On Aug 11, 2009, at 6:28 PM, Max Battcher wrote:
On 8/11/2009 18:53, Trent Shipley wrote:
More fundamental is his objection to the U.S. Government. In
effect, he
is saying that the U.S. system of government is inherently
illegitimate,
largely because it is run by politicians. By John Willi
> -Original Message-
> From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
> Behalf Of John Williams
> Sent: Saturday, July 18, 2009 12:41 AM
> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
> Subject: Re: Why not discuss the topic?
>
>
> No chutzpah required, since I
Ever since I was given "Atlas Shrugged" to read by a girlfriend in 1975,
I've been discussing the wonders of free markets with objectivists, radical
libertarians and the like. When asked how disputes over contracts,
ownership, and the like were resolved, all agreed that a governmental court
syst
On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 2:01 PM, John Williams wrote:
> But I am
> not my brother's keeper.
Seems odd that you would would say that, given that when Cain said, "Am I my
brother's keeper?" he had just murdered his brother to steal his
inheritance.
I thought you were *against *the taking of othe
People on this list have argued for the advantages of a free market system
for health care and health care insurance. I have thought about it, and
decided to apply what we know from other markets that have considerable
less government intervention.
For example, big screen TVs. If you have the mo
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:40 AM, Nick Arnett wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, Aug 11, 2009 at 2:01 PM, John Williams
> wrote:
>>
>> But I am
>> not my brother's keeper.
>
> Seems odd that you would would say that, given that when Cain said, "Am I my
> brother's keeper?" he had just murdered his brother to st
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Dan M wrote:
> Your writings are consistent with the viewpoint of one who knows government
> is the root cause of all that is wrong a priori, and needs not look at data
> to look at the truth.
Just so you know:
1) I saw your similar post about this the first time
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Dan M wrote:
> John, would you agree that some sort of community system, like the courts,
> are necessary to resolve disputes over true ownership of property,
> contracts, and the like?
Necessary, no, I can imagine alternatives that might be practical, at
least on
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:50 AM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> People on this list have argued for the advantages of a free market system
> for health care and health care insurance. I have thought about it, and
> decided to apply what we know from other markets that have considerable
> less
The Brin-L weekly chat has been a list tradition for over ten
years. Way back on 27 May, 1998, Marco Maisenhelder first set
up a chatroom for the list, and on the next day, he established
a weekly chat time. We've been through several servers, chat
technologies, and even casts of regulars over the
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not
focus on redistributing wealth
I think this WSJ article is free for anyone to read:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html
but just in case you cannot read it, here are the 8 bullet points (and
a quotation) from Whole Foods founder John Mackey about "The Whole
Foods Alternative to ObamaC
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/08/consumer-drive-health-care-plans.html
Alex Tabarrok wrote:
|For about the last 10 years the United States has been experimenting
|with consumer driven health care plans. CDH plans typically combine
|a high-deductible insurance policy w
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:30:03 -0700
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Re: Why not discuss the topic?
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:43 AM, Dan M wrote:
> Your writings are consistent with the viewpoint of one who knows
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:24 AM, John Williams wrote:
>
>
> It seems I have led you astray. I thought it was clear from the
> context (which you removed above), but I meant that literally. Feel
> free to replace it with "I do not decide what others may or may not
> do".
Ah, so you thought that
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
...
Just so you know:
1) I saw your similar post about this the first time, several weeks ago
2) We had a similar discussion last year
3) Because of 2) and things that you write
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:32 AM, John Williams wrote:
>
> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/08/consumer-drive-health-care-plans.html
>
> Alex Tabarrok wrote:
>
> |For about the last 10 years the United States has been experimenting
> |with consumer driven health care plans
John Williams wrote:
I think this WSJ article is free for anyone to read:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html
but just in case you cannot read it, here are the 8 bullet points
...
Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies
must co
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 10:56:01 -0700
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:01 AM, Dan M wrote:
>> John, would you agree that some sort o
Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and
annoys the pedant.
