On Dec 20, 7:09 am, Tim Daly wrote:
> It is the algebra language in the Axiom project called
> Spad.http://axiom-developer.org
> It is open source
There is also Qi (http://www.lambdassociates.org/qilisp.htm). It is
now morphing into Shen (http://www.lambdassociates.org/Shen/
appeal.htm) with C
You can use
http://docs.google.com/viewer?url=http://url_to_pdf_or_doc_or_xls_or_something
to see those documents converted to html. Works ok in most of the cases,
even on my phone.
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On Tue, Dec 21, 2010 at 12:16 AM, Sean Corfield wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>> But that would leave people with the misleading impression that a pdf
>> file is an adequate choice, even when I'm on my mobile ...
>
> It's a perfectly adequate choice on my mobile... I
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 8:23 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
> But that would leave people with the misleading impression that a pdf
> file is an adequate choice, even when I'm on my mobile ...
It's a perfectly adequate choice on my mobile... I read PDFs all the
time on my phone.
(sorry, I've been trying
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 10:39 PM, javajosh wrote:
>
>
> On Dec 20, 10:53 am, Aaron Bedra wrote:
>> On 12/20/10 1:47 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>>
>> > On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Aaron Bedra wrote:
>> >> On 12/20/10 1:39 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>> >>> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Meikel Brandm
On Dec 20, 10:53 am, Aaron Bedra wrote:
> On 12/20/10 1:47 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>
> > On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Aaron Bedra wrote:
> >> On 12/20/10 1:39 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
> >>> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer
> >>> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> if you prefer text
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 5:18 PM, Steve wrote:
> On Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:47:56 AM UTC+11, Ken Wesson wrote:
>>
>> But some of this underlying-philosophy stuff still seems to be locked
>> up in videos and presentations in disparate places, invisible to
>> Google's search and not even all lin
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 4:49 PM, Mike Meyer
wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:27:11 -0500
> Ken Wesson wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Mike Meyer
>> wrote:
>> > On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:26:49 +0100
>> > Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
>> >> http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pd
On Tuesday, December 21, 2010 4:47:56 AM UTC+11, Ken Wesson wrote:
>
> But some of this underlying-philosophy stuff still seems to be locked
> up in videos and presentations in disparate places, invisible to
> Google's search and not even all linked from one place (the closest to
> "one place" bein
On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 16:27:11 -0500
Ken Wesson wrote:
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Mike Meyer
> wrote:
> > On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:26:49 +0100
> > Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
> >> http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
> >
> > Thanks for the link.
> >
> > To bad it made Tufte ki
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 4:10 PM, Laurent PETIT wrote:
>
>
> 2010/12/20 Ken Wesson
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:26 AM, Tim Daly
>> wrote:
>> > On 12/19/2010 10:53 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>> >> Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable
>> >> collections. Two lists are equa
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 3:00 PM, Mike Meyer
wrote:
> On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:26:49 +0100
> Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
>> http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
>
> Thanks for the link.
>
> To bad it made Tufte kill a kitten. I had forgotten there was a
> textual representation with a
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
> I did find the format problematic. I much prefer stuff I can simply
> browse in my web browser as normal, without involving special plugins
> or external applications and without the files themselves being
> enormous, as videos and pdfs are wont
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:55 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
> I am amazed that you find a link to a scholarly article inappropriate.
I didn't find the link inappropriate. No doubt the content is just peachy.
I did find the format problematic. I much prefer stuff I can simply
browse in my web browser as nor
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:10 PM, Tim Robinson wrote:
> Hi Ken,
>
> I'd like to nominate you on behalf of the Clojure community to convert
> all non-text resources into text only resources.
Sorry, but I must decline; I simply don't have the time to do so. As I
already mentioned I don't even have t
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:57 PM, Alyssa Kwan wrote:
> What things "normally mean" has no place in computer science. You
> have to embrace the jargon to be able to think rationally in the
> space. This in no way detracts from this discussion.
I meant what things "normally mean" in computer scien
2010/12/20 Ken Wesson
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:26 AM, Tim Daly
> wrote:
> > On 12/19/2010 10:53 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
> >> Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable
> >> collections. Two lists are equal if they have the same contents in the
> >> same order -- but then
I generally find it easier to get the "bigger picture" of something when I'm
stepping a little bit back.
With programming languages, sometimes it can involve discovering language
n+1 to give some new perspective on language n, and getting the "ah ah"
moment with language n.
For example, it's hard
On 12/20/2010 1:42 PM, Tim Robinson wrote:
I think too many posters here are equating Clojure with Lisp.
Clojure is a LISP, but it is not LISP itself.
