(lost track of who wrote what)
>> But if you repeal ALL government mandates, you'll wind
>> up with lots of policies that appear to cover everything
>> a consumer might want, but are actually full of loopholes
>> so that the insurer need not pay for standard treatments.
>> That seems the op
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:25 PM, Rceeberger wrote:
>
> On 8/17/2009 11:09:15 PM, John Williams (jwilliams4...@gmail.com) wrote:
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 8:58 PM, Jo Anne wrote:
>>
>> > And there I rest my case on the tone thing.
>>
>> I wrote that as clearly and as sincerely as I could. I assure
>Did someone say John's been on this list for 10 years? Did I misread
that??
I told John many of us had been. Maybe that got mangled. Maybe by me. :-)
Dan M.
myhosting.com - Premium Microsoft® Windows® and Linux web and
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:29 PM, Nick Arnett wrote:
> Is health care so unimportant that it deserves no regulation?
We are starting from different worldviews, I think. I believe in
freedom for people to make agreements with each other as they choose
-- that is my starting point. You appear to bel
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 6:32 PM, John Williams wrote:
>
>
> >>Actually, a health insurance market without government interference
> >>would be a lot more consumer-driven than the current system, which
> >>is why I mentioned it. In nearly all cases, if there is to be a
> >
> > Howso?
>
> Competitio
> Do you think you're fooling anyone with this schtick?
I hope not. It is certainly not my intention to fool anyone.
___
http://mccmedia.com/mailman/listinfo/brin-l_mccmedia.com
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 5:45 PM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> And in most cases, the likelyhood of you developing those conditions
> is dependent on pre-existing conditions!
I have not seen any evidence that suggests this. There are a large
number of conditions that can result in a large increase in
On 17 Aug 2009 at 17:06, John Williams wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Andrew
> Crystall wrote:
> > On 17 Aug 2009 at 12:51, John Williams wrote:
> >
> >> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Andrew
> >> Crystall wrote:
> >>
> >> No, considering pre-existing conditions is not how health stat
Hello all --
I didn't mean to drop out of this, ummm, 'discussion', but I lost the email
I intended to respond to over the w/e. What can I say? I turned 61 and had
to put a 9 year old cat down due to cancer -- not a good day until Charlie
reminded me 61 is a prime number! Cheered me right up.
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> On 17 Aug 2009 at 12:57, John Williams wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Andrew
>> Crystall wrote:
>> > On 16 Aug 2009 at 23:18, John Williams wrote:
>> >
>> >> If the government is going to interfere in the insurance market, it
>
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 4:47 PM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> On 17 Aug 2009 at 12:51, John Williams wrote:
>
>> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Andrew
>> Crystall wrote:
>>
>> No, considering pre-existing conditions is not how health status
>> insurance works. It takes into account the risks of healt
On 17 Aug 2009 at 12:57, John Williams wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Andrew
> Crystall wrote:
> > On 16 Aug 2009 at 23:18, John Williams wrote:
> >
> >> If the government is going to interfere in the insurance market, it
> >> seems to me that it would be simpler just to directly subsid
On 17 Aug 2009 at 12:51, John Williams wrote:
> On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Andrew
> Crystall wrote:
>
> > Of course that's how it works. It's in the interest of insurance
> > companies not to pay out. Your shilling for corperations is amusing,
> > but not based in reality: insurance allways
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:11 AM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
>
>
>
> Original Message:
> -
> From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
> Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 23:21:45 -0700
> To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
> Subject: Re: A Real Free Market in Healt
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> On 16 Aug 2009 at 23:18, John Williams wrote:
>
>> If the government is going to interfere in the insurance market, it
>> seems to me that it would be simpler just to directly subsidize those
>> who cannot afford to pay health insurance prem
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:33 AM, Dave Land wrote:
> On 16 Aug 2009 at 23:18, John Williams wrote:
>
>> If the government is going to interfere in the insurance market,
>
> You call it interference, I call it participation.
I'd agree with forced participation.
Here's an example of government force
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 9:19 AM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> Of course that's how it works. It's in the interest of insurance
> companies not to pay out. Your shilling for corperations is amusing,
> but not based in reality: insurance allways takes into account risks.
No, considering pre-existing co
On Mon, Aug 17, 2009 at 7:11 AM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> There is a reason why there isn't affordable long term insurance.
Yes, government interference and people who would rather spend other
people's money for their own insurance.
___
http:
On 16 Aug 2009 at 23:18, John Williams wrote:
If the government is going to interfere in the insurance market,
You call it interference, I call it participation.
Well, at least you don't try to hide your bias.
Dave
___
http://mccmedia.com/mailman
On 16 Aug 2009 at 23:03, John Williams wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Andrew
> Crystall wrote:
>
> > Either it will have a higher premium to cover pre-existing
> > conditions, or it only covers things not caused by the pre-existing
> > condition.
