ot explicitly
defined such an operation. If Alice paid Bob and then convinces the
issuer that Bob cheated her, the issuer could refuse to honor the Db
deposit or exchange operation. From the recipient's perspective, his
cash is at risk at least until he has spent it or exchanged it out of
t
>From: cyphrpunk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Oct 27, 2005 9:15 PM
>To: "James A. Donald" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Cc: cryptography@metzdowd.com, [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: On Digital Cash-like Payment Systems
>On 10/26/05, James A. Donald <[EMAIL PROTE
On Fri, Oct 28, 2005 at 02:18:43PM -0700, cyphrpunk wrote:
> In particular I have concerns about the finality and irreversibility
> of payments, given that the issuer keeps track of each token as it
> progresses through the system. Whenever one token is exchanged for a
> new one, the issuer record
One other point with regard to Daniel Nagy's paper at
http://www.epointsystem.org/~nagydani/ICETE2005.pdf
A good way to organize papers like this is to first present the
desired properties of systems like yours (and optionally show that
other systems fail to meet one or more of these properties);
On 10/26/05, James A. Donald <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> How does one inflate a key?
Just make it bigger by adding redundancy and padding, before you
encrypt it and store it on your disk. That way the attacker who wants
to steal your keyring sees a 4 GB encrypted file which actually holds
about a
On 10/25/05, Travis H. <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> More on topic, I recently heard about a scam involving differential
> reversibility between two remote payment systems. The fraudster sends
> you an email asking you to make a Western Union payment to a third
> party, and deposits the requested a
John Kelsey wrote:
From: cyphrpunk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Digital wallets will require real security in user PCs. Still I don't
see why we don't already have this problem with online banking and
similar financial services. Couldn't a virus today steal people's
passwords and command their banks to tr
--
Steve Schear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Yes, but unfortunately it is not clear at all that
> courts would find the opposite, either. If a lawsuit
> names the currency issuer as a defendant, which it
> almost certainly would, a judge might order the
> issuer's finances frozen or impose other meas
IL PROTECTED]
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Daniel A. Nagy)
Subject:Re: [fc-discuss] Financial Cryptography Update: On
Digital Cash-like Payment Systems
> One intresting security measure protecting valuable digital assets (WM
> protects private keys this way) is "inflating" the
> If you have
> to be that confident in your computer security to use the payment
> system, it's not going to have many clients.
Maybe the trusted computing platform (palladium) may have something to
offer after all, namely enabling naive users to use services that
require confidence in their own
e held by third parties and return the
| ill-gotten gains to the victim of theft or fraud. Depending on the
| full operational details of the system, Daniel Nagy's epoints might be
| vulnerable to such legal actions.
This is no different from the case with cash today. If there is a way to
prove
>From: cyphrpunk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Oct 24, 2005 5:58 PM
>To: John Kelsey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Subject: Re: [fc-discuss] Financial Cryptography Update: On Digital Cash-like
>Payment Systems
...
>Digital wallets will require real security in user PCs. S
One intresting security measure protecting valuable digital assets (WM
protects private keys this way) is "inflating" them before encryption.
While it does not protect agains trojan applications, it does a surprisingly
good job at reducing attacks following the key logging + file theft pattern.
T
On Mon, Oct 24, 2005 at 02:58:32PM -0700, cyphrpunk wrote:
> Digital wallets will require real security in user PCs. Still I don't
> see why we don't already have this problem with online banking and
> similar financial services. Couldn't a virus today steal people's
> passwords and command their
the ecash once the user opens the
wallet manually. There are several kinds of malicious activities that
are possible, from simply deleting the cash to broadcasting it in
encrypted form such as by IRC. Perhaps it could even engage in the
quixotic action of redistributing some of the cash among the
On 10/24/05, Steve Schear <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> I don't think E-gold ever held out its system as non-reversible with proper
> court order. All reverses I am aware happened either due to some technical
> problem with their system or an order from a court of competence in the
> matter at hand
From: cyphrpunk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
Sent: Oct 24, 2005 2:14 PM
Subject: Re: [fc-discuss] Financial Cryptography Update: On Digital Cash-like
Payment Systems
On 10/22/05, Ian G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>Note that e-gold, which originally sold non-reversibility as a key
>ben
At 11:14 AM 10/24/2005, cyphrpunk wrote:
Note that e-gold, which originally sold non-reversibility as a key
benefit of the system, found that this feature attracted Ponzi schemes
and fraudsters of all stripes, and eventually it was forced to reverse
transactions and freeze accounts. It's not cle
On 10/22/05, Ian G <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> R. Hirschfeld wrote:
> > This is not strictly correct. The payer can reveal the blinding
> > factor, making the payment traceable. I believe Chaum deliberately
> > chose for one-way untraceability (untraceable by the payee but not by
> > the payer)
R. Hirschfeld wrote:
Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:31:39 -0700
From: cyphrpunk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
2. Cash payments are final. After the fact, the paying party has no
means to reverse the payment. We call this property of cash
transactions _irreversibility_.
