Mixing \f(CW with '.FP lucidasans' results in text that is wildly out
of proportion. To my eye, the CW font needs to be scaled down by
about 1.5 points to visually match the surrounding text (at the -ms
default point size). I'm curious if this has annoyed anyone else
enough that they've come up w
Anybody have a copy of dformat online? For the 4th time I've lost
mine, and I don't relish typing it in yet again from the Labs TR ...
--lyndon
Sweet -- thanks! (That wasn't there the last three times ...)
--- Begin Message ---
> Anybody have a copy of dformat online?
http://www.troff.org/source.html
-Steve
--- End Message ---
> And then use .EX and .EE around code examples (concept
> lifted from the man macros).
For offset code CW seems fine. My problem involves imbedding
CW inline. E.g.
.TS
tab(#);
l0w(.1i) l0w(.1i) lw(.1i) l .
\&...#/##Message store root.
#/1##A message in the root folder.
#/2##\f2Ibid.\fP
#/stuff#/
> Please try it out and see if it looks like sources from your
> perspective. You may want to change your authdom declaration for
> outside.plan9.bell-labs.com in /lib/ndb to
Geoff, I did a walk of /n/sources/contrib and /n/haggis/contrib,
and the latter is missing quite a few files:
48257 4
> Please mail reports, good or bad, to me, not 9fans;
> there's no need to add to the volume of traffic on 9fans for this.
How about we convince the mailing list software to stop
inserting Reply-To headers.
> is this english++? i just can't parse it.
If we all ignore him he might go away ...
> relax
If I want platitudes I have the whole rest of the internet to gorge
on. Here we try to do actual content.
You don't need to do anything special for BIND to slave from your
Plan9 master. I have a BIND slaving from a Plan 9 master without any
issues.
On the Plan 9 master, start ndb/dns with the -n flag, and add dnsslave
entries to /lib/ndb/local for each of your slave hosts. Here are the
relevant entri
> linux$ dig @ns1.nanosouffle.net _jabber._tcp.mail.nanosouffle.net srv
> ;; Warning: Message parser reports malformed message packet.
Is ns1 the Plan9 master? What do the zone files on the BIND slave look like?
I.e. did the SRV entries transfer correctly?
> The trouble with this is that the same string can appear more than
> once (before, after the field, ...), so the simple substitution isn't
> enough.
It's sounding like awk is the wrong tool. It should be trivial to code
up a short piece of C to do the job.
Has anyone taken a crack at running a current Plan 9 under
Microsoft's standalone Hyper-V distribution? It's been a year
and a month since this last came up on the list, and a lot has
happened since then ...
--lyndon
> such as the beagleboard, which
> are good enough to be a desktop
Ethernet? My kingdom for Ethernet on one of those!
Is USB Ethernet really viable? It would be nice to hear from anyone
actually doing it (with performance numbers).
--lyndon
> is t possible that the path mtu is < 1500 bytes? if
> so, trampoline isn't going to forward icmp messages.
Trampoline just copies the sequence of data bytes. It doesn't know
anything about IP or ICMP datagrams.
> Varian Data, General Automation, SDS/XDS, DEC, Data General, Honeywell, CDC,
> GE
I don't think DEC deserves this branding. In my experience they were
one of the most open hardware companies around. Back when they were still
DEC, of course.
--lyndon
Is anyone working on Unichrome vga support?
> Besides Unichrome, which CPU, RAM, MB & ~bridge chips are you trying to use
> it with?
>
> ISTR having it up on a VIA C3 ~ 700 MHz, 1 GB SDRAM with embedded Unichrome
> onboard about 2+ years ago..
It's a 1GHz C7 EPIA mini-ITX board, CN400 chipset (I *think* -- I
can't get at it right this se
> I'm not familiar with the berkeley work.
Me either. Any chance of some references to this?
>From last week's ACM Technews ...
Why Desktop Multiprocessing Has Speed Limits
Computerworld (10/05/09) Vol. 43, No. 30, P. 24; Wood, Lamont
Despite the mainstreaming of multicore processors for desktops, not
every desktop application can be rewritten for multicore frameworks,
which means some b
> contrast /386/bin/sleep, a non-trivial
> executable, at 4422 bytes on my system — 100x smaller.