--Lois Bujold
___
http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:00 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> Actually, I gave a lot more data this time
Do you mean that the reason you dropped out of the discussion last
time was because you could not respond to my specific points because
you did not have enough data?
In that case,
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:07 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> That is what I'm taking away from this, too.
> Dan's response seemed on topic to me.
If you would like to discuss any specific points from the last time
this came up (late last year), I would be glad to discuss. Please
quote the specific point
#1 patent-related
#2 patent-related
#4 IP-related
#5 patent-related
Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
___
http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
John Williams wrote:
> There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
> than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
> redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
> everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:51 PM, John Williams wrote:
> Never argue with a pedant over nomenclature. It wastes your time and
> annoys the pedant.
I take it you are opposed to pedantically taking the meaning of "literally"
literally?
That was fun.
Nick
_
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:15 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> John Williams wrote:
>>
>> Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies
>> must cover.
>
> ...
>>
>> Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what
>> health-care treatments cost.
>
> ...
>
> Going by the present sta
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Lance A. Brown wrote:
>
>
> John Williams wrote:
>> There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
>> than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
>> redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
>> ever
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> People on this list have argued for the advantages of a free market system
> for health care and health care insurance. I have thought about it, and
> decided to apply what we know from other markets that have considerable
> less government intervention.
>
> For
John Williams wrote:
> There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
> than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
> redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
> everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not
>
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Trent Shipley wrote:
> John Williams wrote:
>> There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
>> than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
>> redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
>> everyone
This went just to john instead of the list twice. I'm not sure why.
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 4:40 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>>Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
>
> If you understood the patent system and how these issues arise, you would
> kn
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:07 PM, David Hobby wrote:
That is what I'm taking away from this, too.
Dan's response seemed on topic to me.
If you would like to discuss any specific points from the last time
this came up (late last year), I would be glad to discuss. Please
quo
John Williams wrote:
#1 patent-related
#2 patent-related
#4 IP-related
#5 patent-related
Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
Yes. He's saying it doesn't actually work the
way you think it would, since there's latitude
for people to game the system.
How w
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:20 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> How would a non-government-run patent system
> (whatever it was) not be just as flawed?
> Or better, how would you design a patent system
> that did not give a significant advantage to the
> side with the best lawyers?
> (Feel free to propose
>
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:15 PM, David Hobby wrote:
John Williams wrote:
Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies
must cover.
...
Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what
health-care treatments cost.
...
Going by the present state
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:15 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> Maybe YOU could repost?
No, see my previous post in this thread. I still feel the same. And
I'm not trying to be difficult here, I just am not interested in
discussing a subject that I feel has already been adequately
discussed, unless someone
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:04 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> No, it's the courts that decided, not the patent system itself. Enforcement
> of patents and other IP are in the courts, not through patent clerks.
So, if some politicians decided to make a law that all Texans must
have a job an
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Lance A. Brown wrote:
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief t
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 4:49 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> This went just to john instead of the list twice. I'm not sure why.
I just noticed something odd. You messages, that come through the
list, have the Reply-to: set to both your own email address, and the
list address. So when I hi
David Hobby wrote:
> John Williams wrote:
>> #1 patent-related
>>
>> #2 patent-related
>>
>> #4 IP-related
>>
>> #5 patent-related
>>
>> Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
>
> Yes. He's saying it doesn't actually work the
> way you think it would, since there's
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> How on earth is
> the average consumer going to check that their policy is
> NOT full of loopholes?
First, I'll point that I know of no system to ensure that there are
not loopholes or other problems with a product or service. The
government ca
Trent Shipley wrote:
David Hobby wrote:
John Williams wrote:
...
Sounds like you have a problem with the government-run patent system.
Yes. He's saying it doesn't actually work the
way you think it would, since there's latitude
for people to game the system.
