Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs

[Roland Knall]

I think before we submit this patch, we should agree on a general UI
concept going forward.

TL;DR: I think tabs for the main window is the wrong approach and will
alienate a lot of users


There are basically three main uses for tabs in an application (besides
from preference dialogs).

The first approach is your basic webbrowser, who displays multiple webpages
in each individual tab. This actually is something Apple tries to enforce
anyway and others do as well, but always the content of the tabs are
similar. It is always a webcontent or a textdocument,  They can be
opened and closed individually and do not care about or influence each
other. The Wireshark equivalent would be a capture file. IO Graph and the
packet list do influence each other deeply, as does the packet list and
every other dialog.

Now in the second approach (e.g. iTunes or music player application), you
may have tabs which present you the same data in a different method  (Album,
Artists, Playlist, ...). In these cases the tabs are always present, their
view can be toggled, but in reality they are always there. Equivalent in
Wireshark would be, that all dialogs are generated on capture file load and
be always there, but hidden.

If tabs are not used for the main window, the usually are being used as
utility tabs (see your favorite IDE e.g. QtCreator, Visual Studio, Eclipse,
...). This would be the third approach. They present additional information
to the main document, a search possibility, graphical representation, 

Wireshark's dialogs do not present different, independant data (first
approach), but in the most cases an aggregated view (third approach) and
sometimes an alternative view (second approach). Therefore, making them
tabs to the main window is contradictory (as stated above). Users would
have a program which operates very different to other programs they use
daily. Making dialogs tabs to a utility window (byte view, packet detail)
seems more to be the natural method. And then they can be dockable as well.

One last (but important) argument is screen size. A lot of people have big
screens now. The tabbed approach for the main window really only makes
sense on smaller screens. On a big screen tabs do not lead to a better
utilisation of the space, making the work with a lot of tabs more
cumbersome.

regards
Roland

Am So., 6. Mai 2018 um 09:37 Uhr schrieb Paul Offord <
paul.off...@advance7.com>:

> > I *think* Windows DLLs may also function as shared libraries.
>
> They do.  One instance in RAM mapped into the virtual address space of any
> process referencing the DLL.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wireshark-dev  On Behalf Of
> Guy Harris
> Sent: 05 May 2018 19:25
> To: Developer support list for Wireshark 
> Subject: Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs
>
> On May 5, 2018, at 10:04 AM, Peter Wu  wrote:
>
> > Memory usage will probably suck due to exact copies of the process,
>
> On most if not all UN*Xes, the executable image's code and read-only data,
> and libwireshark's/libwiretap's/libwsutil's code and read-only data, should
> be shared between all of the processes.
>
> You won't, however, share the results of reading in configuration files,
> e.g. the new fields added by reading in the RADIUS and DIAMETER
> dictionaries...
>
> ...unless they're read in by the UI process, and handed to the dissector
> processes as (read-only) shared memory.
>
> I *think* Windows DLLs may also function as shared libraries.
> ___
> Sent via:Wireshark-dev mailing list 
> Archives:https://www.wireshark.org/lists/wireshark-dev
> Unsubscribe: https://www.wireshark.org/mailman/options/wireshark-dev
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Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs

[Paul Offord]

A couple of things I’ve noted.  Microsoft Message Analyzer uses tabs in the 
main window but I confess I don’t think I’ve used them to look at multiple 
traces.

Second point, maybe dockable windows would be better.  We use Telerik for 
Workbench and it provides a typical dockable window mechanism.  This meets both 
needs.  If you dock one window on top of another you get tabs.  Or you can 
undock a window and move it to another monitor.  By the way, I’m not promoting 
Telerik here, just using it for illustration.

Best regards…Paul

From: Wireshark-dev  On Behalf Of Roland 
Knall
Sent: 07 May 2018 09:17
To: Developer support list for Wireshark 
Subject: Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs

I think before we submit this patch, we should agree on a general UI concept 
going forward.

TL;DR: I think tabs for the main window is the wrong approach and will alienate 
a lot of users


There are basically three main uses for tabs in an application (besides from 
preference dialogs).

The first approach is your basic webbrowser, who displays multiple webpages in 
each individual tab. This actually is something Apple tries to enforce anyway 
and others do as well, but always the content of the tabs are similar. It is 
always a webcontent or a textdocument,  They can be opened and closed 
individually and do not care about or influence each other. The Wireshark 
equivalent would be a capture file. IO Graph and the packet list do influence 
each other deeply, as does the packet list and every other dialog.

