:45 PM PDT, John Goerzen
wrote:
>On 09/12/2014 02:27 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
>> On Sep 12, 2014, at 07:18 PM, Jakub Wilk wrote:
>>
>>> I'm looking forward for systemd-mta.
>>
>> It's inevitable. ;)
>>
On 09/12/2014 02:27 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote:
> On Sep 12, 2014, at 07:18 PM, Jakub Wilk wrote:
>
>> I'm looking forward for systemd-mta.
>
> It's inevitable. ;)
>
> http://catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html
>
> -Barry
Just wait for systemd-emacs. It would obsolete... all of gnuserv!
On Sep 12, 2014, at 07:18 PM, Jakub Wilk wrote:
>I'm looking forward for systemd-mta.
It's inevitable. ;)
http://catb.org/jargon/html/Z/Zawinskis-Law.html
-Barry
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Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 03:12:47PM +0100, Simon McVittie wrote:
> >
> > (Admittedly, cron has to be Priority:important anyway, to support
> > logrotate - until/unless someone adds a logrotate.timer for systemd, and
> > makes its cron job early-return if systemd is pid 1.)
>
Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with "unix".[1]
> So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task to be someting
> like "unix-like".
Or we could just call it "standard system".
--
see shy jo
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On Thu, 11 Sep 2014, Russ Allbery wrote:
> wamerican provides /usr/share/dict/words, which is widely used in a
> variety of strange places you wouldn't expect, like random test
> suites.
If size is an issue, I'd also be OK with migrating wamerican-small to
standard (0.5M installed), and wamerican
On 12/09/14 18:19, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with "unix".[1]
> So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task to be someting
> like "unix-like".
Perhaps
task-traditional -- Traditional Unix utilities
? Or Un*x if you're that worri
One thought... there will probably be trademark concerns with "unix".[1]
So we might have to choose a name for the tasksel task to be someting
like "unix-like".
[1] http://www.unix.org/trademark.html
- Ted
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* Theodore Ts'o , 2014-09-12, 13:12:
It's inevitable that systemd will subsume cron, with an incompatible
configuration file format. :-)
I'm looking forward for systemd-mta.
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On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 03:12:47PM +0100, Simon McVittie wrote:
>
> (Admittedly, cron has to be Priority:important anyway, to support
> logrotate - until/unless someone adds a logrotate.timer for systemd, and
> makes its cron job early-return if systemd is pid 1.)
It's inevitable that systemd wil
On Fri, Sep 12, 2014 at 02:36:09PM +0200, Simon Josefsson wrote:
> Josh Triplett writes:
>
> > - make-guile. More of a question than a recommendation for a change,
> > but why is this standard and make optional, rather than the other way
> > around?
>
> Is this mostly about naming? GNU Mak
On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Josh Triplett wrote:
* telnet: dead for 19 years. Used only by those who misspell 'nc' and hope
for no 0xff bytes.
A slight exaggeration. A client that uses the actual telnet protocol is
still invaluable for managing various fairly stupid devices.
Given the rarity of
Le 12/09/2014 16:37, Thorsten Glaser a écrit :
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Thibaut Paumard wrote:
>
>> No, it's not. The actual definition is very vague and does not refer to
>
> Oh, my bad. I confused this with priority:important then.
>
> So we should probably *raise* the priority of things like
>
On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Thibaut Paumard wrote:
> No, it's not. The actual definition is very vague and does not refer to
Oh, my bad. I confused this with priority:important then.
So we should probably *raise* the priority of things like
bc, ed, etc. to "important".
bye,
//mirabilos
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Le 12/09/2014 16:33, Thibaut Paumard a écrit :
> Le 12/09/2014 16:23, Thorsten Glaser a écrit :
>> On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Thibaut Paumard wrote:
>>
>>> I agree that all those tools belong to a standard UNIX system. However,
>>> is that among our goals to provide people with a standard UNIX system by
Simon McVittie wrote:
>On 12/09/14 14:56, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
>> What if we create a tasksel
>> task called "Unix" that installs these traditional Unix commands from
>> the BSD 4.x era? It would include dc, m4, /usr/dict/words, telnet,
>> etc.
>
>I was just about to suggest that myself. at, cron,
Le 12/09/2014 16:23, Thorsten Glaser a écrit :
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Thibaut Paumard wrote:
>
>> I agree that all those tools belong to a standard UNIX system. However,
>> is that among our goals to provide people with a standard UNIX system by
>
> This is not about “by default”, but it *is* the
On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Thibaut Paumard wrote:
> I agree that all those tools belong to a standard UNIX system. However,
> is that among our goals to provide people with a standard UNIX system by
This is not about “by default”, but it *is* the definition
of priority:standard in Debian.
And yes, it’
Le 12/09/2014 15:49, Thorsten Glaser a écrit :
> On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Josh Triplett wrote:
[...]