Certainly Chaum ecash ha
At 11:17 AM -0700 10/21/05, someone who can't afford a vowel, Alex, ;-)
expressed his anal glands thusly in my general direction:
>You're such an asshole.
My, my. Tetchy, this morning, oh vowelless one...
At 11:17 AM -0700 10/21/05, cyphrpunk wrote:
>This is what you characterized as a "unitary
anner. If one party does not send his sig, the other
can go to the TTP and get it. Since this option exists, there is no
incentive for the parties not to complete the transaction and hence
the TTP will in practice almost never be used. This one does require
the TTP to exist and his public key
On 10/20/05, R.A. Hettinga <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> At 12:32 AM +0200 10/21/05, Daniel A. Nagy wrote:
> >Could you give us a reference to this one, please?
>
> Google is your friend, dude.
>
> Before making unitary global claims like you just did, you might consider
> consulting the literature.
> Date: Thu, 20 Oct 2005 11:31:39 -0700
> From: cyphrpunk <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > 2. Cash payments are final. After the fact, the paying party has no
> > means to reverse the payment. We call this property of cash
> > transactions _irreversibility_.
>
> Cer
At 2:36 AM +0200 10/21/05, Daniel A. Nagy wrote:
>With all due respect, this was unnecessarily rude, unfair and unwarranted.
This is the *cypherpunks* list, guy... :-)
>Silvio Micali is a very prolific author and he published more than one paper
>on more than one exchange protocol
And I just got
ion than is strictly necessary for obtaining a receipt.
In general, I think that one should be very careful with piling up
cryptographic operations and additional back-and-forth communication steps
in a payment protocol, because it may easily render it unpractical. There
are reasons why ther
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 03:36:54PM -0700, cyphrpunk wrote:
> As far as the issue of receipts in Chaumian ecash, there have been a
> couple of approaches discussed.
>
> The simplest goes like this. If Alice will pay Bob, Bob supplies Alice
> with a blinded proto-coin, along with a signed statement,
At 12:32 AM +0200 10/21/05, Daniel A. Nagy wrote:
>Could you give us a reference to this one, please?
Google is your friend, dude.
Before making unitary global claims like you just did, you might consider
consulting the literature. It's out there.
Cheers,
RAH
--
-
R. A. Hetting
As far as the issue of receipts in Chaumian ecash, there have been a
couple of approaches discussed.
The simplest goes like this. If Alice will pay Bob, Bob supplies Alice
with a blinded proto-coin, along with a signed statement, "I will
perform service X if Alice supplies me with a mint signature
On Thu, Oct 20, 2005 at 05:19:49PM -0400, R.A. Hettinga wrote:
> BTW, you can exchange cash for goods, or other chaumian bearer certificates
> -- or receipts, for that matter, with a simple exchange protocol. Micali
> did one for email ten years ago, for instance.
Could you give us a
y wish people would actually read what people have written
about these things for the last, what, 20 years now...
BTW, you can exchange cash for goods, or other chaumian bearer certificates
-- or receipts, for that matter, with a simple exchange protocol. Micali
did one for email ten years ago, for in
On Thu, 20 Oct 2005, cyphrpunk wrote:
system without excessive complications. Only the fifth point, the
ability for outsiders to monitor the amount of cash in circulation, is
not satisfied. But even then, the ecash mint software, and procedures
and controls followed by the issuer, could be
Thank you for the detailed critique!