#include
#include
int main(void){exits(nil);}
is 3317 bytes on my atom box.
bio(2) doesn't support files opened for read+write; Looking
at the implementation I don't see why it couldn't.
Was this excluded for a particular reason?
--lyndon
> Is there an easy way to transpose the text so that rows become
> columns, and vice versa? Delimiter is space. Perhaps in AWK?
If Richard's trick won't work, grab contrib/lyndon/transpose.c.
It's dog slow (actually, avl(2) is), but its effectively
unbounded for the input dataset size.
--lyndon
> i haven't found avl to be slow, so i was interested in
> this.
It was slow in relation to other methods available. That code wasn't
written to be fast. It came out of a long ago Sunday afternoon
discussion I had with someone about data structures, from which we
ended up cobbling together a few
> I'll put up a youtube movie in the next while, but there is a video of
> iwp9 I think on the subject.
And for those of us using only Plan9 to troll the Interweeb, isn't there
a one paragraph text summary someplace?
> linux is actually quite easy and has been for about 12 years or more
> ... not sure of the others.
I was running diskless Windows in 1995; it wasn't pretty, but it could
be done. These days you can run XP+ diskless if you have the right
Windows Server and installation tools fu.
The following code results in:
8.out 15340: suicide: sys: fp: invalid operation fppc=0x108f
status=0x8081 pc=0x1028
#include
#include
void main(int, char *) {
double foo;
foo = NaN();
exits(0);
}
Anybody have a 10th Edition f77 manpage they could email me?
* Mail client and server (SMTP, IMAP, running mailing lists).
* Net infrastructure (DNS, DHCP, FTP, file server).
* Long term file storage archive (36GB of iTunes mirror, repository
of ISO images for software distributions, documentation archive,
and some day soon a copy of my DVD collection).
> (I want the data outside the limits to be ignored...)
> What am I doing wrong?
Not filtering your input data? grap's only intent is to typeset the
data you feed it. 'coord' sets the ranges for the graph scales. It
doesn't filter the data -- that's your job. (As a typesetting design
device I
> du -a | awk '-F\t' '{print $2}' -
All this nonsense because the dogmatists refuse to accept
/n/sources/contrib/cross/walk.c into the distribution.
> what seems more important to me is a way to unlimit the size
> of argv. otherwise we'll need to go down the hideous xargs path.
How often have you run up against the current limit? I've yet to hit
it in anything other than contrived tests. And even those took work.
> find and walk are about
The Wiki's supported hardware list is getting quite moldy.
I've created a new page for known broken hardware, working on
the theory that people pissed off are more likely to document
breakage than the blissful are their success.
It's linked from the supported hardware page.
--lyndon
> i believe that richard miller has the intel D945GCLF2
> working via some careful hacking. (i.e. a hand-coded
> mp table.)
It was easier to buy something that actually worked. As for that
Intel piece of shit, I'm going to blend it during the transition
to 2010.
--lyndon
> i think it would be more valuable to explain exactly what's
> not working and point to some of the workarounds, if they exist.
What's not working is the ACPI component of the BIOS. The P9 boot
fails very early on (right after E820 I think). FreeBSD runs, but
something in the ACPI code wakes up
> Do you think you'd recommend Parallels over VirtualBox? I've not tried plan
> 9 on VirtualBox as I usually opt to run it on real hardware where I can, and
> 9vx or drawterm to connect.
Forget about VirtualBox. It's nowhere near ready for prime time on
MacOS or Solaris. The only thing I've ever
> From the inspections of Cinap and I, albeit a while back,
> Erik's FS does not take NVR from floppy.
So is it worth it to try to nail down a driver that can talk to at
least some of the on-motherboard NVRAM present on today's crop of
x86/amd64 motherboards?
There is anecdotal evidence of past
I finally got around to watching Russ' Acid talk, but the video
I have end about 26 minutes in -- just into the discussion about
kernel debugging. I'm not sure if this was a problem with the source
video, or just my copy, which looks like:
lyn...@frodo% ls -l IWP*; sha1sum IWP*
--rw-r--r-- M 51 ly
Given a foofs which serves the writable file /mnt/foo, is there
any reliable way to distinguish between
% cat > /mnt/foo
type some
text and quit
^D
%
and
% cat > /mnt/foo
type some
text, then change your mind and hit
%
at
Russ says:
> i don't believe these two cases can be distinguished.
