Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Comparing the updates at login and shutdown... *Updates at login* : *Shutdown*: _Steps involved_: Start sys-processes --- Wait for password-not needed,user has already approved- UpdateUpdate Shutdown Shutdown Restart --- Th

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Paulo J. S. Silva ha scritto: Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 11:14 +0200, Steve Dodier escreveu: I know that in most cases this is not needed since the update will happen well, but i think its better to make users expect to have to act. If their mirror goes down, if debconf asks if a file should be m

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Em Ter, 2009-07-07 às 11:14 +0200, Steve Dodier escreveu: > I know that in most cases this is not needed since the update will > happen well, but i think its better to make users expect to have to > act. If their mirror goes down, if debconf asks if a file should be > merged, if a dep is broken, i

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, 07 Jul 2009 11:12:24 +0530 mac_v wrote: >So is there a way to mark the packages which require reboot , and Not >start them during the boot , but to update them and this would just >*delay the boot by a few seconds during which the present icon is shown* > The current mechanism involves to

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 3:18 PM, mac_v wrote: > Well... the user has to update at some point, right. > > Even if he chooses to ignore it for now, he has to do it again at some > time. We are forcing him to wait,. He will have to sit idle , waiting > for the system to update. > > While the shutdown

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Siegfried Gevatter wrote: > 2009/7/7 mac_v : >> As you say, "chances are" i.e> user *can wait* but is not forced to, >> but for a login update user *has to wait* . > >> Login update is a forced behavior. while the shutdown is the users >> option to stick around! > > Why is it forced? If I underst

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Il 07/07/2009 12:55, mac_v ha scritto: Why do they have to wait! there is no need , it is just install+shutdown! User just selected install and shutdown! I just don't trust the system enough to guarantee it will shut down, and don't trust an old laptop I use at office enough to be sure that it

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA256 2009/7/7 mac_v : > As you say, "chances are" i.e> user *can wait* but is not forced to, > but for a login update user *has to wait* . > > Login update is a forced behavior. while the shutdown is the users > option to stick around! Why is it forced?

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Alex Launi wrote: > Leaving the computer while it's still working is /very/ likely to cause > a sense of discomfort, and chances are people will stick around and wait > for it to finish. As you say, "chances are" i.e> user *can wait* but is not forced to, but for a login update user *has to wait*

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 12:55 PM, mac_v wrote: > Why do they have to wait! there is no need , it is just > install+shutdown! User just selected install and shutdown! > We Just Make sure we send proper updates. Also... we can set rules that > if the shutdown stalls for x mins , cause a forced shutd

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Alex Launi wrote: > Whether or not it asks you, the idea is still flawed. Shutting off your > computer is an, "ok- I'm finished" activity. It's really not safe to > walk away during an update. David and Ivanka are working Friday evening, > 18h roles around and it's more than time to leave. They go

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

So is it possible to know *before* when a reboot will be required ? Very likely yes, right ? It only happens when hardware drivers and kernel get updated ? The packages list is updated when the computer is turned on, anyway, but let's assume Mr. User didn't do his updates Monday, then Tuesday he c

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, Jul 7, 2009 at 2:21 AM, David Siegel wrote: > Also, as there is no user state before login, we can reboot the machine > without user confirmation. With fast-boot and KMS, we completely remove the > pain from rebooting after updates -- in fact, the user probably won't even > notice the rebo

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Mike Rooney wrote: > On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:42 PM, mac_v wrote: >> Scott Kitterman wrote: >>> On the other hand, fast boot is an explicit Ubuntu design goal for a >>> variety of reasons including users typically start their computers because >>> they want to use them. >>> >>> Before getting too

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Mon, Jul 6, 2009 at 10:42 PM, mac_v wrote: > Scott Kitterman wrote: >> >> On the other hand, fast boot is an explicit Ubuntu design goal for a >> variety of reasons including users typically start their computers because >> they want to use them. >> >> Before getting too set on installing update