I think, we're not talking about the same Chaumian cash. The referred 1988
paper proposes an off-line system, where double spending compromises
anonymity and results in transaction reversal. I agree with you that it was
a mistake on my part to deny its pe
ilar schemes lack some key characteristics of paper-based
> cash, rendering them economically infeasible. Let us quickly enumerate
> the most important properties of cash:
>
> 1. "Money doesn't smell." Cash payments are -- potentially --
> _anonymous_ and untraceab
cyphrpunk wrote:
If this is the model, my concern is that in practice it will often be
the case that there will be few intermediate exchanges. Particularly
in the early stages of the system, there won't be that much to buy.
Someone may accept epoints for payment but the first thing he will do
is
I will provide a detailed answer a bit later, but the short answer is that
anonymity and untraceability are not major selling points, as experience
shows. After all, ATMs could easily record and match to the user the serial
numbers of each banknote they hand out, yet, there seems to be no preferenc
am strongly convinced that banks cannot, will not and should not be the
> principal issuers of digital cash-like payment vehicles. If you need
> explaination, I'm willing to provide it. I do not expect payment tokens to
> originate from withdrawals and end their life cycles being depo
to everyone, not just banking insiders.
>
> Some aspects are similar to Dan Simon's proposed ecash system from
> Crypto 96, in particular using knowledge of a secret such as a hash
> pre-image to represent possession of the cash. Simon's system is
> covered by patent n
> Just presented at ICETE2005 by Daniel Nagy:
>
> http://www.epointsystem.org/~nagydani/ICETE2005.pdf
>
> Abstract. In present paper a novel approach to on-line payment is
> presented that tackles some issues of digital cash that have, in the
> author s opinion, contrib
--- begin forwarded text
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: undisclosed-recipients: ;
Subject: [fc-discuss] Financial Cryptography Update: On Digital Cash-like
Payment Systems
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: Sat, 8 Oct 2005 18:30:56 +0100 (BST)
(( Financial Cryptography Update: On Digital Cash
Everyone does this openly over here. Anything less than $500k or so
isn't even worth thinking about, since as a kidnap victim, you're sold
for about that much.
I really don't see why it's worthy of an article.
I've been buying cash from other contractors, as well as
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--- begin forwarded text
Date: Thu, 23 Dec 2004 03:15:25 -0600 (CST)
From: InfoSec News <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: isn@attrition.org
Subject: [ISN] Robbers' quandary: Getting rid of the cash
Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sender: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
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Wed, 22 Dec 2004 09:52:41 -0600
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-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1
- --- begin forwarded text
Date: Tue, 23 Nov 2004 05:24:09 -0600 (CST)
From: InfoSec News <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [ISN] Hackers Pocket W16 Billion in Cyber Cash
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Alan Barrett <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> writes:
>On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, John Kelsey wrote:
>>but there doesn't seem to be a clean process for determining how
>>skilled an attacker needs to be to, say, scan my finger once, and
>>produce either a fake finger or a machine for projecting a fake
>>fingerprint i
On Tue, 12 Oct 2004, John Kelsey wrote:
> but there doesn't seem to be a clean process for determining how
> skilled an attacker needs to be to, say, scan my finger once, and
> produce either a fake finger or a machine for projecting a fake
> fingerprint into the reader.
... or a replacement reade
>From: Tyler Durden <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>Sent: Oct 12, 2004 1:43 PM
>To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>Subject: Re: Cash, Credit -- or Prints?
...
>Very interesting question. I'd bet almost any amount of money that it's
>fairly trivial to simply
D
From: Frank Siebenlist <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: "R.A. Hettinga" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
CC: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: Cash, Credit -- or Prints?
Date: Mon, 11 Oct 2004 17:34:19 -0700
Can anyone explain how sophisticated those fingerprint readers are?
_print/0,,SB109744462285841431,00.html>
The Wall Street Journal
October 11, 2004
Cash, Credit -- or Prints?
Fingerprints May Replace
Money, Passwords and Keys;
One Downside: Gummi Fakes
By WILLIAM M. BULKELEY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
October 11, 2004; Page B1
Fingerprints aren't ju
<http://online.wsj.com/article_print/0,,SB109744462285841431,00.html>
The Wall Street Journal
October 11, 2004
Cash, Credit -- or Prints?
Fingerprints May Replace
Money, Passwords and Keys;
One Downside: Gummi Fakes
By WILLIAM M. BULKELEY
Staff Reporter of THE WALL STREET JOURNAL
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