> in particular i think you'd only see the Tflush if the first
> Twrite was still in flight when you typed DEL. assuming
> the first write had completed before DEL, the two scenarios
> are indistinguishable other than the different
> You shouldn't be worried about
> an accidental collision. You should be worried about
> an intentional collision.
Seems to me you should be worried about both.
>> Seems to me you should be worried about both.
>
> let's not get carried away. the odds of accidental
> collision are 1 2^80.
And being worried about both leads to the choice of SHA-1 as a suitable
algorithm. If we weren't worried about it I'm sure some bright light would
have picked ROT-13 fo
> i suspect the rationale was that, finally, C provided a way
> outside the preprocessor to give symbolic names to constants.
> why restrict that to int?
Because enum's have been int's since their inception?
I'm sympathetic to the underlying need, but making a fundamental
type of the language sud
> why does being able to switch on any enum trump
> the ability to define constants without #define?
Because enum's legacy is that of a 'first class' int-like
object, which can be subject to the usual set of int-like
operations. switch() is one of those. #define isn't.
> if you try, sizeof(foo)==
Has anyone cooked up some acid to track leaking file descriptors
(ala leak for memory)?
--lyndon
> Has anyone considered / tried to port the Heiroom version of troff?
> Has anyone any comment about why doing so would be a bad idea?
No sense tossing the baby overboard. But it's worth examining the changes
the Heirloom folks have made to see what would make sense to backport. They've
certainly
> cat /proc/$pid/fd
I already know the bloody thing is open :-P
I just wondered if someone had come up with some glue to intercept
open()/close()/dup()/etc and track the fd's in an acid list, or
something similar.
> Okay, but then (as an admin) you have to know which apps have
> to be recompiled. For a small system this might be okay, but
> that doesnt scale well ;-o
Plan 9 _is_ a small system.
> I think mostly Macs with p9p.
The Go(ogle) announcement video combined with running platforms
indicate MacOS.
> well, you can make it explicit.. path=(/bin)
Which really should be the default, or at least path=(/bin .).
Putting '.' at the front means that wherever you're cd'ed into a
remote directory, every command you run is 9Peeing off to the remote
host looking for a command that's most likely not goi
> using awk is still faster
For the curious and lazy ... why is that?
> Just goes to show why I'm asking for some consolidation :-)
Mines better!!! :-)
I really think this idea that duplication of things in contrib is bad,
is bad (or just a red herring).
For ports of big applications (python, say), the amount of work involved
is going to self-limit the number of ports right up front. And the ones
that do make it will self-select based on the qual
While we're talking about ndb ... what's the status of the ipv6= tag?
Last week I was setting up IPv6 on a network and was adding
ipv6=2001:... entries in ndb as per the manpages. I lost the better
part of a day trying to figure out why the records weren't being
propagated to the DNS slaves
> It's still undecided how to best cope with a mixed v4 and v6
> world. I don't expect the ipv6 attribute to go away.
I like the new (to me, anyway) ip= behaviour. parseip() and isv4()
provide everything that's needed at the C level to distinguish the
two. ndb/dns already does this right thing
> And there just aren't
> enough Plan 9 developers to produce alternatives.
Then there cannot possibly be enough to port the auto* abortion.
> But there ought to be a sane
> alternative and it should not be anywhere as complex.
There is: it's called POSIX.
> surely your joking, mr. nerenberg!
Nope. Over the past 10 years I can only think of one or two projects
I did that required platform-specific optimizations outside of POSIX.
> (because it supplies the correct info for non-Plan 9 hosts).
What info did your hosts need that Plan 9's dhcpd didn't supply?
I have three native machines:
Supermicro 5015A-H w/500GB IDE: fossil/venti/auth/dhcpd/tftpd
Supermicro 5015A-H (diskless): CPU server
Via EPIA-EK (1GHz C3 Eden-N processor) (diskless): terminal
When I move back onto the boat I will be adding another CPU server
with a whack of serial ports th
> You should also add:
> http://code.google.com/p/unix-jun72/source/browse/trunk/src/cmd/cat.s
Which returns 1062 lines of HTML+Javascript, completely unreadable
in Abaco.
