Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic

2022-07-07 Thread Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev
Without a performance requirement there is no reason you can’t store the BIP39 words in any order you want. So it’s certainly possible, just brute force the recovery. If you have less than a second vs. a few days then it’s a different question. e > On Jul 7, 2022, at 18:48, Bram Cohen via bitc

Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic

2022-07-07 Thread Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev
Part of the rules of my challenge is that the 'new' words need to be in the same pool as the 'old' words, so any ordering is okay. Without that requirement it's mathematically very straightforward. On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 10:52 AM Pavol Rusnak wrote: > There is. Just encode the index of permutati

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev
Value is subjective, though a constraint of 1tx per 10 minutes seems unlikey to create a fee of 5000x that of 5000tx. This is of course why I stated my assumption. Yet this simple example should make clear that at some point a reduction in confirmation rate reduces reward. Otherwise a rate of ze

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Anthony Towns via bitcoin-dev
On Thu, Jul 07, 2022 at 10:12:41AM -0400, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev wrote: > We should not imbue real technology with magical qualities. That's much more fun if you invert it, and take it as a mission statement. Advance technology sufficiently! > The fact of the matter is that the present amount

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Corey Haddad via bitcoin-dev
>Billy, > >Proof of work and the difficulty adjustment function solve literally everything you are talking about already. >Bitcoin does not need active economic governanance by devs or meddlers. >Please stop spamming this list with this nonsensical thread. > >Love, >John Sorry John, but this is a

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev
The relationship between block size and fees is not remotely linear. In a restricted environment, the fee rewards are much higher. **the ones moving more sats will win the top spots and will pay as much as is reasonable** Smaller blocks produce better security for the network both in validation

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev
It’s not clear how reducing block size changes the fee aspect of the block reward. Assuming half the space implies twice the fee per avg tx the reward remains constant. Any additional cost of processing more or less bytes would not matter, because of course this is just a cost that gets nulled

Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic

2022-07-07 Thread Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev
But this will require user to distinguish 12 words from error correcting words. Which is another hassle. On Thu, Jul 7, 2022, at 10:52 AM, Pavol Rusnak wrote: > There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwise > sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! = ~32 b

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev
> > We should not imbue real technology with magical qualities. > Precisely. It is economic forces (people), not technology, that provide security. Yes, and these forces don't prevent double-spend / 51% attacks if the amounts involved are greater than the incentives. In addition to "utility", lo

Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic

2022-07-07 Thread Pavol Rusnak via bitcoin-dev
There is. Just encode the index of permutation used to scramble the otherwise sorted list. For 12 words you need to store 12! = ~32 bits so 3 words should be enough. Repetitions make this more difficult, though. On Thu 7. 7. 2022 at 19:41, Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfound

Re: [bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic

2022-07-07 Thread Bram Cohen via bitcoin-dev
On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 7:43 AM Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev < bitcoin-dev@lists.linuxfoundation.org> wrote: > I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The > encoding requires user to remember words but not the order of those words. > The code is open (MIT license) at h

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Eric Voskuil via bitcoin-dev
> On Jul 7, 2022, at 07:13, Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev > wrote: > > On Thu, Jul 07, 2022 at 02:24:39PM +0100, John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev > wrote: >> Billy, >> >> Proof of work and the difficulty adjustment function solve literally >> everything you are talking about already. > > Unfortu

[bitcoin-dev] No Order Mnemonic

2022-07-07 Thread Anton Shevchenko via bitcoin-dev
Hello, I am new to this list, sorry if it's been discussed earlier. I made a python implementation for a different mnemonic encoding. The encoding requires user to remember words but not the order of those words. The code is open (MIT license) at https://github.com/sancoder/noomnem -- Anton She

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Giuseppe B via bitcoin-dev
It's the first time I read about the security budget and it definitely sounds scary to me. If it only takes a few million dollars to attack BTC and make it completely unusable for one day, I suppose it's only a matter of time before some hedge fund actually does it, using a short position to profit

Re: [bitcoin-dev] [BIP proposal] Private Payments

2022-07-07 Thread Alfred Hodler via bitcoin-dev
Hi Damian, Which specific part of the proposal do you think affects the legibility of the blockchain and the fungibility of UTXOs? Please point out the relevant section so that we can address your concerns. Alfred --- Original Message --- On Sunday, July 3rd, 2022 at 3:17 PM, KING JAMES

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Erik Aronesty via bitcoin-dev
. > > My thoughts on this are that we will need to periodically make some > software change to adjust a *target amount of investment in security*, > because the > I think perhaps you're underestimating the degree to which utility can be added to the main chain to encourage fees. For example, li

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Peter Todd via bitcoin-dev
On Thu, Jul 07, 2022 at 02:24:39PM +0100, John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev wrote: > Billy, > > Proof of work and the difficulty adjustment function solve literally > everything you are talking about already. Unfortunately you are quite wrong: the difficulty adjustment function merely adjusts for cha

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread John Carvalho via bitcoin-dev
Billy, Proof of work and the difficulty adjustment function solve literally everything you are talking about already. Bitcoin does not need active economic governanance by devs or meddlers. Please stop spamming this list with this nonsensical thread. Love, John On Thu, Jul 7, 2022 at 1:00 PM

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread vjudeu via bitcoin-dev
> The primary mechanism we have to change how much security we have is to > change the block size, which changes how much fees miners can collect each > block. This isn't a linear thing. Its probably a parabola with a peak, where > at that peak, making the block either smaller and larger would b

Re: [bitcoin-dev] Bitcoin covenants are inevitable

2022-07-07 Thread Billy Tetrud via bitcoin-dev
@Corey > Currently there is zero feedback in the Bitcoin system between what we might think is the optimum amount of security and what actually exists. I basically agree with this. The pedantic part of my mind does want to point out that the link between block subsidy and bitcoin's price does ac