Hi Stefano, Russ and everyone,
thanks for your interest in this topic. I entirely agree that we should
do better in this area. Since the discussion problem is not specific to
debian-devel, I'm moving this to debian-project.
Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:11:23AM -0700, R
]] Arto Jantunen
> I think the only technical decision that needs to be made at this point
> is removing the Essential mark from sysvinit. The consensus for that
> should be somewhat more reachable, even if the technical implementation
> may have some open questions.
I don't think anybody is opp
On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 12:29:21PM +0300, Arto Jantunen wrote:
> Thomas Goirand writes:
>
> > But that's not the problem. The issue is that there's no
> > outcome, and that it's demotivating. If I read others that
> > what we want to work on isn't a good idea, I will simply
> > not work on that,
On May 09, Arto Jantunen wrote:
> In addition to that it would be nice if everyone could agree to not work
> against a certain init implementation (for example by refusing to
> include the startup file for that init when someone else has written one
> and submited it as a wishlist bug).
I definit
Russ, I flagged your message as one to respond to, but not to debate any
particular point you raise, but rather to thank you for raising it at all,
despite it being potentially controversial. I'd also like to thank you for
tirelessly participating on the list, especially in recent times: I find yo
On Wed, May 09, 2012 at 04:58:53PM +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> We should have had some enthusiastic replies and constructive
> comments on how we could make this happen, how we could improve
> OpenRC to fit our needs. Instead, I have read posts criticizing
> without knowing. If I was Patrick, I'
Thomas Goirand writes:
> But that's not the problem. The issue is that there's no
> outcome, and that it's demotivating. If I read others that
> what we want to work on isn't a good idea, I will simply
> not work on that, and external contributors will run away.
I agree with this. The init syste
On Wed, 2012-05-09 at 16:58 +0800, Thomas Goirand wrote:
> On 05/03/2012 07:23 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> > I agree that's a problem too and I share your feeling that it has been
> > particularly bad in recent discussions like the init system ones.
> To keep on the topic of the init systems, w
On 05/03/2012 07:23 PM, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> I agree that's a problem too and I share your feeling that it has been
> particularly bad in recent discussions like the init system ones.
To keep on the topic of the init systems, we had Patrick Lauer,
a Gentoo developer who I believe knows quite
Well, obviously that wasn't a good idea at all, and I apologize for
bringing it up. Not only are most people rather opposed to having
different social expectations for people contributing to Debian or not,
they're so strongly opposed that the nuance of my original message was
lost. (And, seriousl
On Sun, May 06, 2012 at 09:41:30PM -0400, Chris Knadle wrote:
> FWIW there's a [debian-private] mailing list:
>debian-private: Private discussions among developers
>
> and this list is not archived.
Actually it is:
http://www.debian.org/doc/manuals/developers-reference/resources.html#mailin
On Tue, 2012-05-08 at 15:19, Miles Bader wrote:
> Alexander Wirt writes:
> > I am just speaking for myself as listmaster. But I don't think any
> > DD has more "right" to talk on a mailinglist than anybody else. I
> > won't support such a proposal nor want I participate in it. If you
> > have a pr
Alexander Wirt writes:
> I am just speaking for myself as listmaster. But I don't think any
> DD has more "right" to talk on a mailinglist than anybody else. I
> won't support such a proposal nor want I participate in it. If you
> have a problem with someone on a mailinglist, report it and
> listm
On Mon, 07 May 2012, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> On Sun, 06 May 2012, Chris Knadle wrote:
> > On Thursday, May 03, 2012 02:50:41, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > > Maybe we need a private DD-only list where people interested in
> > > improving our lists can CC their private complaints. listmasters
> > > c
On Sun, 06 May 2012, Chris Knadle wrote:
> On Thursday, May 03, 2012 02:50:41, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
> > Maybe we need a private DD-only list where people interested in
> > improving our lists can CC their private complaints. listmasters
> > could follow the list and take action when they notice t
On Thursday, May 03, 2012 02:50:41, Raphael Hertzog wrote:
...
> When I see that the bad patterns tend to continue, I mail the listmasters
> and ask them to send a warning to to the person. If enough persons
> complain, they might even put a filter if that person doesn't stop.