Now in the second approach (e.g. iTunes or music player application), you may 
have tabs which present you the same data in a different method  (Album, 
Artists, Playlist, ...). In these cases the tabs are always present, their view 
can be toggled, but in reality they are always there. Equivalent in Wireshark 
would be, that all dialogs are generated on capture file load and be always 
there, but hidden.

If tabs are not used for the main window, the usually are being used as utility 
tabs (see your favorite IDE e.g. QtCreator, Visual Studio, Eclipse, ...). This 
would be the third approach. They present additional information to the main 
document, a search possibility, graphical representation, 

Wireshark's dialogs do not present different, independant data (first 
approach), but in the most cases an aggregated view (third approach) and 
sometimes an alternative view (second approach). Therefore, making them tabs to 
the main window is contradictory (as stated above). Users would have a program 
which operates very different to other programs they use daily. Making dialogs 
tabs to a utility window (byte view, packet detail) seems more to be the 
natural method. And then they can be dockable as well.

One last (but important) argument is screen size. A lot of people have big 
screens now. The tabbed approach for the main window really only makes sense on 
smaller screens. On a big screen tabs do not lead to a better utilisation of 
the space, making the work with a lot of tabs more cumbersome.

regards
Roland

Am So., 6. Mai 2018 um 09:37 Uhr schrieb Paul Offord 
mailto:paul.off...@advance7.com>>:
> I *think* Windows DLLs may also function as shared libraries.

They do.  One instance in RAM mapped into the virtual address space of any 
process referencing the DLL.

-Original Message-
From: Wireshark-dev 
mailto:wireshark-dev-boun...@wireshark.org>>
 On Behalf Of Guy Harris
Sent: 05 May 2018 19:25
To: Developer support list for Wireshark 
mailto:wireshark-dev@wireshark.org>>
Subject: Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs

On May 5, 2018, at 10:04 AM, Peter Wu 
mailto:pe...@lekensteyn.nl>> wrote:

> Memory usage will probably suck due to exact copies of the process,

On most if not all UN*Xes, the executable image's code and read-only data, and 
libwireshark's/libwiretap's/libwsutil's code and read-only data, should be 
shared between all of the processes.

You won't, however, share the results of reading in configuration files, e.g. 
the new fields added by reading in the RADIUS and DIAMETER dictionaries...

...unless they're read in by the UI process, and handed to the dissector 
processes as (read-only) shared memory.

I *think* Windows DLLs may also function as shared libraries.
___
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Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs

[Michał Łabędzki]

> One last (but important) argument is screen size. A lot of people have big 
> screens now. The tabbed approach for the main window really only makes sense 
> on smaller screens.

Also, I have a big screen, but it is my feature. I really want to
collect windows in one place to speed up work (like "where is my
window?"). If I need I still can Detach tab and move it to another
monitor.

"Dockable windows" is also fine, but support multiple capture files
will be not comfortable (how to do it?). There is a need to open... at
least new window to see packet list, etc. like before. Of course, the
option to dock it on the right of the previous packet list is will
also nice to have.

> I think tabs for the main window is the wrong approach and will alienate a 
> lot of users

What do you mean by "alienate"? There is already the option that makes
users different from another one: Preferences -> Layout. Please do not
try to force users to use only one way.

What is wrong with tabs those are optional?

