Steve Langasek dijo [Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 01:53:02PM -0700]:
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 11:25:50PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 12:31:51PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
>
> > > IMHO, it's better to have a vote quickly on a limited set of GR options,
> > > with the possibilit
Good Evening Kurt:
I have carefully read your complaint about Richard Stallman, and while I
believe everyone should be entitled to an opinion on values, I find your
condemnation of Stallman to be unfounded, and not relevant to software
development, particularly Stallman's position on abortion
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 11:25:50PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 12:31:51PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > IMHO, it's better to have a vote quickly on a limited set of GR options,
> > with the possibility of a second GR if there is sufficient dissatisfaction
> > with the fi
Wouter Verhelst writes:
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 01:04:21PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>> * A formal amendment has to be sponsored like a new GR before it can be
>> accepted, but the original proposer of a GR can make their own amendment
>> without having it be sponsored. These two rules ma
Simon Richter writes:
> A core component of the operating system we ship is so complex that it
> needs to be maintained by full-time employees. This has effectively given
> the corporation employing these people veto power over our technical
> decisions, because even though the software they ship i
Hi,
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 10:45:29PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > Debian is a political project that promotes the autonomy of users vis-a-vis
> > large organizations such as corporations and governments. It does this by
> > promoting the creation of free software, and by fostering a community
On 2021-04-20 12:44, Adrian Bunk wrote:
A single person being able to block consensus of basically everyone
else
feels like opening up the process to unconstructive behavior.
A single person whom we trust to upload anything to our archive.[1]
If the person thinks there is something left that
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 10:58:51AM -0600, Sam Hartman wrote:
> 4) It seems like there is an emerging consensus that we want either all
> votes secret or to be able to have secret non-DPL votes.
I dispute this statement. Some people said that.
I disagree that voting secrecy is (sensibly) possible.
* Wouter Verhelst [2021-04-20 13:50]:
Not sure whether you consider this an issue, but I don't see that as a
problem. There is a difference between "we can't reach an agreement and
therefore decide on a no-outcome vote" (which the default option is),
and "we have considered all the options and d
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 01:04:21PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Jonathan Carter writes:
>
> > I think that framing the problems and noting them while the last GR is
> > still fresh in our collective memories will be really useful. I don't
> > think anyone should feel too much pressure right now t
Hi Eduard,
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 08:49:56PM +0200, Eduard Bloch wrote:
> > Make no mistake, the quest to have "apolitical" free software is deeply
> > political in itself: the process that decides which group can establish
> Sorry, by your definition there is no way to escape from political
>
On Tue, Apr 20, 2021 at 11:59:31AM +0200, Philipp Kern wrote:
> On 2021-04-20 10:59, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> > I would suggest to replace the option of shortening the discussion
> > period with the possibility of early calling for a vote after a week
> > that can be vetoed by any developer within 24 h
On 2021-04-20 10:59, Adrian Bunk wrote:
I would suggest to replace the option of shortening the discussion
period with the possibility of early calling for a vote after a week
that can be vetoed by any developer within 24 hours. This would ensure
that shorter discussion periods would only happen
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 01:04:21PM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
>...
> * The length of the discussion period is ill-defined in multiple ways,
> which has repeatedly caused conflicts. It only resets on accepted
> amendments but not new ballot options, which makes little logical sense
> and cons
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 12:31:51PM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
>...
> IMHO, it's better to have a vote quickly on a limited set of GR options,
> with the possibility of a second GR if there is sufficient dissatisfaction
> with the first GR outcome, than to have community energy spent endlessly on
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 06:37:01PM +0200, Simon Richter wrote:
> Hi,
Hi Simon,
> On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 04:56:34PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
>
> > Is it really still an open question whether Debian is a political
> > project that has opinions on non-technical topics like the board of the
> > FS
Jonathan Carter writes:
> I think that framing the problems and noting them while the last GR is
> still fresh in our collective memories will be really useful. I don't
> think anyone should feel too much pressure right now to come up with
> solutions, and I'd urge any group of people who are bra
Hi Russ
On 2021/04/19 21:36, Russ Allbery wrote:
> I'm helping hash out some ideas in private only because framing the
> problem and brainstorming possible solutions requires a ton of back and
> forth...
