Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Michael Poole
Ron Johnson writes: > On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 23:40 +1100, Hamish Moffatt wrote: > > On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 01:11:10AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > [snip] > > Well, I've changed my mind actually. An optional package called > > 'hot-babe' is pretty harmless. The images are hardly pornography, >

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 23:40 +1100, Hamish Moffatt wrote: > On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 01:11:10AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: [snip] > Well, I've changed my mind actually. An optional package called > 'hot-babe' is pretty harmless. The images are hardly pornography, > though I certainly couldn't run

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Hamish Moffatt <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > The images are hardly pornography, though I certainly couldn't run > it on my office PC (unless I was trying to get fired). Heh, but frozen-bubble might be even better at that.

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Andreas Barth
* Hamish Moffatt ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [041206 13:45]: > Having said that, this package doesn't really advance Debian in any > way. It won't gain us any users [...]. And that's the reason why I think it should not be included. Cheers, Andi -- http://home.arcor.de/andreas-barth/ PGP 1024/89F

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Bruce Perens
Andrew Suffield wrote: Is Debian a legal entity? The answer is unquestionably yes. Where do you get these ideas? Debian is unquestionably not a legal entity. There is simply no way to avoid being one. An unincorporated association is what your organization i

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Mike Hommey
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 12:24:29PM +0100, Wouter Verhelst <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 04:34:54PM +1100, Anibal Monsalve Salazar wrote: > > On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:06:23PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > >Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > >>It stri

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Hamish Moffatt
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 01:11:10AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > Seems more like there is a more of a minority of uber right > wingers trying to batten down art that offends their sensibility. The > actual project members seem to be more or less taking the sensible > approach, in that t

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Wouter Verhelst
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 04:34:54PM +1100, Anibal Monsalve Salazar wrote: > On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:06:23PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > >Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > >>It strikes me that some of the material in question would be in > >>violation of the Internet policies

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Wouter Verhelst
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 10:01:15PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: > The U. would err on the side of caution given the potential danger. If > the "Hot Babe" package was being distributed from their facilities, > they'd pull the plug. In order to appear to be proactive regarding > harassing, offensive

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Andrew Suffield
Go away and don't come back until you have read the mailing list code of conduct. I do not need a second copy of this entire sodding thread. On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:01:48PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: > Is Debian a legal entity? The answer is unquestionably yes. Where do you get these ideas? De

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Andrew Suffield
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 10:38:51PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > That's true. Debian doesn't *have* to be mirrored *anywhere*. > > We do well to listen to what mirrors say, and what their concerns > are. But we do not do well to guess at what

Re: Sacred Cows [was: Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.]

2004-12-06 Thread Andrew Suffield
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 02:16:58AM -0500, William Ballard wrote: > On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 10:17:29PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: > > Would you please stop asserting that I'm out to FUD you? Given my > > history I would hope that you could take for granted that I want what's > > best for the proje

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 23:29 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > No, that's not true. "reasonable person" (actually, they say > > > "reasonable man") is a quite well-defined concept in American law. > > > > Is "reasonable man" the same in San Franci

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > >But it seems that now you're telling me that you know better than the > >mirror operators which packages will violate their internal policies. > Certainly a good guess is better than nothing. Upon such a list it > would b

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Mike Hommey
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 11:42:15PM -0800, Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > >But it seems that now you're telling me that you know better than the > >mirror operators which packages will violate their internal policies. > > > > > Certainly a good guess is b

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Bruce Perens
Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: But it seems that now you're telling me that you know better than the mirror operators which packages will violate their internal policies. Certainly a good guess is better than nothing. Upon such a list it would be possible to err on the side of caution and al

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > No, that's not true. "reasonable person" (actually, they say > > "reasonable man") is a quite well-defined concept in American law. > > Is "reasonable man" the same in San Francisco and Birmingham, AL? Um, workplace harrasment cases are not the same a