>
> That is not how health status insu
On 16 Aug 2009 at 23:18, John Williams wrote:
> If the government is going to interfere in the insurance market, it
> seems to me that it would be simpler just to directly subsidize those
> who cannot afford to pay health insurance premiums, and leave the
> insurance market to function rationally.
On 18/08/2009, at 12:11 AM, dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
What you are searching for is akin to trying to find an even prime
number.
It's really easy to find one...
...but then you go looking for another...
Charlie.
But There's One, So There Must Be Another Eventually Maru
_
Original Message:
-
From: John Williams jwilliams4...@gmail.com
Date: Sun, 16 Aug 2009 23:21:45 -0700
To: brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Re: A Real Free Market in Health Care
>Another good reason for heath status insurance
John, you realize what you are arguing, don&#x
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:34 PM, Lance A. Brown wrote:
> The analogy between auto and health insurance fails in one regard: Most
> of the time, a 5x increase in auto insurance premiums is a direct result
> of decisions by the covered person. Many of causes for increases in
> health insurance pre
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:42 PM, Trent Shipley wrote:
> So insurance could charge someone with type II diabetes more, but not
> someone with type I diabetes. You could charge more to people who,
> smoke, are over weight, who don't exercise, or who practice un-safe sex.
>
> You couldn't charge mor
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 6:46 PM, Trent Shipley wrote:
> The people outside the boundary are not my responsibility. They are not
> my people. Furthermore, they don't participate in my moral economy.
> The status of the poor in my country has an immediate effect on me. I
> may be among the poor,
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:32 PM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> Either it will have a higher premium to cover pre-existing
> conditions, or it only covers things not caused by the pre-existing
> condition.
That is not how health status insurance works. It is insurance against
an increase in health insu
John Williams wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Trent Shipley wrote:
>> John Williams wrote:
>>> There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
>>> than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
>>> redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of t
Lance A. Brown wrote:
> John Williams said the following on 8/16/2009 5:08 PM:
>> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 1:47 PM, David Hobby wrote:
>>
>>> It does strike me as a kludge, though. To continue
>>> your example of car insurance, I don't believe that
>>> anybody markets insurance against having your
John Williams said the following on 8/16/2009 5:08 PM:
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 1:47 PM, David Hobby wrote:
>
>> It does strike me as a kludge, though. To continue
>> your example of car insurance, I don't believe that
>> anybody markets insurance against having your car
>> insurance premiums ri
On 16 Aug 2009 at 16:30, John Williams wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Andrew
> Crystall wrote:
>
> > , so if you're a bad
> > health risk or have prexisting conditions you're very unlikely to be
> > able to get status coverage at a deacent price or at all in the first
> > place,
>
> T
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:10 PM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> , so if you're a bad
> health risk or have prexisting conditions you're very unlikely to be
> able to get status coverage at a deacent price or at all in the first
> place,
That is not the way health status insurance works. A pre-existing
On 16 Aug 2009 at 15:52, John Williams wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Andrew
> Crystall wrote:
>
> > Yes, you're simply refusing to accnowledge the actual results of the
> > policys proposed...
>
> What exactly am I refusing to acknowledge?
That you'd simply once again reduce the num
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 3:34 PM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> Yes, you're simply refusing to accnowledge the actual results of the
> policys proposed...
What exactly am I refusing to acknowledge?
> to be charged (as their "status" insurance can be cancelled,
Health status insurance "cancelled"? Not
On 16 Aug 2009 at 14:44, John Williams wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Andrew
> Crystall wrote:
>
> > Many people won't go for checkups if they have to pay out of pocket,
> > and they will ignore dangerous conditions for too long.
>
> Did you read the article, or just the excerpts I po
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 2:38 PM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> And immediately you're creating the concept that as aoon as anything
> happens, your insurance will go up, because the risk to the insurer
> that you'll not be paying them anymore has been pushed to another
> party.
I do not see how this f
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 2:32 PM, Andrew
Crystall wrote:
> Many people won't go for checkups if they have to pay out of pocket,
> and they will ignore dangerous conditions for too long.
Did you read the article, or just the excerpts I posted? This was
discussed in the article.
> Sure, evidence is
On 16 Aug 2009 at 14:08, John Williams wrote:
> New ideas can be difficult to get used to. Perhaps they could be
> bundled together for those who prefer it. But it would be a bundle --
> the two types of insurance are fundamentally different, since one pays
> a lump sum or equivalent (like life in
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 2:05 PM, Patrick Sweeney wrote:
> On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 1:47 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> But if I do fall ill, for the insurer to raise my rates rather than
> provide the agreed-upon care seems like dirty pool.