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Scott Kitterman wrote: > > On the other hand, fast boot is an explicit Ubuntu design goal for a > variety of reasons including users typically start their computers because > they want to use them. > > Before getting too set on installing updates at boot, I'd suggest some > discussion with t

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Mon, 06 Jul 2009 20:46:19 -0400 Joshua Blount wrote: >On 07/06/2009 08:21 PM, David Siegel wrote: >> >> >> Mark Shuttleworth wrote: >>> Alex Launi wrote: On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Mark Shuttleworth >>> > wrote: Updates-on-login are interesting,

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Sat, 2009-07-04 at 10:15 +0200, Steve Dodier wrote: > I don't think (b) is a good idea for the following reasons : > > * When the user shuts the PC down, he doesn't expect to give it > attention anymore. An update can fail or be interrupted for some > reasons (package missing on a server, inte

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On 07/06/2009 08:21 PM, David Siegel wrote: Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Alex Launi wrote: On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Mark Shuttleworth > wrote: Updates-on-login are interesting, but I think fatally flawed because of the common requirement to reboot after upd

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Alex Launi wrote: On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Mark Shuttleworth > wrote: Updates-on-login are interesting, but I think fatally flawed because of the common requirement to reboot after updates. This is actually the case where updat

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Mark Shuttleworth ha scritto: Alex Launi wrote: On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Mark Shuttleworth > wrote: Updates-on-login are interesting, but I think fatally flawed because of the common requirement to reboot after updates. This is actually the case where up

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Alex Launi wrote: > On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Mark Shuttleworth > wrote: > > Updates-on-login are interesting, but I think fatally flawed > because of the common requirement to reboot after updates. > > > This is actually the case where update on login works b

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On sab, 2009-07-04 at 15:31 -0300, Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: > > That is a good point. However, the likelihood of a failure in a > security > update that doesn't allow for a clean shutdown is very low (it never > happened to me and I use Linux since 1994). I know that perhaps it is overkill to ta

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Sat, Jul 4, 2009 at 4:03 AM, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > Updates-on-login are interesting, but I think fatally flawed because of the > common requirement to reboot after updates. > This is actually the case where update on login works best. Any other time rebooting is totally interruption. You

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

2009/7/4 Steve Dodier : >  * What about laptops ? Sometimes you shutdown your laptop because you're > about to move. Do you want, in this case, to have to wait for the upgrade to > perform ? > I know a few people who initiate the shutdown process, and as they are in a hurry will leave the shutdo

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Em Sáb, 2009-07-04 às 10:15 +0200, Steve Dodier escreveu: > I don't think (b) is a good idea for the following reasons : > > * When the user shuts the PC down, he doesn't expect to give it > attention anymore. An update can fail or be interrupted for some > reasons (package missing on a server, i

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Mark, Why not present the upgrade option in the three situations? At login, at log out/shutdown and during the session (only once per session or per day or whatever is a reasonable time)? This would be a away to encourage upgrades. The key here is to make updates at each moment optional. So that t

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

I don't think (b) is a good idea for the following reasons : * When the user shuts the PC down, he doesn't expect to give it attention anymore. An update can fail or be interrupted for some reasons (package missing on a server, internet connectivity broken, kernel upgrade asks if the menu.lst sho

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

I'm just catching up on this thread, and want to help draw it to a conclusion. Updates-on-login are interesting, but I think fatally flawed because of the common requirement to reboot after updates. Updates are an irritation and interruption at any time, we must accept that. I've seen people say

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Love the package icon, David. :) To jump into the fray, I'm not sure what the advantage is of forcing the user to wait during the upgrade rather than processing the upgrade after they've logged in. Alex's original suggestion of having the user choose to login and THEN update seems to make more s

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

You might want to read this http://lifehacker.com/5295449/disable-ubuntus-annoying-update-manager-popup Alex Launi wrote: I figured I should start a new thread for this, so that you can all continue your icon vs. pop-under debate, which is still relevant for the auto-login case, although it b

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

>> If you feel this >> is important, consider proposing a more prominent place to let users >> opt-in automated upgrades. (like, say, Ubiquity. We may place a >> "Perform the upgrades for me" checkbox just under the 'autologin' >> checkbox) >> > > That would be nice, and have it checked by default.