Since I've worked in a dozen "Lisps" (golden common, VMLisp, Lisp370,
Zetalisp, MacLisp, Lisp 1.5, Orien Lisp, etc.) I don't think I would
equa
On Mon, 20 Dec 2010 19:26:49 +0100
Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
> Hi,
>
> if you prefer text over talk:
>
> http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
Thanks for the link.
To bad it made Tufte kill a kitten. I had forgotten there was a
textual representation with a lower information de
On 12/20/2010 1:47 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Aaron Bedra wrote:
On 12/20/10 1:39 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Meikel Brandmeyerwrote:
Hi,
if you prefer text over talk:
http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
*giggle
Hi Ken,
I'd like to nominate you on behalf of the Clojure community to convert
all non-text resources into text only resources. You officially have
my vote. I think your passion makes you the perfect candidate to do
this work. In the mean time I'd like to extend a thanks to all the
folks having ta
What things "normally mean" has no place in computer science. You
have to embrace the jargon to be able to think rationally in the
space. This in no way detracts from this discussion.
When I say "Hickey nomenclature", I mean vis a vis classical
philosophy or Hegel. Lay nomenclature only muddies
On 12/20/10 1:47 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Aaron Bedra wrote:
On 12/20/10 1:39 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Meikel Brandmeyerwrote:
Hi,
if you prefer text over talk:
http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
*giggle*
I
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:48 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
>>> http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
>>
>> *giggle*
>>
>> It figures.
>>
>> I ask for text instead of video so, naturally, I get a PDF link.
>>
>> *falls over laughing*
>
> How rude. Searching in the PDF (yes, that work
Hi,
Am 20.12.2010 um 19:39 schrieb Ken Wesson:
> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> if you prefer text over talk:
>>
>> http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
>
> *giggle*
>
> It figures.
>
> I ask for text instead of video so, naturally, I
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:42 PM, Aaron Bedra wrote:
> On 12/20/10 1:39 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>>
>> On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> if you prefer text over talk:
>>>
>>> http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
>>
>> *giggle*
>>
>> It figu
I think too many posters here are equating Clojure with Lisp.
Clojure is a LISP, but it is not LISP itself.
* Mutability is not a given in all LISP implementations, only some of
them.
* STM transactions (i.e. state and time management upon non-mutable
objects) is a Clojure concept, that no other L
On 12/20/10 1:39 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
Hi,
if you prefer text over talk:
http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
*giggle*
It figures.
I ask for text instead of video so, naturally, I get a PDF link.
*falls over laughi
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:30 PM, Alyssa Kwan wrote:
> No, identifiers are names. Identity transcends names. For example,
> in a distributed shared object system, multiple machines on the same
> network will have different identifiers for the same identity.
>
> "Ordinary usage" isn't good enough
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 1:26 PM, Meikel Brandmeyer wrote:
> Hi,
>
> if you prefer text over talk:
>
> http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
*giggle*
It figures.
I ask for text instead of video so, naturally, I get a PDF link.
*falls over laughing*
--
You received this message
No, identifiers are names. Identity transcends names. For example,
in a distributed shared object system, multiple machines on the same
network will have different identifiers for the same identity.
"Ordinary usage" isn't good enough for metaphysical discussions.
There is a metaphysical discussi
Hi,
if you prefer text over talk:
http://clojure.googlegroups.com/web/AreWeThereYet.pdf
Sincerely
Meikel
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On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 2:49 AM, Alex Osborne wrote:
> Ken Wesson writes:
>
>> Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable
>> collections. Two lists are equal if they have the same contents in the
>> same order -- but then you use one as a key in a hashmap, and then add
>> an
On Mon, Dec 20, 2010 at 12:26 AM, Tim Daly wrote:
> On 12/19/2010 10:53 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>> Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable
>> collections. Two lists are equal if they have the same contents in the
>> same order -- but then you use one as a key in a hashmap, a
>
> "You can't step into the same river twice."
In this quote the river is the identity. At any snapshot in time the river
is a specific value.
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Ken Wesson writes:
>> * OO programs conflate value, state, and identity.
>
> Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable
> collections.
I just thought of a non programming language example which might help
explain what "state and identity conflation" means. The web (as
trad
> Can you articulate it any better than "ah hah!"?
Heureka!