The irony is stunning.
--lyndon
> not to spoil the irony, but that works here.
And now it works here, too. Before I was getting a blank window, or
one line of "link ref=..." verbiage.
Now that I think of it, I was seeing similar behaviour last week from other
sites. I wonder if webfs is having problems ...
You're making this way more complicated than it needs to be.
For 3rd party stuff, I put the source tree in /usr/lyndon/src/,
adjust the mkfiles to install in /usr/lyndon/bin/$objtype, and say
'mk install'. I keep a shadow man tree under /usr/lyndon/lib/man,
and then bind it all on top of the syste
> also this method is unwieldy with a many user
> system.
It is? Why? If a user wants personal source and binaries, they set
it up. It doesn't impact me one way or the other.
For system-wide stuff I still keep the code in /usr/lyndon/src, but
adjust the mkfiles to install directly into the sys
>> > even on a single user system, doesn't it
>> > suck when you can find a few programs that
>> > are in your own bin?
>>
>> Sorry, I can't parse that this early in the morning.
>
> sorry. forgot "when you're running as the hostowner".
I still don't get it. Why would finding things I put in my
> you would not find them. the hostowner, unless that's you,
> would be unwise to bind your bin into /bin.
They're *personal* binaries. The hostowner doesn't need them.
> in the end everything is easy for those who know
> how to do it.
And god forbid people actually learn anything.
> multiply by several levels of bindings and it will become
> a large mental burden to remember what's available where.
Practice says otherwise. The only change to the binds since I set
it up (years ago) was adding $home/bin/rcaux->/bin/aux last fall.
> why do you presume i haven't tried this?
Because you claim it doesn't work. I have evidence it does work.
Arm wrestle at 5? :-)
> Oh, yeah, lets all learn about namespaces and the counterintuitive
> things they do and don't do, and compiling and everything to do when
> it goes wrong, and a billion other things JUST to save devs having to
> work out a good solution!
Look, if you're too damned lazy (or stupid) to give
> if you want to
> find how the modifications to /386/lib/libc.a, you know where that
> is. if you bind 100 packages on top of /386/lib, it becomes necessary
> to deconstruct namespaces continually. the abstraction of namespace
> starts to break down.
Dump deals with 'physical' paths; you have t
> you've got to be able to get at the history to begin
> with. *that's* the problem. lyndon's right, history
> doesn't work even on the usual union directories.
> compounding the problem doesn't seem like the
> right way to go.
Should history work on /env, too?
Dump is tool for a specific type
> what's the fileserver behind /bin?
Whatever you want it to be. That's the beauty of Plan 9.
But if you can't remember how you organized your shit, George
Carlin has a number of self-help records ;-)
For ages I've run diskless terminals under Parallels, and aux/vga would
quite cheerfully resize the Parallels window to match anything I told it.
Recently I had to migrate from Parallels to Fusion. Resizing doesn't work any
more.
Furthermore, I'm buggered if I can programmatically figure out wh
[ Let me try again, this time hitting Post vs |fmt :-) ]
For ages I've run diskless terminals under Parallels, and aux/vga would
quite cheerfully resize the Parallels window to match anything I told it.
Recently I had to migrate from Parallels to Fusion. Resizing doesn't
work any more. Further
> /n/sources/contrib/cinap_lenrek/draw.c
Works great -- thanks.
> The purpose is allowing an spooling (store+forward) mail relay
> to learn which addresses are not accepted by the actual maildrop
> (which is connected by an uucp-link, so no direct smtp chat),
> to get rid of the thousands silly error bounces from brute force
> attacks on email addresses.
Very(
> This requires the remote uucp site to give you a Bloom
> filter with all the valid addresses inserted, but that seems
> unavoidable. I don't know how the opposite-of-Bloom-filter
> approach would work anyway.
One problem with this is handling wildcarded addresses. How do you indicate
(say) lynd
> i think the idea of spooling email is largely discredited.
It's not a spam avoidance trick. It's how I get around arbitrary
blockage of SMTP/submission port injection when I'm not sitting at
home. If you read your mail on a laptop, it's the easiest way around
all the ISP/Hotel/Public-WIFI filt
> Tell the accepting site to strip +* from all the email addresses
> before checking. There aren't that many cases like that.