I think that framing the problems and noting them while the last GR is
still fresh in our col
Wouter Verhelst writes:
> Our current processes work best, I believe, if proposals are written in
> the open, so that if people disagree with the proposed texts, they can
> start working on their amendment right away, which is much more
> difficult to do under the time pressure of a GR procedure.
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 10:58:51AM -0600, Sam Hartman wrote:
> 1) The person who introduces a GR is treated differently than anyone who
> introduces an amendment in ways that are odd, and are subject to
> strategic abuse.
This asymmetry guards against a GR discussion being allowed to continue
inde
Hallo,
* Simon Richter [Mon, Apr 19 2021, 06:37:01PM]:
> Make no mistake, the quest to have "apolitical" free software is deeply
> political in itself: the process that decides which group can establish
Catch 22?
Sorry, by your definition there is no way to escape from political
discussions. No
Hi Sam,
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 10:58:51AM -0600, Sam Hartman wrote:
> Certainly in the systemd process there were a number of short comings
> that came to light that are worth improving:
>
> 1) The person who introduces a GR is treated differently than anyone who
> introduces an amendment in way
> "Theodore" == Theodore Ts'o writes:
Theodore> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 02:05:20PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
>> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 11:30:48AM +0800, Benda Xu wrote:
>> > The winning option "Debian will not issue a public statement on
>> this > issue" implies that the
Hi,
On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 04:56:34PM +0300, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> Is it really still an open question whether Debian is a political
> project that has opinions on non-technical topics like the board of the
> FSF or the legal status of Taiwan, Palestine and Kosovo, or whether
> Debian is a techni
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 02:05:20PM +0100, Jonathan Dowland wrote:
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 11:30:48AM +0800, Benda Xu wrote:
> > The winning option "Debian will not issue a public statement on this
> > issue" implies that the majority of DDs is not interested in such
> > non-technical affairs.
>
Le lundi 19 avril 2021 à 14:05 +0100, Jonathan Dowland a écrit :
> On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 11:30:48AM +0800, Benda Xu wrote:
> > The winning option "Debian will not issue a public statement on
> > this
> > issue" implies that the majority of DDs is not interested in such
> > non-technical affairs.
On Mon, Apr 19, 2021 at 11:30:48AM +0800, Benda Xu wrote:
> The winning option "Debian will not issue a public statement on this
> issue" implies that the majority of DDs is not interested in such
> non-technical affairs.
The vote in fact shows the opposite. That interpretation of the result
woul
On 2021-04-19 02:46, Brian Thompson wrote:
Is it really still an open question whether Debian is a political
project that has opinions on non-technical topics like the board of
the
FSF or the legal status of Taiwan, Palestine and Kosovo, or whether
Debian is a technical project where peo
On 2021-04-19 08:57, Jonathan Carter wrote:
That's more than just a big assumption, I'd go as far to say that it's
a
big leap to assume that from that option. Additionally, you're assuming
that that attempts to fix the problems in our voting system would
somehow make us more political? How do
Hi Benda
On 2021/04/19 05:30, Benda Xu wrote:
> I would like to congratulate you for becoming our next DPL.
Thanks!
>> However, I don't think we're quite in a position to pat ourselves on
>> the back here. This vote has once again highlighted some problems in
>> our methods for making decisions.
Hi,
> Benda Xu 於 2021年4月19日 11:40 寫道：
>
> The winning option "Debian will not issue a public statement on this
> issue" implies that the majority of DDs is not interested in such
> non-technical affairs. Such a working group will distract us from
> achieving technical excellence.