That is only true if you had an agreement with the insurance co
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 1:47 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> It does strike me as a kludge, though. To continue
> your example of car insurance, I don't believe that
> anybody markets insurance against having your car
> insurance premiums rise dramatically.
I do not think there is a as large a risk of
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 1:47 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> I'd guess that Patrick is expecting health insurance
> to have health status insurance already built into it.
One would think the whole point of health insurance is to provide you
with health care (more precisely, the funds to acquire such) sh
John Williams wrote:
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Patrick
Sweeney wrote:
When you reach a point where the suggested solution to ridiculously
overpriced health insurance is to take out an insurance policy on your
insurance ... perhaps it's a sign that you ought to consider some
other system.
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 12:28 PM, Patrick
Sweeney wrote:
> When you reach a point where the suggested solution to ridiculously
> overpriced health insurance is to take out an insurance policy on your
> insurance ... perhaps it's a sign that you ought to consider some
> other system.
Actually, char
When you reach a point where the suggested solution to ridiculously
overpriced health insurance is to take out an insurance policy on your
insurance ... perhaps it's a sign that you ought to consider some
other system.
Patrick
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 12:24 PM, John Williams wrote:
> One thing tha
One thing that is often discussed in reference to health insurance is
that if someone is unexpectedly afflicted with a chronic condition,
their health insurance premiums will usually increase drastically.
Health insurance for someone diagnosed with a chronic condition might
go from $2,000 a year to
On Sun, Aug 16, 2009 at 4:05 AM, Ronn!
Blankenship wrote:
>
> I'm only a little way into the article, but I take it Semmelwies is no
> longer mentioned in the medical school (or pre-med) curriculum?
I think that the guidelines Goldhill refers to are more systematic and
comprehensive than anything
At 02:51 AM Sunday 8/16/2009, John Williams wrote:
The Atlantic has a thoughtful article by David Goldhill on health care
and health insurance reform. It is long, but I think well worth
reading. I've also included below a few paragraphs that I thought were
particularly interesting.
http://www.th
The Atlantic has a thoughtful article by David Goldhill on health care
and health insurance reform. It is long, but I think well worth
reading. I've also included below a few paragraphs that I thought were
particularly interesting.
http://www.theatlantic.com/doc/print/200909/health-care
| I
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 4:31 PM, John Williams wrote:
>
> "It is ethical to take wealth from some people in order to help other
> people with less resources, but only if all of those people are in the
> same political boundary"?
Another straw man. Developed countries put about $120 billion into
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 9:41 AM, Chris Frandsen wrote:
> My generation has become noticeably stingier as our balance of trade swung
> around from crazy black to very red, starting with Nixon. Now it appears
> some do not even think we can care for our own people
Our "own people"? Who would that
[Lance] wrote:
> Jo Anne, did you have an HSA or a health care flexible spending account?
> Flexible spending accounts have a pre-selected amount of pre-tax
> dollars set aside that you can then spend on non-covered medical
> expenses. Those funds "expires" at the end of the calendar year. I
> t
OK, group, those of you who've been acquainted with me over the years know I
believe in communication above all. I believe John has a right to express
his opinion. If I sound crankier than usual, it's because I am. This
debate is one of the most important we can have in this country right now,
s
On Aug 12, 2009, at 6:19 PM, John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Dave Land wrote:
Other than various charities, there isn't a world "government" (i.e.,
a "mutually agreed-upon means by which people can pitch in to help
each
other out") through which I can "redistribute weal
Actually, I believe that the US WWII generation did more to improve
healthcare around the world than any nation in the history of the
world, especially when they were riding the gravy train in the 1950's
and 60's. (US medicine and transportation of food surpluses probably
did more to creat
On Aug 12, 2009, at 8:30 PM, dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
Compassion, folks. IAAMOAC.
And remember .. http://xkcd.com/386/ .. because it's always, *always*,
true. :D
"When you mention that we want five debates, say what they are: one on
the economy, one on foreign policy, with anot
Jo Anne said the following on 8/12/2009 9:04 PM:
> Also, when we had a H.S.A., it expired after a
> year. We had to use everything in the account within the year or it was
> gone. You have to look deep into your crystal ball to decide exactly how
> much heath savings you need each year.
Jo Anne,
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:08 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> Well, when you quote Cain as a fudmental moral position, you write words
> that result in a straight reading of the text leading to that conclusion.
Which has now thoroughly been taken out of context, and been repeated
several t
00
To: dsummersmi...@comcast.net, brin-l@mccmedia.com
Subject: Re: A Real Free Market in Health Care
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:43 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> I understand. But, since you expressed it as "I am not my brother's
> keeper", that's what most folks
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 7:43 PM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> I understand. But, since you expressed it as "I am not my brother's
> keeper", that's what most folks would call no compassion. You are free to
> express itbut we are free to disagree.