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 02:04 -0500, Kevin Mark wrote: > -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- > Hash: SHA1 > > On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 12:24:19AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > > On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 22:08 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > > > A l

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Mike Hommey
On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 01:11:10AM -0600, Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Seems more like there is a more of a minority of uber right > wingers trying to batten down art that offends their sensibility. The > actual project members seem to be more or less taking the sensible >

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 23:18 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > Don't worry, that's not how hostile environment harassment law works. > > > IIRC, it's based on a reasonable person test, and is extremely > > > complex. > > > > It all depends on your

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Kevin Mark
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Mon, Dec 06, 2004 at 12:24:19AM -0600, Ron Johnson wrote: > On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 22:08 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > > > A legal opinion on this matter would be a good idea... > > > > Keep in

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > Don't worry, that's not how hostile environment harassment law works. > > IIRC, it's based on a reasonable person test, and is extremely > > complex. > > It all depends on your definition of "reasonable". No, that's not true. "reasonable person" (ac

Sacred Cows [was: Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.]

2004-12-06 Thread William Ballard
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 10:17:29PM -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: > Would you please stop asserting that I'm out to FUD you? Given my > history I would hope that you could take for granted that I want what's > best for the project. I love how Debian has no sacred cows. It's one of the reasons I stu

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Kevin Mark
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 10:07:59PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > It shows that sexual harassment in the workplace is one of their big > > concerns. And rightly so. Awards have been as large as $30 >

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 22:26:08 -0800, Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: >> When invited to *reduce* uncertainty and doubt, by securing a >> genuine legal opinion, you said it was Not Your Job. >> >> > What I continue to object to is that there is a minority who b

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 22:44 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > Seems like if the person being offended has the sole > > discretion about what is offensive, trhewn hell, we might as well > > hang up our keyboards and go home, cause anyone ca

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Mon, 2004-12-06 at 00:31 -0600, Manoj Srivastava wrote: > On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 21:37:41 -0800, Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: [snip] > Seems like if the person being offended has the sole > discretion about what is offensive, trhewn hell, we might as well > hang up our keyboards

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Manoj Srivastava <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Seems like if the person being offended has the sole > discretion about what is offensive, trhewn hell, we might as well > hang up our keyboards and go home, cause anyone can be offended by > anything. Don't worry, that's not how hostile en

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Manoj Srivastava
On Sun, 05 Dec 2004 21:37:41 -0800, Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> said: > 1. (*) text/plain ( ) text/html > Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: >>> It strikes me that some of the material in question would be in >>> violation of the Internet policies of most institutions or >>> companies that host ou

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > I have not so far seen what you are going to tell the mirror operators > so that they know what packages to reject. Surely you can not believe > that they are all responsible to dig this information up on their > own. That would be very unsympathetic towa

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 22:33 -0800, Bruce Perens wrote: > Ron Johnson wrote: > > >That's true. Debian doesn't *have* to be mirrored *anywhere*. > > > > > I have not so far seen what you are going to tell the mirror operators > so that they know what packages to reject. Surely you can not believ

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > That's true. Debian doesn't *have* to be mirrored *anywhere*. We do well to listen to what mirrors say, and what their concerns are. But we do not do well to guess at what they might say, on the basis of half-understood and unsupported claims about what

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > What I continue to object to is that there is a minority who believe > that questionable content is desirable in the distribution, but they > refuse to support themselves by doing the legal homework to support > the content they desire. The entire project

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Bruce Perens
Ron Johnson wrote: That's true. Debian doesn't *have* to be mirrored *anywhere*. I have not so far seen what you are going to tell the mirror operators so that they know what packages to reject. Surely you can not believe that they are all responsible to dig this information up on their own.

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Mike Hommey
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:38:51PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Anibal Monsalve Salazar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > For one, the Australian laws prohibite any web site in Australia to host > > pornographic material. > > > > See http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Bruce Perens
Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: When invited to *reduce* uncertainty and doubt, by securing a genuine legal opinion, you said it was Not Your Job. What I continue to object to is that there is a minority who believe that questionable content is desirable in the distribution, but they refuse to supp

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 22:08 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > A legal opinion on this matter would be a good idea... > > Keep in mind that Debian is not the U in question; Debian has no > obligation to conform to some U's self-censorship policies.

