Re: [Ayatana] System / hardware indicator

> > Ted Gould has been a proponent of a system / hardware indicator, and > I've been working on how to handle things like USB-unmount and > Bluetooth-connect and am coming round to the idea. What do you guys > think? If there's support for the idea, we could do a round of design > work and present

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

> We should definitely consider as many update scenarios as possible in order > to find the one that users will prefer. We are very quick to start > implementing updates and shut down without considering something radically > different because many of us have experiences updates at shutdown when us

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Wed, Jun 17, 2009 at 12:51 AM, mac_v wrote: > First of all you painted a story saying: > devs had update ready in the night and the user got the update in the > morning! That is misleading ! > It was supposed to be an allusion to some kind magic entity like god, Santa Claus, or the easter bun

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Alex Launi wrote: > > We know we have updates before we get to gdm, during the previous > session we checked and found updates, we took note of this state but > wait to take any action until next gdm. First of all you painted a story saying: devs had update ready in the night and the user got th

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 9:54 PM, mac_v wrote: > Your scenario is at the GDM. > You state that the the updates notification arrives just at the login! > Which cannot happen. > The usual secure wireless connection takes atleast about 10-15 sec to > connect... after which the system has to check for

Re: [Ayatana] Idea: letting users of the testing distribution participate in testing and report feedback on different UI choices if they wish

+1 for opening the things up a bit, but with a twist. I propose the design team to open up a blog and post early mockups as soon as they come out, together with wiki page references. That would help to gather early feedback very soon, and augment hype. Provided they're confident enough to still b

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

Alex Launi wrote: I figured I should start a new thread for this, so that you can all continue your icon vs. pop-under debate, which is still relevant for the auto-login case, although it becomes much less important. I've copied and pasted the relevant posts from the previous thread into this

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login

Alex Launi wrote: >> > > It's Tuesday morning, you get up and turn on your computer. Whilst you > were fast asleep dreaming of sugar plums and sexy librarians Ubuntu > packagers were hard at work packaging updates for your favourite > operating system. Now that it's morning, these updates are ava

Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

>>This is the reason why I was asking >>Scott to produce some explicit evidence, because, so far, I have the >>impression he's mostly speaking based on his own feelings. I may be wrong >>about this, of course. >> > > You are.  I have tried to monitor all the public feedback about this change > the

Re: [Ayatana] System / hardware indicator

On Tue, 2009-06-16 at 14:21 +0100, Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > Ted Gould has been a proponent of a system / hardware indicator, and > I've been working on how to handle things like USB-unmount and > Bluetooth-connect and am coming round to the idea. What do you guys > think? If there's support

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

Ok, based on these questions I'm not convinced you carefully read my entire post. I addressed these in my story, but I'm happy to do so a second time. On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:38 PM, mac_v wrote: > The whole "dream" assumes that the downloads are already > downloaded/quickly downloaded... > Wh

Re: [Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

Alex Launi wrote: >> I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... > > The whole "dream" assumes that the downloads are already downloaded/quickly downloaded... Consider users with slow connections, so the downloads take time to be initially downloaded download is larger the longer the w

Re: [Ayatana] Idea: letting users of the testing distribution participate in testing and report feedback on different UI choices if they wish

Martín Soto ha scritto: 2009/6/16 Vincenzo Ciancia > Please, let's keep the "this is something that only power user like/dislike" old argument out of this discussion. I see this is not your intention, but as we are all power users this is an effective

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

Alex, They were responding to my question of auto-downloading, nothing that you said. Thank you for clearing this up, it's very difficult to see all the sides of the puzzle, and I really appreciate the responses... -Anthony On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 11:10 AM, Alex Launi wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16,

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 8:06 PM, mac_v wrote: > AFAIK Auto downloads of the updates is far worse! > 1: user might be using 3G at some point where the downloads cost a lot! > 2: downloads while i'm watching streaming video content would cause the > lags in my videos which i would hate. > Who said

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

ajmctaggart wrote: > > Again, just a user here... > However, Windows does give the option to download the updates in the > background then notify when they've fully downloaded. > > Would a behavior similar to this make the "updates on login," option any > more tempting? > AFAIK Auto downloads

Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 19:31:54 +0200 Martín Soto wrote: >This is the reason why I was asking >Scott to produce some explicit evidence, because, so far, I have the >impression he's mostly speaking based on his own feelings. I may be wrong >about this, of course. > You are. I have tried to monitor a

Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

2009/6/16 Vincenzo Ciancia > Please, let's keep the "this is something that only power user > like/dislike" old argument out of this discussion. I see this is not > your intention, but as we are all power users this is an effective > dialectic technique to lower the value of our observations. I

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 10:06 AM, mac_v wrote: > Alex Launi wrote: > > I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... > > > > > The whole "dream" assumes that the downloads are already > downloaded/quickly downloaded... > > Consider users with slow connections, so the downloads take time