Why do we always end up with such sill
>Compassion and government are strange bedfellows. I'd prefer to
>express my compassion without government.
I understand. But, since you expressed it as "I am not my brother's
keeper", that's what most folks would call no compassion. You are free to
express itbut we are free to disagree.
> I agree with Dan, Nick, David and everyone else who sees the need
> for some sort of universal risk pool.
I'll be glib here and object to "universal". What I think you really
mean is "all US citizens", or perhaps "all US citizens and non-citizen
residents". But see my question here about why we
Compassion, folks. IAAMOAC.
I agree with your points Jo Anne, and welcome hearing from you.
mail2web LIVE Free email based on Microsoft® Exchange technology -
http://link.mail2web.com/LIVE
__
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 6:01 PM, Dave Land wrote:
> Other than various charities, there isn't a world "government" (i.e.,
> a "mutually agreed-upon means by which people can pitch in to help each
> other out") through which I can "redistribute wealth from people in the
> US to the people in the wo
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, David Hobby wrote:
How on earth is
the average consumer going to check that their policy is
NOT full of loopholes?
...
As for how a consumer can decide what product or service is best for
them, I can think of several non-government possibil
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:33 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> This is an old kind of argument that is usually used
> to support not taking action. It asks "How can you
> worry about A, when B is so much worse?"
That was a question, not an argument. And I am not being flippant. My
point is that I am not
Hello Group --
This discussion about health care is driving me a little crazy, as a retired
nurse. I agree with Dan, Nick, David and everyone else who sees the need
for some sort of universal risk pool. The one thing that irks me about
talking about high deductibles and health savings accounts i
On Aug 12, 2009, at 4:31 PM, John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Trent Shipley
wrote:
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve heal
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 5:26 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> How on earth is
> the average consumer going to check that their policy is
> NOT full of loopholes?
First, I'll point that I know of no system to ensure that there are
not loopholes or other problems with a product or service. The
government ca
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Lance A. Brown wrote:
John Williams wrote:
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief t
John Williams wrote:
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:15 PM, David Hobby wrote:
John Williams wrote:
Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies
must cover.
...
Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what
health-care treatments cost.
...
Going by the present state
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:59 PM, Trent Shipley wrote:
> John Williams wrote:
>> There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
>> than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
>> redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
>> everyone
John Williams wrote:
> There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
> than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
> redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
> everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not
>
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> People on this list have argued for the advantages of a free market system
> for health care and health care insurance. I have thought about it, and
> decided to apply what we know from other markets that have considerable
> less government intervention.
>
> For
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 1:22 PM, Lance A. Brown wrote:
>
>
> John Williams wrote:
>> There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
>> than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
>> redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
>> ever
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 12:15 PM, David Hobby wrote:
> John Williams wrote:
>>
>> Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies
>> must cover.
>
> ...
>>
>> Make costs transparent so that consumers understand what
>> health-care treatments cost.
>
> ...
>
> Going by the present sta
John Williams wrote:
> There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
> than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
> redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
> everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not
John Williams wrote:
I think this WSJ article is free for anyone to read:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html
but just in case you cannot read it, here are the 8 bullet points
...
Repeal government mandates regarding what insurance companies
must co
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 11:32 AM, John Williams wrote:
>
> http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/08/consumer-drive-health-care-plans.html
>
> Alex Tabarrok wrote:
>
> |For about the last 10 years the United States has been experimenting
> |with consumer driven health care plans
http://www.marginalrevolution.com/marginalrevolution/2009/08/consumer-drive-health-care-plans.html
Alex Tabarrok wrote:
|For about the last 10 years the United States has been experimenting
|with consumer driven health care plans. CDH plans typically combine
|a high-deductible insurance policy w
I think this WSJ article is free for anyone to read:
http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204251404574342170072865070.html
but just in case you cannot read it, here are the 8 bullet points (and
a quotation) from Whole Foods founder John Mackey about "The Whole
Foods Alternative to ObamaC
There are billions of people around the world with worse healthcare
than virtually everyone in the United States. If the goal is to
redistribute wealth to improve healthcare because of the belief that
everyone should have a chance to live and be healthy, then why not
focus on redistributing wealth
On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 8:50 AM,
dsummersmi...@comcast.net wrote:
> People on this list have argued for the advantages of a free market system
> for health care and health care insurance. I have thought about it, and
> decided to apply what we know from other markets that have considerable
> less
People on this list have argued for the advantages of a free market system
for health care and health care insurance. I have thought about it, and
decided to apply what we know from other markets that have considerable
less government intervention.
For example, big screen TVs. If you have the mo
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