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Would you please stop asserting that I'm out to FUD you? Given my > history I would hope that you could take for granted that I want > what's best for the project. Sure; you want what's best, and you seem to think that what's best right now is to make pe

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Bruce Perens
Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: Good grief, this is one of the murkiest areas of American law, and you think that anyone should be convinced of your FUD this way? Would you please stop asserting that I'm out to FUD you? Given my history I would hope that you could take for granted that I want

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Ron Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > A legal opinion on this matter would be a good idea... Keep in mind that Debian is not the U in question; Debian has no obligation to conform to some U's self-censorship policies.

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > It shows that sexual harassment in the workplace is one of their big > concerns. And rightly so. Awards have been as large as $30 > Million. And it embarasses the institution, which creates all sorts of > havoc by driving people and even financial donors

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Ron Johnson
On Sun, 2004-12-05 at 21:42 -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > > > 8. Obscenity and Harassment: GW computing systems and services may > > not be used in an obscene, harassing or otherwise improper manner. > > GW computing systems and services

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-06 Thread Bruce Perens
The telling part of the GWU policy is: This provision explicitly prohibits any behavior that is intended to or has the effect of creating an intimidating, hostile, or offensive environment because of an individual's sex, race, color, religion, national origin, age, pregnancy, sexual orientation

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > 8. Obscenity and Harassment: GW computing systems and services may > not be used in an obscene, harassing or otherwise improper manner. > GW computing systems and services shall not be used in a manner that > discriminates against another

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Anibal Monsalve Salazar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > For one, the Australian laws prohibite any web site in Australia to host > pornographic material. > > See http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/cens1.html Upon reading this carefully, it says that the Australian Government may order the suppres

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Anibal Monsalve Salazar <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > For one, the Australian laws prohibite any web site in Australia to host > pornographic material. > > See http://www.efa.org.au/Issues/Censor/cens1.html Do we have evidence--actual evidence--that this provision applies to cartoons? Keep in m

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Bruce Perens
Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: It strikes me that some of the material in question would be in violation of the Internet policies of most institutions or companies that host our mirrors, as well as the applicable national laws. Can you please provide some concrete evidence of thi

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Anibal Monsalve Salazar
On Sun, Dec 05, 2004 at 09:06:23PM -0800, Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: >Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > >>It strikes me that some of the material in question would be in >>violation of the Internet policies of most institutions or companies >>that host our mirrors, as well as the applicabl

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: > > > Either way, if you wish to claim there is a legal problem with a > > given package, it is your responsibility to substantiate your > > claim beyond raising FUD. > I doubt it will be the last questionable package that is

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Bruce Perens
Thomas Bushnell BSG wrote: Either way, if you wish to claim there is a legal problem with a given package, it is your responsibility to substantiate your claim beyond raising FUD. I doubt it will be the last questionable package that is submitted, and would like to handle the issue before the nex

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > It strikes me that some of the material in question would be in > violation of the Internet policies of most institutions or companies > that host our mirrors, as well as the applicable national laws. Can you please provide some concrete evidence of this

Re: Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Thomas Bushnell BSG
Bruce Perens <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes: > 1. An unincorporated association that has a contractual relationship > with a public-benefit corporation. > 2. A division of a public-benefit corporation. Either way, if you wish to claim there is a legal problem with a given package, it is your responsi

Debian's status as a legal entity and how it could effect a potential defense.

2004-12-05 Thread Bruce Perens
Andrew Suffield wrote: The project does not exist as a legal entity. It's more complicated than you think. Is Debian a legal entity? The answer is unquestionably yes. The only question is what kind of legal entity it is. The most likely two are: 1. An unincorporated association that has a contrac