>
Most of th
Hi Jonathan,
Jonathan Carter writes:
> On 2021/04/18 13:20, Debian Project Secretary - Kurt Roeckx wrote:
>> The details of the results are available at:
>> https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002
>
> Thanks for all your work on this vote, I believe that you made excellent
> decisions as proje
cision making working group (was Re: General Resolution: Statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF board result) On 4/18/21 9:56 AM, Adrian Bunk wrote: > Is it really still an open question whether Debian is a political> project that has opinions on non-technical
On 4/18/21 9:56 AM, Adrian Bunk wrote:
> Is it really still an open question whether Debian is a political
> project that has opinions on non-technical topics like the board of the
> FSF or the legal status of Taiwan, Palestine and Kosovo, or whether
> Debian is a technical project where people of
On Sun, 2021-04-18 at 14:04 +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
>
> However, I don't think we're quite in a position to pat ourselves on the
> back here. This vote has once again highlighted some problems in our
> methods for making decisions. I think that we should set up a working
> group to specifica
On Sun, Apr 18, 2021 at 02:04:38PM +0200, Jonathan Carter wrote:
>...
> While this vote caught a lot of heat, essentially it's quite a trivial
> vote. Ultimately it had become a question of if and how we should
> respond to an external situation. I think that as Debian grows, as the
> free software
Hi Kurt
On 2021/04/18 13:20, Debian Project Secretary - Kurt Roeckx wrote:
> The details of the results are available at:
> https://www.debian.org/vote/2021/vote_002
Thanks for all your work on this vote, I believe that you made excellent
decisions as project secretary and it seems that all views
Greetings,
This message is an automated, unofficial publication of vote results.
Official results shall follow, sent in by the vote taker, namely
Debian Project Secretary
This email is just a convenience for the impatient.
I remain, gentle folks,
Your humble servant,
De
dude who spent all his social capital in defending the theoretical
rights of a convicted paedophile
rms called Epstein "a serial rapist", I don't really understand how you
might think those words are "defending".
Best
Le 9 avril 2021 22:41:10 GMT+02:00, Holger Levsen a
écrit :
> so policing the tone *here* is indeed taking sides
Then let's agree to disagree.
--
Pierre-Elliott Bécue
From my phone
On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 10:38:54PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> > But the definition is not the point; the effect is the same: asking
> > "both sides" to "de-escalate" when one party has been subjected to an
> > existential attack by the other, prioritizes "civility" over equity.
>
> I und
Le jeudi 08 avril 2021 à 14:36:09-0700, Dmitry Borodaenko a écrit :
> On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 05:44:59AM +0100, Martina Ferrari wrote:
> > It is so repetitive is boring at this point. One side wants to see a whole
> > group of people dead, the other side is saying that is really bad with very
> > s
On Thu, Apr 08, 2021 at 05:44:59AM +0100, Martina Ferrari wrote:
> It is so repetitive is boring at this point. One side wants to see a whole
> group of people dead, the other side is saying that is really bad with very
> strong words; the centrist chastises the latter for being rude.
The paradox
Asking for de-escalation is not tone-policing.
Tone-policing is using the way some people tend to express their
opinion (generally violently, out of reaction to an attack they suffered
from) as a way to invalidate their opinion or criticize them.
+1
We disagree here about the definition. B
Le mardi 06 avril 2021 à 11:15:29-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :
> > Asking for de-escalation is not tone-policing.
>
> > Tone-policing is using the way some people tend to express their
> > opinion (generally violently, out of reaction to an attack they suffered
> > from) as a way to invalidate t
> Apologies, this is all off-topic for debian-devel
Please take it elsewhere, I do not think that this discussion is of any
value to the project whatsoever and it should have already ended several
posts ago already.
-Jonathan
On Tue, 2021-04-06 at 22:07 +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> On this point I disagree because Steve never posted that publicly,
So if I sent a private mail "fuck off you piece of shit" as a reply to
a message that is okay as long as I don't send it to the public mailing
list?
Either it's acce
[Apologies, this is all off-topic for debian-devel and I should have set an
appropriate MFT from the beginning. Corrected now.]