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fi
Ken Wesson writes:
> Ah. So, like the confused situations you get with Java's mutable
> collections. Two lists are equal if they have the same contents in the
> same order -- but then you use one as a key in a hashmap, and then add
> an item to it, and boom! Clojure separates this stuff out becau
2010/12/20 Tim Daly
>
>
> On 12/19/2010 10:53 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>
>> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Tim Daly
>> wrote:
>>
>>> On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>>>
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
> On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>
On 12/19/2010 10:53 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
On 12/19/201
On Sun, 19 Dec 2010 21:24:42 -0500
Ken Wesson wrote:
> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
> >
> >
> > On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
> >>
> >> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly
> >> wrote:
> >>>
> >>> I didn't mean to imply that other people
> >>> don't have the
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 10:33 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
> On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
>
> On 12/19/2010 8:20
On 12/19/2010 10:21 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
I didn't me
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 9:42 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
>
>
> On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
>
> I didn't mean to
On 12/19/2010 9:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly
wrote:
I didn't mean to imply that other people
don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with
other languages. However
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 6:24 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
> Has everyone on this list developed a sudden allergy to plain text and
> HTML? First I get pointed to a 34-minute video, and now this. A simple
> bulleted list with a brief precis about each item would have sufficed;
> a multi-megabyte install o
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:25 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
>
>
> On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly
>> wrote:
>>>
>>> I didn't mean to imply that other people
>>> don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with
>>> other languages. However, I have only had
>>
On 12/19/2010 8:33 PM, Eric Schulte wrote:
Tim Daly writes:
Haskell has neat ideas but I've seen them before in lisp-based
systems. I work in a language which is strongly typed, allows
currying, is functional, etc., implemented in Common Lisp. I have
not found the "ah-hah!" in Haskell.
Sou
Tim Daly writes:
>
> Haskell has neat ideas but I've seen them before in lisp-based
> systems. I work in a language which is strongly typed, allows
> currying, is functional, etc., implemented in Common Lisp. I have
> not found the "ah-hah!" in Haskell.
>
Sounds interesting, could you share a po
On 12/19/2010 8:20 PM, Ken Wesson wrote:
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
I didn't mean to imply that other people
don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with
other languages. However, I have only had
the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience
with lisp.
Your enlightenment migh
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 8:18 PM, Tim Daly wrote:
> I didn't mean to imply that other people
> don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with
> other languages. However, I have only had
> the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience
> with lisp.
>
> Your enlightenment might vary.
>
> Rich gave his "Whitehe
I didn't mean to imply that other people
don't have the "ah-hah!" experience with
other languages. However, I have only had
the (before lisp)|(after lisp) experience
with lisp.
Your enlightenment might vary.
Rich gave his "Whitehead" talk and brought
up the fact that OO languages get several
th
On 12/19/2010 7:31 PM, Vagif Verdi wrote:
Haskell has aha moments too. And it is not lisp.
The definition of "lisp" i accept is much simpler and much more
obvious: source code of the program is a valid data structure in that
language.
I agree that you can't BE a lisp without homoiconicity. H
On 12/19/2010 6:41 PM, javajosh wrote:
Can you articulate it any better than "ah hah!"?
The proper response is "moo".
But I think there is a point where you "get" concepts
like the distinction between values and identity which
are fundamental. Whatever the event, it feels like
whatever I writ
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 7:31 PM, Vagif Verdi wrote:
> Haskell has aha moments too. And it is not lisp.
>
> The definition of "lisp" i accept is much simpler and much more
> obvious: source code of the program is a valid data structure in that
> language.
Access to the parse tree. C source code i
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 4:31 PM, Vagif Verdi wrote:
> Haskell has aha moments too. And it is not lisp.
er, yeah, 2nd'd. totally. i mean, same for plenty of programming
languages. and certainly not the same thing for everybody. ah-hahs are
subjective. if i "get" lisp but never had an ah hah becaus
Haskell has aha moments too. And it is not lisp.
The definition of "lisp" i accept is much simpler and much more
obvious: source code of the program is a valid data structure in that
language.
On Dec 19, 11:33 am, Tim Daly wrote:
> There have been discussions, here and elsewhere, about
> whet
"sha-wing"? :D
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 5:41 PM, javajosh wrote:
> Can you articulate it any better than "ah hah!"?
>
> On Dec 19, 11:33 am, Tim Daly wrote:
>> There have been discussions, here and elsewhere, about
>> whether Clojure is a "Lisp". Lots of discussion centers
>> around facts like
Can you articulate it any better than "ah hah!"?
On Dec 19, 11:33 am, Tim Daly wrote:
> There have been discussions, here and elsewhere, about
> whether Clojure is a "Lisp". Lots of discussion centers
> around facts like homoiconicity, or the REPL, or the
> debate of Rich's redefinition of lisp
On Sun, Dec 19, 2010 at 11:33 AM, Tim Daly wrote:
> The most fundamental thing about "Lisp" is that there is
> this universal but personal event when you suddenly
> "get it". This does not seem to happen with other languages.
I think it's true to some extent with most languages - particularly
tho
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