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:22 AM, tacone wrote: > On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:02 AM, David > Siegel wrote: >> I think this is the ideal, but every time I start to bring up implicit >> updates, I get smacked :) > Had the same experience :-) > Understandable. > I should also say that browser upgrade

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

On Thu, Jun 18, 2009 at 12:02 AM, David Siegel wrote: > I think this is the ideal, but every time I start to bring up implicit > updates, I get smacked :) Understandable. I should also say that browser upgrades are different from whole OS upgrade (not to mention we have PPA's and similar stuff).

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

I think this is the ideal, but every time I start to bring up implicit updates, I get smacked :) David Wouter Stomp wrote: On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, David Siegel wrote: Most of us would be perfectly comfortable initiating an update on shutdown, and walking away from our machine, but I'

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 8:38 PM, David Siegel wrote: > Most of us would be perfectly comfortable initiating an update on shutdown, > and walking away from our machine, but I'm not sure if less sophisticated > users are similarly comfortable behaving this way. > Most users don't care about updates

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

> My roll on the Canonical Design and User Experience team is to make Ubuntu > the most enjoyable to use operating system in the world, so I hope you can > forgive me for making "[it offers a] more pleasant experience" the main > thrust of my argument. David, as I told before, there's no intent of

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

My role! :) David David Siegel wrote: My roll on the Canonical Design and User Experience team is to make Ubuntu the most enjoyable to use operating system in the world, so I hope you can forgive me for making "[it offers a] more pleasant experience" the main thrust of my argument. I am not

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

My roll on the Canonical Design and User Experience team is to make Ubuntu the most enjoyable to use operating system in the world, so I hope you can forgive me for making "[it offers a] more pleasant experience" the main thrust of my argument. I am not decidedly in favor of updates at GDM ove

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Thinking more carefully, updates, and specially security updates, are really very, very important. So why not do it all? I mean: 1) Allow updates at login, as it is suggested here 2) Leave a permanent notification symbol on the panel while the session is on (this would take care of notifying user

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

> People who auto-login or never restart can be handled differently. > Personally, I auto-login, so I would not use this feature, but let's not > think of gurus like us, who participate on Linux mailing lists, and let's > think instead about the average user, who might be made uncomfortable by > co

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

LOL, good point. That's why I made one though, because until someone does start to express what their thoughts are, it's just a discussion floating around (which is important, don't get me wrong!) I do like the "Notification-esqu," style to your mockup much more. The present, however; that too m

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:01 PM, David Siegel wrote: > I am glad this is being explored. I originally suggested we consider > updates at GDM (1) to challenge our thinking about this problem through > inversion, and (2) to rebrand updates as something fun and exciting to > receive, not a system ma

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

David Siegel wrote: > The core of the idea is, at the face browser, there is a present icon > when you have updates already downloaded and ready to install. They > might even be unpacked already. Beside the present is a simple > description like "13 updates available, requires restart. Click to > u

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 5:46 PM, Vadim Peretokin wrote: > Why do you think so? A computer can be turned on perform a task with its > help, not to maintenance on itself. Sometimes one wants to google a map or > something quickly before leaving would be an example. > This is a less common use, and

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

> > When you turn on your computer, you are engaging with it, signaling that > you have time and attention to give to the machine. Why do you think so? A computer can be turned on perform a task with its help, not to maintenance on itself. Sometimes one wants to google a map or something quickly

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 09.26 -0500, David Siegel ha scritto: I auto-login, so I would not use this feature, but let's not think of gurus like us The argument "that's for gurus" or "power users" keeps popping up :) This can not be applied here: auto-login

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Vadim Peretokin wrote: I'll second this. In my use-case, my mother /really/ hates doing updates (only does them after a while, and hates the orange icon - I suppose that'll improve with an upgrade to jaunty). Forcing her to wait for updates after she turns on the computer for something would r

