Re: [ccp4bb] Question about R/Rfree value difference

2010-07-09 Thread Dirk Kostrewa
Hi Tom, very nice tool! It would be good to get numerical values of the plotted distributions as well, like mean, median, standard deviation and so on. Best regards, Dirk. Am 08.07.10 15:20, schrieb Tom Oldfield: Sampath With regard to your question on what sort of statistics you should g

Re: [ccp4bb] Question about R/Rfree value difference

2010-07-08 Thread Tom Oldfield
Sampath With regard to your question on what sort of statistics you should get within structure determination you might find this service at the PDBe useful : http://www.ebi.ac.uk/pdbe-as/pdbestatistics/PDBeStatistics.jsp You can view and manipulate distributions of R, Rfree and R-Rfree along

Re: [ccp4bb] Question about R/Rfree value difference

2010-07-08 Thread jbosch
Something else to consider is what is your space group ? P212121 but truly P21 with twinning fraction close to 0.5 ? That's one of my recent cases. 1.9 Å data beautifully refined & built but the Rwork/Rfree gap was 13 percent. After changing the space group and applying the twin law the gap is 3

Re: [ccp4bb] Question about R/Rfree value difference

2010-07-08 Thread Tim Gruene
"badly built model" reminds me of another possible reason: if you have an old version of ccp4 installed (before 6.1??), there is a default weight of 0.3 for refmac between data and restraints. This value is - in my experience - way too high for "normal" resolution and at the beginning of refinemen

Re: [ccp4bb] Question about R/Rfree value difference

2010-07-08 Thread Anastassis Perrakis
I do agree with Tim's reasoning in general, but as Pavel also implied by offering the statistics, I would not be worried about the difference, but by the unreasonably high absolute value of Free R for 2.0 A resolution. I do not think that its simple 'over-fitting' and my worry would not be

Re: [ccp4bb] Question about R/Rfree value difference

2010-07-07 Thread Tim Gruene
Dear Sampath, You are right, the gap between R and Rfree is significant and indicates that your model was overfitted. Without knowing your data or your model, some reasons for overfitting might be: - you used automated placement of water molecules (e.g. through arpwaters or in coot) and never ch

Re: [ccp4bb] Question about R/Rfree value difference

2010-07-07 Thread Pavel Afonine
Hi Sampath, this is how the distribution of Rwork, Rfree and Rfree-Rwork look like for 'all' PDB structures refined at around 2A resolution. The "<<<" indicates where your structure stands with respect to this distribution. Histogram of Rwork for models in PDB at resolution 1.90-2.10 A: 0

[ccp4bb] Question about R/Rfree value difference

2010-07-07 Thread Sampath Natarajan
Dear all, I have a question about the R free value. I refined a structure with 2A resolution. After model building and restraint refinement using Refmac program, the average B factor was around 50 for all atoms. The R/Rfree were around 22/34. Then used the TLS refinement choosing entire molecule.