There aren't many, but at least one that I care about exists. The
case is one-off throw away addresses. When I send a message, I
generate an address crypto-based on the
> okay, there must be more to the story. why do you need crypto
> secure burner email addresses to avoid spam?
If I could tell you that, I wouldn't need them.
Given the overlap between (DM|QT)EXCL, it's not clear to me which
of these is considered the authority for indicating exclusive access.
devusb.c plays with DMEXCL, devcons.c with QTEXCL. I'm assumed the
DMEXCL bit was magically getting propagated down to QTEXCL in
qid.type, but I'll be damned if
> thinking about it... why not just let stream() fail and let the program
> decide if it makes sense to continue without it?
Exactly what I was thinking. If the program requires the semantics of
stream(), it should be able to reliably discover when they aren't
available.
> I mean with support for say its every hardware part?
You can't even do that with UNIX these days :-p
Does anyone have a copy of the 9doom code they could put up on
contrib?
> The documentation is on the wiki, such as it is, and in the 9fans
> archives.
And /sys/doc/*. Read *everything* under that directory.
>> What exactly do you mean, PPP over USB?
> Google "PPP over USB". I've googled, red 9fans archive,
> wiki and docs before posting here.
In theory, your 3G data stick should export a serial device interface,
and therefore usb/serial should map it to /dev/eiaUx/eiaUx (where x is
a small integer).
> There are some newish fanless intel mini-itx motherboards about, anyone
> had one of these boot plan9? I had poor results from the previous generation
> due to unhelpful BIOS.
Try to get your hands on a C3-based board. They tend to predate much of
the ACPI crap that has infested the BIOS space
> I think it is worth looking at a successor protocol instead
> of just minimally fixing up 9p (a clean slate approach frees
> up your mind. You can then merge the two later).
9p is fine for what it is. If you want to talk to Mars, a new
metaphor is required, not the rape and bastardization of 9
> apic ids can be found in the madt table, from acpi, iirc.
Heh. You assume a correct ACPI BIOS implementation. The worst
offenders I've seen have been Intel-designed motherboards :-P
> the madt table or the mp tables reflect a snaphot of *all*
> the i/o apics and lapics in the system at the time when bios handed
> control over to the operating system (sic.).
No it doesn't. That's the bug in the BIOS -- it screws up building
the table. I have an Intel mini-ITX board sitting in
> by definition, a bug in your bios doesn't change the specification,
True. But a "specification" that doesn't run the same way on any
two models of motherboard isn't much of one.
Someone in the past few days alluded to a git port. I'll be buggered
if I can find the message in the list archives. Does this exist?
Where?
> He would get pretty exercised about keep-alives. Felt that it was not
> the business of TCP to make these kinds of decisions. I can't remember
> if he actually called them an abomination, but at the same time, one
> was left with the feeling that he might have.
I'm sure he's called them worse th
> Just now I am reading "Unix Text Processing" by Dale Dougherty and Tim
> O'Reilly, a freely available book (pmartin proposes it as well). There
> are several chapters on the topic, so perhaps I'll get what I want in
> the end.
I was going to mention that one, but I figured it was so long out of
> I have only hesitated over the way (as described in my original, 1st,
> post) how references that *depend on physical placement* of certain
> text are to be coped with. (As with my page headings; or---probably
> even harder so that at least 2-runs of troff are
> inevitable---references to page nu
> My theory is that GNU tools were so bloated by design that they
> realized that they couldn't write a decent man page for their tools
> so they invented the info pages and the --help flag.
In fairness to info, you have to consider its history. The want was
to be able to present an online edit
> i take this as another strike against info. the fact that one
> sees that the editor's docs are 400+ pages, and there's no easy
> way to cut that down to a man page, and yet they proceeded to
> build bloatware to accomidate bloatware.
That's like blaming Mozilla because you choose to read Sarah
> This is not new. "Politicians" are socialbots generating sentences from
> a limited set of "politically correct" chunks (this means: that don't
> make sense) and have, still, millions of followers... and cause millions
> of deaths too...
Listen, just because we called an election today ... wait
Am I the only person still an hour behind the PST->PDT shift?
I recall this happening last year, too ...
> did you not copy the new US_Pacific to /adm/timezone/local?
Being in Canada_Pacific, no. I see an update is required.
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