On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 09:59:55AM +0200, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL wrote:
> Firstly, I was notidied via mail that the message was initially private (but
> it was not, if I
Le mardi 06 avril 2021 à 21:10:09+0200, Jean-Philippe MENGUAL a écrit :
> Some persons consider that "Fuck off, nobody asked you for your shitty
> fascist opinion" is not acceptable publicly regardless the
> circumstances.
On this point I disagree because Steve never posted that publicly, but
he a
We disagree here about the definition. But the definition is not the point;
the effect is the same: asking "both sides" to "de-escalate" when one party
has been subjected to an existential attack by the other, prioritizes
"civility" over equity.
But considering things differently canot help bu
Den tis 6 apr. 2021 kl 20:15 skrev Steve Langasek :
> Transphobia by definition is not civilized and the rules of civilized
> discourse do not apply when dealing with individuals who are external to
> your civilization.
That to me seems like an absolutely extraordinary proposition. The epitome
o
Hi Steve,
On Tue, 2021-04-06 at 11:15 -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> the rules of civilized discourse do not apply when dealing with
> individuals who are external to your civilization.
Please take your imperialist ideology elsewhere.
Thanks,
Ansgar
On Tue, Apr 06, 2021 at 12:47:23PM +0200, Pierre-Elliott Bécue wrote:
> Le lundi 05 avril 2021 à 15:58:37-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :
> > Hi all,
> > After some long thought, I believe this message warrants a public response
> > (and discussion).
> > The facts are these:
> > - an individual
Le lundi 05 avril 2021 à 15:58:37-0700, Steve Langasek a écrit :
> Hi all,
>
> After some long thought, I believe this message warrants a public response
> (and discussion).
>
> The facts are these:
>
> - an individual who is not part of the Debian community sent me (and other
>people) a pr
Hi,
Firstly, I was notidied via mail that the message was initially private
(but it was not, if I understand what you say, and since I read it). I
am sorry for this as your thread should have been private and would not
have created such situation. I would not have had any feedback if it had
b
Hi all,
After some long thought, I believe this message warrants a public response
(and discussion).
The facts are these:
- an individual who is not part of the Debian community sent me (and other
people) a private, unsolicited email sharing his views on the current
topic of the day.
- I
n about
> a statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF
> board.
>
> Voting period starts 2021-04-04 00:00:00 UTC
> Votes must be received by 2021-04-17 23:59:59 UTC
>
> The following ballot is for voting on a statement regarding Richard
> Stallm
; a statement regarding Richard Stallman's readmission to the FSF
> board.
>
> Voting period starts 2021-04-04 00:00:00 UTC
> Votes must be received by 2021-04-17 23:59:59 UTC
>
> The following ballot is for voting on a statement regarding Richard
> Stallman&
I'm asking both of you, and everyone else for that matter, to keep this
off of debian-devel. We're freezing for release, this is debian-devel,
not twitter, if you have disagreements to figure out, please do it
elsewhere.
This makes sense, but unfortunately the email on debian-announce went
o
On 2021/03/26 21:22, Michael Shigorin wrote:
> Jonathan, I hereby demand that the Debian Project gets rid
> of this manipulative, insultive, divisive and libelous member.
> He (them? it?) can't even stand by the rules (pro|im)posed.
I'm asking both of you, and everyone else for that matter, to kee
Hi,
Please descalate, it is an emergency. The RMS debate is very difficult
for many people I guess, painful or, at least, energy consumer. It often
results to ghoughts about the compliance of some mails with the code of
conduct. But those 2 mails are clearly not acceptable from the formal
poi
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 11:23:21AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:14:16PM +0300, Michael Shigorin wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:18:19AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> > > > You absolutely have NO right to speak for all of the community
> > ..so do go and apologize
On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 09:18:19AM -0700, Steve Langasek wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 26, 2021 at 10:52:52AM +0300, Michael Shigorin wrote:
> > > He has shown himself to be misogynist, ableist, and
> > > transphobic, among other serious accusations of impropriety.
> > > These sorts of beliefs have no place
63 matches
Mail list logo