How would a non-government-run p
On Aug 12, 2009, at 4:31 PM, John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Trent Shipley
wrote:
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve heal
Hello Group --
This discussion about health care is driving me a little crazy, as a retired
nurse. I agree with Dan, Nick, David and everyone else who sees the need
for some sort of universal risk pool. The one thing that irks me about
talking about high deductibles and health savings accounts i
>Actually, I favor no patent or IP restrictions. I do not know of any
>way to prevent gaming the system, and I think the benefits of the
>system, as implemented, are outweighed by the costs, several of which
>Dan mentioned.
Lets assume that companies that innovated got nothing more than a few
mon
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:33 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> This is an old kind of argument that is usually used
> to support not taking action. It asks "How can you
> worry about A, when B is so much worse?"
That was a question, not an argument. And I am not being flippant. My
point is that I am not
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, David Hobby wrote:
How on earth is
the average consumer going to check that their policy is
NOT full of loopholes?
...
As for how a consumer can decide what product or service is best for
them, I can think of several non-government possibil
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Dave Land wrote:
> Other than various charities, there isn't a world "government" (i.e.,
> a "mutually agreed-upon means by which people can pitch in to help each
> other out") through which I can "redistribute wealth from people in the
> US to the people in the wo
Compassion, folks. IAAMOAC.
I agree with your points Jo Anne, and welcome hearing from you.
mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology -
http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
__
> I agree with Dan, Nick, David and everyone else who sees the need
> for some sort of universal risk pool.
I'll be glib here and object to "universal". What I think you really
mean is "all US citizens", or perhaps "all US citizens and non-citizen
residents". But see my question here about why we
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:08 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> BTW, I chose IP gaming examples because that's what I know best. The
> entire legal system is subject to gamingwhy do you think there are so
> many lawyers who make so much money compared to those folks who create
> wealth wh
>> BTW, I chose IP gaming examples because that's what I know best. The
>> entire legal system is subject to gamingwhy do you think there are so
>> many lawyers who make so much money compared to those folks who create
>> wealth who make less?
>Thus my earlier statement that we have too many
>Compassion and government are strange bedfellows. I'd prefer to
>express my compassion without government.
I understand. But, since you expressed it as "I am not my brother's
keeper", that's what most folks would call no compassion. You are free to
express itbut we are free to disagree.
> -Original Message-
> From: brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com [mailto:brin-l-boun...@mccmedia.com] On
> Behalf Of John Williams
> Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2009 7:32 PM
> To: Killer Bs (David Brin et al) Discussion
> Subject: Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
>
> On We
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Dan M wrote:
> No, that is the fault of the laws as written. The problem with the court
> system is that they do not understand enough to enforce the laws as written.
Or it could be that the laws are too many and too poorly written for
the courts to efficiently e
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:39 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> OK, then why do we have so many more lawyers than much more socialistic
> countries that have a far more complex history of laws than the US?
I'm not really following you. Do you mean to suggest that number of
lawyers is a metric
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:43 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> I understand. But, since you expressed it as "I am not my brother's
> keeper", that's what most folks would call no compassion. You are free to
> express itbut we are free to disagree.
Why do we always end up with such sill
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:20:38 -0700
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Re: The Role of Government in a Libertarian Free Market
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:02 PM, Dan M wrote:
>> No, that is the fault of the laws as w
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 9:50 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> I wasn't clear. They don't understand enough about what is being regulated
> to enforce the laws. The laws are very clear to me; its how one interprets
> these clear laws in the light of facts that are far too complex for the
> j
Sorry John,
After several posts went to Brin-L I thought the problem was fixed. The
ones that do and those that don't all have similar headers oh my side.
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:30:31 -0700
To: dsummersmi...@comca
I think I fell victim to several non-glitches in a row and accidently sent
this to just John. Sorry. But, I found a fast way to fix it...so I'll try
to be good from now on.
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 21:36:46 -0700
To: d
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:08 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> Well, when you quote Cain as a fudmental moral position, you write words
> that result in a straight reading of the text leading to that conclusion.
Which has now thoroughly been taken out of context, and been repeated
several t
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