On 2019-03-21 17:36 +, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
> I haven’t once mentioned Jews. I’ve mentioned Israelis which are citizens of
> Israel. There are Jews worldwide especially of the Orthodox that 100% condemn
> the existence of Israel. This isn’t a Jew vs Muslim issue. This is a Israel vs
> Muslims
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 08:57:27PM +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> Hi Steve,
> > But as a fellow Debian Developer, I must object to the implication that
> > this particular statement is antisemitic. It is not antisemitic to
> > object to the policies of the Israeli government. It is not antisemi
> > > ...
> >
> > From our policy:
> > * The mailing lists exist to foster the development and use of Debian.
> > Non-constructive or off-topic messages, along with other abuses, are not
> > welcome.
> > * Try not to flame; it is not polite.
> > * Use common sense all the time.
> >
> > From t
Hi Ștefano,
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 1:09 PM, Stefano Rivera wrote:
> Hi Giacomo (2019.03.21_12:49:20_+0200)
>> So they relay much on screening (you will see at airport: many questions,
>> different steps and queues, but you still can keep liquids).
>> I really doubts you will have the laptop con
Hi Giacomo (2019.03.21_12:49:20_+0200)
> So they relay much on screening (you will see at airport: many questions,
> different steps and queues, but you still can keep liquids).
> I really doubts you will have the laptop confiscated for "no particular
> reasons". As I wrote, Israeli security is ver
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Steve Langasek wrote:
Hi Steve,
> On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 07:47:42PM +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> > On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote:
>
> > > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that
> > > you're using?
>
> > No, this is somethin
Hi Alexander,
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 07:47:42PM +0100, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote:
> > Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that
> > you're using?
> No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 12:10 PM, Alexander Wirt wrote:
> On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
>
>> So just to clarify your stance is that stating historically factual
>> statements about human rights violations in a country where the project has
>> decided to whole an event and where peop
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
> So just to clarify your stance is that stating historically factual
> statements about human rights violations in a country where the project has
> decided to whole an event and where people of specific faiths and ethnicity
> will be excluded is off l
I appreciate the reply, but apologize but I'm still confused, and I think the
lack of a definition is a cop-out and I find it ironic that someone who has the
ability to moderate discussion cannot even define the rubric they are using to
do so!
> Israel has been murdering Muslims for
> countless
So just to clarify your stance is that stating historically factual statements
about human rights violations in a country where the project has decided to
whole an event and where people of specific faiths and ethnicity will be
excluded is off limits? Because that’s what your quoted statement wa
On Thu, 21 Mar 2019, Ghassan_Kanafani wrote:
> Hi Alex,
>
> Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that
> you're using?
No, this is something that can't be pressed in a proper definition. But if
people think that sentences like:
"Either way this ignores the fact tha
Hi Alex,
Can you provide the definitions of anti-semitism and "antirealism" that you're
using?
Too often the excuse of anti-semitism is used as a smokescreen to avoid
criticism of the Israeli government and their policies. (See the many
thinkpieces written about Ilhan Omar in the USA)
I have
Nasir El-Amin writes:
> Israeli is a nationality not the faith of Judaism. I’m criticizing
> citizens (which practice a variety of faiths) of a genocidal apartheid
> state that’s killed tens of thousands of Muslims.
The same argument can be made about US treatment of Native Americans, and
while
Why do we have a code of conduct if list maintainers are going to depart from
it and make their own rules? You’ve have not assumed good faith and your not
allowing open discussion. https://www.debian.org/code_of_conduct
Bringing up concerns of Debian Project having an event in a place that exclu
Hi,
On 21/03/2019 18:10, Nasir El-Amin
wrote:
This isn’t true and
your going to hear claims that Muslims are blocked by Israel
being false from Israelis as they like to pretend it doesn’t
occur
I would oppose a Debconf in the United States too because the current
exclusionary and oppressive policies. This isn’t about faith as some are trying
to make it out to be it’s about acts of fascism
Anyways per the list maintainer I’m no longer allowed to discuss this issue or
criticize Debconf
Hi,
this is a warning and note from us listmasters. Please come back to a
civilized discussion style. I don't want to see any antisemitism or
antisrealism on that list. Either you have something substantial to add to
the _debconf_ discussion or please don't take part in that discussion.