>
> But it's difficu
On Thursday, May 03, 2012 10:49:22, Gergely Nagy wrote:
> Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
> > 2) "don't feed the troll" + report abuses to listmasters and act
> >
> >accordingly
>
> Of the three, this is the least disruptive, in my opinion. Of course,
> all the problems you mention (social awkwar
On Fri, May 04, 2012 at 10:44:17PM -0400, Scott Kitterman wrote:
> It was implemented because at the time ubuntu-devel had a very low signal to
> noise ratio and developers were getting frustrated (sound familiar). My
> opinion is that it worked pretty well.
> Most of the noise immediately shif
On Friday, May 04, 2012 11:17:24 PM Lisandro Damián Nicanor Pérez Meyer wrote:
> Not enough information to check signature validity. Show Details
> On Jue 03 May 2012 08:23:29 Stefano Zacchiroli escribió:
> [snip]
>
> > 3) public, but contributors-only list
> >
> >
> >
> > This has been implem
On Jue 03 May 2012 08:23:29 Stefano Zacchiroli escribió:
[snip]
> 3) public, but contributors-only list
>
> This has been implemented by other FOSS projects. A notable example is
> Ubuntu who have a split between ubuntu-devel (project members only +
> whitelisting) and ubuntu-devel-discuss (free
Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
> 2) "don't feed the troll" + report abuses to listmasters and act
>accordingly
Of the three, this is the least disruptive, in my opinion. Of course,
all the problems you mention (social awkwardity, effort from the
community and extra burden on listmasters) apply,
Riku Voipio writes:
> On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 01:23:29PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
>> 3) public, but contributors-only list
>
>> This has been implemented by other FOSS projects. A notable example is
>> Ubuntu who have a split between ubuntu-devel (project members only +
>> whitelisting)
On Thu, May 03, 2012 at 01:23:29PM +0200, Stefano Zacchiroli wrote:
> 3) public, but contributors-only list
> This has been implemented by other FOSS projects. A notable example is
> Ubuntu who have a split between ubuntu-devel (project members only +
> whitelisting) and ubuntu-devel-discuss (fre
On Mon, Apr 30, 2012 at 10:11:23AM -0700, Russ Allbery wrote:
> Given recent experiences, I'm also coming around to Ian's position that
> aggressive and confrontational contributions from people who don't
> otherwise seem to be contributing to Debian are part of the problem and
> are not useful, an
Hi,
On Wed, 02 May 2012, Bernhard R. Link wrote:
> Not adding to the noise is reducing the noise. And especially telling
> people that you do not care about their arguments because you they are
> not insiders, which this is from some point of view, is the noise that
> makes an discussion in my eye
* Russ Allbery [120502 18:06]:
> I don't want technical decisions in this project to
> only be discussed by people who enjoy the noise.
That's why it is cruical to get the noise reduced. If in any discussion
there is a DD escalating the flames then there won't be any people with
technical argumen
"Bernhard R. Link" writes:
> * Russ Allbery [120501 18:18]:
>> David Bremner writes:
>>> "Bernhard R. Link" writes:
My suggestion to everyone feeling the need to tell anyone on a public
mailing list that they should shut up because they are no contributors
is thus: Please refrai
* Russ Allbery [120501 18:18]:
> David Bremner writes:
> > "Bernhard R. Link" writes:
>
> >> My suggestion to everyone feeling the need to tell anyone on a public
> >> mailing list that they should shut up because they are no contributors
> >> is thus: Please refrain from any more posts to this
David Bremner writes:
> "Bernhard R. Link" writes:
>> My suggestion to everyone feeling the need to tell anyone on a public
>> mailing list that they should shut up because they are no contributors
>> is thus: Please refrain from any more posts to this discussion.
> I have nothing against this
"Bernhard R. Link" writes:
> My suggestion to everyone feeling the need to tell anyone on a public
> mailing list that they should shut up because they are no contributors
> is thus: Please refrain from any more posts to this discussion.
I have nothing against this principle, and I do this. But
* Russ Allbery [120430 19:11]:
> I want our technical discussions to be welcoming to anyone who has
> information to share and who can bring additional clarity and insight to
> the discussion. But once things start getting heated or people start
> throwing around accusations or verge towards pers
Stefano Zacchiroli writes:
> On Sun, Apr 29, 2012 at 07:18:54PM +0200, Marco d'Itri wrote:
>> Unrelated: you have just shown what poisons Debian and has been keeping
>> us behind innovation for the last years. Not the flamewars themselves,
>> most of us are grown ups and can handle them, but the
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