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

Alex Launi wrote: > I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... > The whole "dream" assumes that the downloads are already downloaded/quickly downloaded... Consider users with slow connections, so the downloads take time to be initially downloaded download is larger the longer the wai

Re: [Ayatana] System / hardware indicator

Em Ter, 2009-06-16 às 15:48 +0200, Vincenzo Ciancia escreveu: > On 16/06/2009 Mark Shuttleworth wrote: > > > > Ted Gould has been a proponent of a system / hardware indicator, and > > I've been working on how to handle things like USB-unmount and > > Bluetooth-connect and am coming round to the

[Ayatana] Updates on Login (was: Re: [Fwd: Update manager])

I figured I should start a new thread for this, so that you can all continue your icon vs. pop-under debate, which is still relevant for the auto-login case, although it becomes much less important. I've copied and pasted the relevant posts from the previous thread into this one. Have at it. =

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

> Awesome, right? Not sure about what your whole reply meant. I think that notifying on startup has many disadvantage and it's not applicable in some cases (kernel upgrades, autologin). It's not wonder windows why asks for it at the shutdown. ___ Mailin

Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

> Would you mind showing us some evidence of said "overwhelmingly negatively" > reaction? From what I've seen on the mailing lists so far, those complaining > about the update pop-under mostly belong to a small, yet very vocal group of > power users. Are you joking ? Count the unique users on thi

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 6:14 PM, Charlie Kravetz wrote: > What about those who use an autologin? They will never see those gdm > screens. > Like I said, update-manager doesn't go away. It just gets more or less deprecated for most users. For this small subset we just fallback to current behaviou

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

...This was hilarious, sexy librarians and all... Me personally, I don't have a *huge *issue presenting updates at the beginning of a log-in sequence. As a user, you know they are there, and you either ignore or proceed. I can't help but think though, that when I login to my desktop normally, the

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 18:09:24 +0200 Alex Launi wrote: > On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone wrote: > > > Good intent, bad idea. > > > > I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... > > > It's Tuesday morning, you get up and turn on your computer. Whilst > you were fast asleep drea

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 5:06 PM, tacone wrote: > Good intent, bad idea. > I disagree, let's imagine this scenario, together... It's Tuesday morning, you get up and turn on your computer. Whilst you were fast asleep dreaming of sugar plums and sexy librarians Ubuntu packagers were hard at work

Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

Il giorno mar, 16/06/2009 alle 17.17 +0200, Martín Soto ha scritto: > > > Would you mind showing us some evidence of said "overwhelmingly > negatively" reaction? > From what I've seen on the mailing lists so far, those complaining > about the update pop-under mostly belong to a small, ye

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

Alex Launi wrote: > His idea was to do updates at login. > We could do the checking while you're using, and then if we find them on - 10 ...! I hate to be delayed during the startup! and to reboot even before the work gets started! its a regression to the whole quick start process! cheers, mac_

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

Il giorno mar, 16/06/2009 alle 19.52 +0530, mac_v ha scritto: > Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > It would be logical to use this in the modal window that asks for the > password... > When it is in the modal window ,the user will recognize the difference > while entering the password. That'd be much easi

Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:20 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:40:12 +0530 mac_v wrote: > ... > >It is accepted that the icon is NOT very useful and also ignored > ... > > I have to disagree. This has been repeatedly asserted, but I don't recall > any actual studies that suppor

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

Alex Launi wrote: > David Siegel also had a really great idea for making updates fun (and it > also solves the issue of how to handle updates- notification icon or > pop-under window) at the "install updates on shutdown" discussion. Let me > preface this with these are his ideas and not mine, I thi

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

> David Siegel also had a really great idea for making updates fun (and it > also solves the issue of how to handle updates- notification icon or > pop-under window) at the "install updates on shutdown" discussion. Let me > preface this with these are his ideas and not mine, I think they're great >

Re: [Ayatana] System / hardware indicator

2009/6/16 Mark Shuttleworth : > > Ted Gould has been a proponent of a system / hardware indicator, and I've > been working on how to handle things like USB-unmount and Bluetooth-connect > and am coming round to the idea. What do you guys think? If there's support > for the idea, we could do a round

Re: [Ayatana] System / hardware indicator

I would definitely enjoy having that accessible as a user...while things are far from bad the way they are in terms of hardware/system...there are often those times I have to pause and remember the "Gnome," way of getting to that particular menu or function... Would love to see what you have in mi

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > It's not offtopic in my opinion as exactly this machinery could be used > in the infamous popup to address the concern of many, but can be moved > elsewhere or dropped if it has obvious flaws that I don't see. > Oh ! no! Pls not in the pop-up... pop-up idea should be re-

Re: [Ayatana] System / hardware indicator

On 16/06/2009 Mark Shuttleworth wrote: Ted Gould has been a proponent of a system / hardware indicator, and I've been working on how to handle things like USB-unmount and Bluetooth-connect and am coming round to the idea. What do you guys think? If there's support for the idea, we could do a