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

Il giorno mer, 17/06/2009 alle 09.26 -0500, David Siegel ha scritto: > I auto-login, so I would not use this feature, but let's not > think of gurus like us The argument "that's for gurus" or "power users" keeps popping up :) This can not be applied here: auto-login is enabled by checking an inno

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

I'll second this. In my use-case, my mother *really* hates doing updates (only does them after a while, and hates the orange icon - I suppose that'll improve with an upgrade to jaunty). Forcing her to wait for updates after she turns on the computer for something would really be backwards. Nevermi

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 4:40 PM, Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: > Are you kidding? > > Wouldn't it be much more reasonable to do this at shutdown (or logout for > users that don't shutdown). When I login, I want to my stuff. When I logout > I am saying: "I'm done for know". > When I'm finished work, I'

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On 06/17/2009 10:40 AM, Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: Wouldn't it be much more reasonable to do this at shutdown (or logout for users that don't shutdown). When I login, I want to my stuff. When I logout I am saying: "I'm done for know". Interesting that you suggest shutdown. When I shutdown, I

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: 2009/6/17 David Siegel > I think it would be interesting if the user must wait at GDM for updates to finish (assuming they were downloaded previously), and is only allowed to log in when updates have finished. This process

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

2009/6/17 David Siegel > I think it would be interesting if the user must wait at GDM for updates to > finish (assuming they were downloaded previously), and is only allowed to > log in when updates have finished. This process only takes a minute or two, > and the user can choose to not initiate

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

tacone wrote: We should definitely consider as many update scenarios as possible in order to find the one that users will prefer. We are very quick to start implementing updates and shut down without considering something radically different because many of us have experiences updates at shutdown

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

I think it would be interesting if the user must wait at GDM for updates to finish (assuming they were downloaded previously), and is only allowed to log in when updates have finished. This process only takes a minute or two, and the user can choose to not initiate the updates or cancel them an

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

> We should definitely consider as many update scenarios as possible in order > to find the one that users will prefer. We are very quick to start > implementing updates and shut down without considering something radically > different because many of us have experiences updates at shutdown when us

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:51 AM, mac_v wrote: > First of all you painted a story saying: > devs had update ready in the night and the user got the update in the > morning! That is misleading ! > It was supposed to be an allusion to some kind magic entity like god, Santa Claus, or the easter bun

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Alex Launi wrote: > > We know we have updates before we get to gdm, during the previous > session we checked and found updates, we took note of this state but > wait to take any action until next gdm. First of all you painted a story saying: devs had update ready in the night and the user got th

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:54 PM, mac_v wrote: > Your scenario is at the GDM. > You state that the the updates notification arrives just at the login! > Which cannot happen. > The usual secure wireless connection takes atleast about 10-15 sec to > connect... after which the system has to check for

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

Alex Launi wrote: I figured I should start a new thread for this, so that you can all continue your icon vs. pop-under debate, which is still relevant for the auto-login case, although it becomes much less important. I've copied and pasted the relevant posts from the previous thread into this

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Alex Launi wrote: >> > > It's Tuesday morning, you get up and turn on your computer. Whilst you > were fast asleep dreaming of sugar plums and sexy librarians Ubuntu > packagers were hard at work packaging updates for your favourite > operating system. Now that it's morning, these updates are ava

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

Ok, based on these questions I'm not convinced you carefully read my entire post. I addressed these in my story, but I'm happy to do so a second time. On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:38 PM, mac_v wrote: > The whole "dream" assumes that the downloads are already > downloaded/quickly downloaded... > Wh

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

Alex Launi wrote: >> I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... > > The whole "dream" assumes that the downloads are already downloaded/quickly downloaded... Consider users with slow connections, so the downloads take time to be initially downloaded download is larger the longer the w

[Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

I figured I should start a new thread for this, so that you can all continue your icon vs. pop-under debate, which is still relevant for the auto-login case, although it becomes much less important. I've copied and pasted the relevant posts from the previous thread into this one. Have at it. =