> bc is the standard Unix calculator, normally a dc frontend,
> and used in *a lot* of scripts.
[...]
> Eh sorry? at+cron are standard Unix.
[...]
> But then, an MTA configured to listen and deliver loc
On 12/09/14 14:56, Theodore Ts'o wrote:
> What if we create a tasksel
> task called "Unix" that installs these traditional Unix commands from
> the BSD 4.x era? It would include dc, m4, /usr/dict/words, telnet,
> etc.
I was just about to suggest that myself. at, cron, an MTA, and locate
seem good
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 07:41:19PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>
> > * telnet: dead for 19 years. Used only by those who misspell 'nc' and hope
> > for no 0xff bytes.
> > * wamerican: what use is a wordlist with no users?
>
> Both of these fall under the "anyone familiar with UNIX would go 'whe
On Fri, 12 Sep 2014, Josh Triplett wrote:
> > * dc: a RPN calculator is pretty esoteric, bc is for "normal people".
>
> Just filed a bug for that one.
>
> I'd actually argue that both bc and dc should become "optional".
*no*!
bc is the standard Unix calculator, normally a dc frontend,
and used
Josh Triplett writes:
> - make-guile. More of a question than a recommendation for a change,
> but why is this standard and make optional, rather than the other way
> around?
Is this mostly about naming? GNU Make has guile-support by default, so
I would say that 'make' should be with Guile
Josh Triplett writes:
> Now that libc-bin contains C.UTF-8, which we should make the default
> locale, [...]
It would be nice to get Debian's support for C.UTF-8 pushed to upstream
glibc. At present, it's patched in by some (not all) distributions,
which means that upstream authors can't rely on
* Josh Triplett , 2014-09-12, 00:55:
- gettext-base. Supports internationalized shell scripts; anything
using this depends on it, and nothing in standard or above does.
select-editor uses it: #728612
(I can't fathom why this tool exists in the first place.)
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Adam Borowski wrote:
> What would you guys say about cutting some cruft from priority:standard?
Yes please! I've been poking at this for a while, trying to reduce the
number of installed-by-default packages; I've filed quite a few bugs,
some of which have gotten fixed.
> The current list is:
>
Quoting Russ Allbery (2014-09-12 04:41:19)
> wamerican provides /usr/share/dict/words, which is widely used in a
> variety of strange places you wouldn't expect, like random test
> suites.
How about the more generic (but also slightly larger) miscwords for that
instead.
- Jonas
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Adam Borowski writes:
> What would you guys say about cutting some cruft from priority:standard?
Yay.
> bind9-host dnsutils host libbind9-90 libdns100 libisc95 liblwres90
Is the BIND libraries pulled in just because of 'host'? Seems rather
heavy to me. Anyway, the 'host' package seems to be
> apt-listchanges aptitude aptitude-common at bash-completion bc dc bind9-host
Why is aptitude still in this list?
Please keep telnet.
- Fabian
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Arc
]] Russ Allbery
> Scott Kitterman writes:
>
> > Personally, I use telnet pretty routinely. Generally when I'm acting as
> > a human pretending to be an MTA for troubleshooting purposes. I would
> > find it pretty surprising to find it absent.
>
> Try nc. It works pretty well. :)
Telnet ha
Scott Kitterman writes:
> Personally, I use telnet pretty routinely. Generally when I'm acting as
> a human pretending to be an MTA for troubleshooting purposes. I would
> find it pretty surprising to find it absent.
Try nc. It works pretty well. :)
--
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Adam Borowski writes:
> I'd start with:
> * dc: a RPN calculator is pretty esoteric, bc is for "normal people".
> * db5.1-util: we're on db5.3, and I don't see much util here.
> * m4: a really obscure language. Used basically only for autoconf scripts,
> and that use is covered by autoconf's d
On Thu, Sep 11, 2014 at 08:53:59PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> On Friday, September 12, 2014 02:43:09 Marco d'Itri wrote:
> > On Sep 12, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > > What would you guys say about cutting some cruft from priority:standard?
> >
> > I like your plan (even if I have some doubts abo
On Friday, September 12, 2014 02:43:09 Marco d'Itri wrote:
> On Sep 12, Adam Borowski wrote:
> > What would you guys say about cutting some cruft from priority:standard?
>
> I like your plan (even if I have some doubts about telnet).
Personally, I use telnet pretty routinely. Generally when I'm
On Sep 12, Adam Borowski wrote:
> What would you guys say about cutting some cruft from priority:standard?
I like your plan (even if I have some doubts about telnet).
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Marco
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What would you guys say about cutting some cruft from priority:standard?
The current list is:
apt-listchanges aptitude aptitude-common at bash-completion bc dc bind9-host
dnsutils host libbind9-90 libdns100 libisc95 liblwres90 bsd-mailx bzip2
libcwidget3 libsasl2-2 libsasl2-modules-db db5.1-
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