Otherwise
I’ll now be silent the list maintainer says if I discuss apartheid or any
further criticism of Israel that myself and anyone else critical will be banned
from Debian mailing lists.
So much for the social contract and so much for anti-fascism. It’s a very sad
day for the Debian project it’s shut
It is good to read this civil discussion on such a difficult topic.
Maybe obvious, but I'll state it anyway: When deciding not to accept a
bid based on a moral principle, (instead of some Debian specific
criteria) I hope all remember that principle might stand for future
decisions, as a preceda
Jonathan,
It’s not just what their government is doing it’s what the citizens themselves
by being on occupied land are doing. All of Israel is occupied land not once
inch is fairly staked. By becoming a Israel citizen and living in Israel all
Israelis take part in the oppression. In fact it’s s
> Respectfully speaking, being vocal against apartheid and international
crimes is the opposite of hate speech.
That is completely true. And yet alongside the statements that reasonably
match your description, a whole other set of statements equating Israeli
citizenship with being Nazi collaborato
On 2019/03/21 19:36, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
> I haven’t once mentioned Jews. I’ve mentioned Israelis which are
> citizens of Israel. There are Jews worldwide especially of the Orthodox
> that 100% condemn the existence of Israel. This isn’t a Jew vs Muslim
> issue. This is a Israel vs Muslims issue a
On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 2:22 AM Ghassan_Kanafani
wrote:
>
> Respectfully speaking, being vocal against apartheid and international crimes
> is the opposite of hate speech. Furthermore, I think bringing up other
> countries is off-topic.
I cannot imagine how you can ignore taiwan and care about
Dear Nasir, please don't impose your political stance on others, it's
perfectly fine for an unrelated event to be held in places with major
conflicts.
Debconf held in _insert_a_government_'s jurisdiction area does NOT mean
Debian support _insert_a_government_ in any way, even in places such as the
Hi,
On 21/03/2019 16:52, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
There is no such thing as an innocent Israeli just like there is no such
thing as a innocent Nazi. Silence is complicity and Israelis aren’t just
silent in these issues they are supportive of them because they support
the existence of their aparth
Again another terrible comparison not even deserving of a response.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 10:30 AM, 林博仁 wrote:
> Roger Shimizu 於 2019年3月22日 週五 上午1:14寫道：
>
>> I'm sorry you didn't say so when we had debconf in Taiwan, where ever
>> occupied by Spanish, Nederlanders, Japanese, and Chinese.
>> T
Hello Jonathan,
I haven’t once mentioned Jews. I’ve mentioned Israelis which are citizens of
Israel. There are Jews worldwide especially of the Orthodox that 100% condemn
the existence of Israel. This isn’t a Jew vs Muslim issue. This is a Israel vs
Muslims issue and the fact that Israel exists
Roger Shimizu 於 2019年3月22日 週五 上午1:14寫道：
> I'm sorry you didn't say so when we had debconf in Taiwan, where ever
> occupied by Spanish, Nederlanders, Japanese, and Chinese.
> That didn't prevent a success conference.
>
Thank god that there's no China-nese DDs complaining that Debconf18 is held
at
Hi Nasir
On 2019/03/21 18:52, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
> Any DD who lives in Israel is a direct contributor financially and
> morally to apartheid and genocide against the Palestinian people.
I sympathise with your views but you're stepping over a line here. Many
Jewish people and Israelites do not a
Israeli is a nationality not the faith of Judaism. I’m criticizing citizens
(which practice a variety of faiths) of a genocidal apartheid state that’s
killed tens of thousands of Muslims.
Last year alone Israel killed 290 innocent Palestinians[1] which meets the
definition of genocide.
https:/
Roger,
Respectfully speaking, being vocal against apartheid and international crimes
is the opposite of hate speech. Furthermore, I think bringing up other
countries is off-topic.