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

I had meant to chat with Martin Pitt after his plenary, but never managed to catch up with him. I forgot about it until I was going through my notebook the other day. It would be really great if when update-manager presented itself, some bugs (ones that you reported/subscribed to on LP) had a nice

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

On 16/06/2009 Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: Thinking a little bit more about Vincenzo suggestion. It is not clear to me how the application that is asking for root access can present some information that is only readable by root. Anyhow, this is a security problem and maybe we are getting off topic

Re: [Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On 16/06/2009 Natan Yellin wrote: This relates to an idea I had at UDS about ubuntu-bug, it would be really sweet if we could tie ubuntu-bug and update-manager together, so what when a bug you're subscribed to is fixed in an update, you get some kind of feedback from update-manager. For m

[Ayatana] System / hardware indicator

Ted Gould has been a proponent of a system / hardware indicator, and I've been working on how to handle things like USB-unmount and Bluetooth-connect and am coming round to the idea. What do you guys think? If there's support for the idea, we could do a round of design work and present it here for

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

Thinking a little bit more about Vincenzo suggestion. It is not clear to me how the application that is asking for root access can present some information that is only readable by root. Anyhow, this is a security problem and maybe we are getting off topic here. best, Paulo ___

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

On 16/06/2009 Natan Yellin wrote: A few websites use a similar trick and display a custom image which the user chooses. I think it's a bit of a better solution than using a phrase, because people are more likely to notice if it changes. Hmm, if I enter "fatti non fummo a viver come bruti" and

[Ayatana] Fwd: Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

Forwarding to the list. -- Forwarded message -- From: Alex Launi Date: Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 3:35 PM Subject: Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager]) To: Natan Yellin On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:39 PM, Natan Yellin wrote: > What about trying to e

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

Paulo J. S. Silva wrote: > mac_v, > > You raised very interesting point that the possibility of applications > asking the user for root access without proving themselves as real > system applications is a security risk. However I do not think the orage > icon can solve this problem. It is true tha

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 1:00 PM, Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > On 16/06/2009 mac_v wrote: > >> In no way the system should decide what windows it can open... >> If this is allowed it is only a matter of time before someone develops a >> worm which uses this behavior and pops-up a window similar to the

Re: [Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On Tue, Jun 16, 2009 at 2:20 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: > On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:40:12 +0530 mac_v wrote: > ... > >It is accepted that the icon is NOT very useful and also ignored > ... > > I have to disagree. This has been repeatedly asserted, but I don't recall > any actual studies that suppor

Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 357150] Re: Regression vs notification-daemon: Notify-osd doesn't deal with a large number of notifications well

My opinion is that an application that needs to send so many notifications in a short period of time is doing it wrong. If there is so much input the user should be aware of then the app should tell it to open it's GUI instead of libnotify-spam. 2009/6/16 Mark Shuttleworth > > Given that there i

[Ayatana] Getting users to care (was Re: [Fwd: Re: Update manager])

On Tue, 16 Jun 2009 11:40:12 +0530 mac_v wrote: ... >It is accepted that the icon is NOT very useful and also ignored ... I have to disagree. This has been repeatedly asserted, but I don't recall any actual studies that support this. This change has been overwhelmingly negatively received by

Re: [Ayatana] [Bug 357150] Re: Regression vs notification-daemon: Notify-osd doesn't deal with a large number of notifications well

Given that there is another dup of the "long queue" issue, I'm cc'ing the Ayatana list. Ayatana team, for reference: https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/357150 https://bugs.launchpad.net/bugs/334809 MPT, can you point to a spec for the 9.10 queue throttling behaviour, that captures the ideas

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

mac_v, You raised very interesting point that the possibility of applications asking the user for root access without proving themselves as real system applications is a security risk. However I do not think the orage icon can solve this problem. It is true that a malicious application can fake th

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

Vincenzo Ciancia wrote: > > Do you think it is easy to design a webpage that simulates such a > "password fraud"? I see a difficulty here due to having to dim the whole > screen to look like the standard password request, not that an user > would not enter it in any kind of pop-up. > Actually th

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager] - a secure way to ask for information

On 16/06/2009 mac_v wrote: In no way the system should decide what windows it can open... If this is allowed it is only a matter of time before someone develops a worm which uses this behavior and pops-up a window similar to the update manager which also asks for the user password allowing the

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager]

On 16/06/2009 Ryan Prior wrote: I don't see the popups as intrusive. No information is being sent outside the computer. A window is being opened so that you see it, because it very important and it absolutely needs your attention. It's not as though some foreign entity is intruding upon your com

Re: [Ayatana] [Fwd: Re: Update manager]

Hello people, My email may be asynchronous but i barely could follow this thread, yet i wanted to say a few words on it since i fell on an interesting bug today on launchpad. My understanding of indicator-applet is that it is designed for apps-to-user communication and apparently only used by "so