As Avi correctly mentioned before,
> I think we can safely agree that past actions are not the same as ongoing
>
On Fri, Mar 22, 2019 at 1:59 AM Nasir El-Amin
wrote:
>
> Here one Palestinian user of Debian points out he would be excluded:
> https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/
>
> How about we agree that Debconf never take place in a country that wou
Here one Palestinian user of Debian points out he would be excluded:
[https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/](https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/b3cen2/debconf20_to_be_hosted_in_haifa_israel/eiyxby6/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=ios_app)
Thank you for these emails.
Providing tacit approval for apartheid, ethnic cleansing, and international
crimes ought to be antithetical with Debconf's - and the entire Debian
project's - mission. I share Nasir El-Amin's frustration and feeling of
betrayal over this poor decision, and am also ac
Any DD who lives in Israel is a direct contributor financially and morally to
apartheid and genocide against the Palestinian people.
https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/06/13/israel-apparent-war-crimes-gaza
There is no sugar coating the oppression that is the people of Israel and the
impact their pre
No there isn’t a better forum because our social contract says we don’t hide
issues. Someone would like to downplay the apartheid and sweep this discussion
elsewhere.
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 9:35 AM, Avi wrote:
> I think we can safely agree that past actions are not the same as ongoing
> acti
That’s not even a logical example we’re talking about an ongoing apartheid and
continued theft of land by a illegitimate state that’s violating international
law and treaties. Your trying to water down what’s going on in Israel. United
Nations has described Israel as an apartheid state. When you
I think we can safely agree that past actions are not the same as ongoing
actions. The objections raised include ongoing actions, not just past ones.
I think we can also agree that entrenched parties aren't going to convince
each other about the rights and wrongs of Israel via this mailing list. Is
On 3/21/19 5:10 PM, Nasir El-Amin wrote:
> Debian having a conference in contested land where military conflict and
> oppressive acts are occurring is unacceptable.
According to this logic, you wouldn't be allowed to host a DebConf in almost any
country in the world as almost any stretch of land
This isn’t true and your going to hear claims that Muslims are blocked by
Israel being false from Israelis as they like to pretend it doesn’t occur.
The reality however is Israel even blocks Muslims from non middle eastern
countries like Indonesia:
https://mobile.abc.net.au/news/2018-06-05/isra
On Thu, Mar 21, 2019 at 11:49:20AM +0100, Giacomo Catenazzi wrote:
> What I find nice of Israeli security policies, it is they make much less
> security theater, and much more (effective) screening. BTW, one of the large
> income of Israel is tourism, so it has not many very closed policies.
>
>
On 21.03.2019 10:13, John Paul Adrian Glaubitz wrote:
Hi Tzafrir!
Thanks for organizing DebConf20 in Israel, I'm looking forward to
traveling to Haifa, the Silicon Valley of the Middle East.
Now, I have done some initial research regarding traveling to Israel
on the website of my country's depa
Hi Tzafrir!
Thanks for organizing DebConf20 in Israel, I'm looking forward to
traveling to Haifa, the Silicon Valley of the Middle East.
Now, I have done some initial research regarding traveling to Israel
on the website of my country's department of foreign affairs, I'm
traveling from Germany.
Yesterday Nasir El-Amin wrote to this list a message.
I was not subscribed to the list and thus cannot reply directly.
The message did raise one relevant issue:
> Palestinian or Muslim Debian contributors won’t be allowed
by Israel to atten
On 2019-03-21 01:13, Wookey wrote:
> If that's wrong/out of date, then fair enough - I'll consider joining
> you,
That would be great!
I found the information "somewhere on the internet", so neither
am I sure, whether the connection still exists, nor can we be
sure, that it will exist in around 1
On 2019-03-21 01:19, Jonas Smedegaard wrote:
> Quoting W. Martin Borgert (2019-03-21 00:00:29)
> > I plan to go by train and ferry. AFAIK, it's possible to go by
> > train to Ancona, Italy, then ferry to Piraeus, Greece, a short
> > bus trip to Lavrio, Greece, finally other ferry to Haifa.
>
> I'd
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