2018-05-07 10:39 GMT+02:00 Paul Offord :
> A couple of things I’ve noted.  Microsoft Message Analyzer uses tabs in the
> main window but I confess I don’t think I’ve used them to look at multiple
> traces.
>
>
>
> Second point, maybe dockable windows would be better.  We use Telerik for
> Workbench and it provides a typical dockable window mechanism.  This meets
> both needs.  If you dock one window on top of another you get tabs.  Or you
> can undock a window and move it to another monitor.  By the way, I’m not
> promoting Telerik here, just using it for illustration.
>
>
>
> Best regards…Paul
>
>
>
> From: Wireshark-dev  On Behalf Of
> Roland Knall
> Sent: 07 May 2018 09:17
>
>
> To: Developer support list for Wireshark 
> Subject: Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs
>
>
>
> I think before we submit this patch, we should agree on a general UI concept
> going forward.
>
>
>
> TL;DR: I think tabs for the main window is the wrong approach and will
> alienate a lot of users
>
>
>
>
>
> There are basically three main uses for tabs in an application (besides from
> preference dialogs).
>
>
>
> The first approach is your basic webbrowser, who displays multiple webpages
> in each individual tab. This actually is something Apple tries to enforce
> anyway and others do as well, but always the content of the tabs are
> similar. It is always a webcontent or a textdocument,  They can be
> opened and closed individually and do not care about or influence each
> other. The Wireshark equivalent would be a capture file. IO Graph and the
> packet list do influence each other deeply, as does the packet list and
> every other dialog.
>
>
>
> Now in the second approach (e.g. iTunes or music player application), you
> may have tabs which present you the same data in a different method  (Album,
> Artists, Playlist, ...). In these cases the tabs are always present, their
> view can be toggled, but in reality they are always there. Equivalent in
> Wireshark would be, that all dialogs are generated on capture file load and
> be always there, but hidden.
>
>
>
> If tabs are not used for the main window, the usually are being used as
> utility tabs (see your favorite IDE e.g. QtCreator, Visual Studio, Eclipse,
> ...). This would be the third approach. They present additional information
> to the main document, a search possibility, graphical representation, 
>
>
>
> Wireshark's dialogs do not present different, independant data (first
> approach), but in the most cases an aggregated view (third approach) and
> sometimes an alternative view (second approach). Therefore, making them tabs
> to the main window is contradictory (as stated above). Users would have a
> program which operates very different to other programs they use daily.
> Making dialogs tabs to a utility window (byte view, packet detail) seems
> more to be the natural method. And then they can be dockable as well.
>
>
>
> One last (but important) argument is screen size. A lot of people have big
> screens now. The tabbed approach for the main window really only makes sense
> on smaller screens. On a big screen tabs do not lead to a better utilisation
> of the space, making the work with a lot of tabs more cumbersome.
>
>
>
> regards
>
> Roland
>
>
>
> Am So., 6. Mai 2018 um 09:37 Uhr schrieb Paul Offord
> :
>
>> I *think* Windows DLLs may also function as shared libraries.
>
> They do.  One instance in RAM mapped into the virtual address space of any
> process referencing the DLL.
>
> -Original Message-
> From: Wireshark-dev  On Behalf Of Guy
> Harris
> Sent: 05 May 2018 19:25
> To: Developer support list for Wireshark 
> Subject: Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs
>
> On May 5, 2018, at 10:04 AM, Peter Wu  wrote:
>
>> Memory usage will probably suck due to exact copies of the process,
>
> On most if not all UN*Xes, the executable image's code and read-only data,
> and libwireshark's/libwiretap's/libwsutil's code and 

Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs

[Roland Knall]

I am not trying to force users to use anything. The whole idea with
dockable windows started from a point to be able to use the exact same
layout functionality as today, but with a more comfortable configuration.

And I do not think you can compare the layout preferences to your idea.
Your idea goes way beyond that. The whole concept of Wireshark is based
around a single capture file. And as you already mentioned, this is an
issue also for the dockable windows. But it is not solved by the graphical
representation, much rather by the representation in memory.

The idea to collect windows at one central point is a good one, but I do
not think that adopting a new UI concept which is fundamentally different
from every other, is not a good idea.

The optionality is also a problem for me. If we have a feature with such a
big impact, we have to implement it in such a way, that it does not "hide"
any open issues. For instance, certain dialogs do not have their own data
model, but opt to use the one from the currently open capture file. Some
others use their own. Now if I close the capture file, what should be the
state of these dialogs? Some will be closed, some might stay open but
present an empty view, some others may present their data but not indicate
which file it is for, 

As I mentioned before, I really like the idea of using tabs for
information. But not for the mainwindow, if the graphical representation of
the information is different in such a fundamental way. I applaud every
effort to implement multiple capture files, but I really think this goes
into the wrong direction. But I am open to be convinced otherwise.

kind regards,
Roland


Am Mo., 7. Mai 2018 um 12:24 Uhr schrieb Michał Łabędzki <
michal.tomasz.labed...@gmail.com>:

> > One last (but important) argument is screen size. A lot of people have
> big screens now. The tabbed approach for the main window really only makes
> sense on smaller screens.
>
> Also, I have a big screen, but it is my feature. I really want to
> collect windows in one place to speed up work (like "where is my
> window?"). If I need I still can Detach tab and move it to another
> monitor.
>
> "Dockable windows" is also fine, but support multiple capture files
> will be not comfortable (how to do it?). There is a need to open... at
> least new window to see packet list, etc. like before. Of course, the
> option to dock it on the right of the previous packet list is will
> also nice to have.
>
> > I think tabs for the main window is the wrong approach and will alienate
> a lot of users
>
> What do you mean by "alienate"? There is already the option that makes
> users different from another one: Preferences -> Layout. Please do not
> try to force users to use only one way.
>
> What is wrong with tabs those are optional?
>
> 2018-05-07 10:39 GMT+02:00 Paul Offord :
> > A couple of things I’ve noted.  Microsoft Message Analyzer uses tabs in
> the
> > main window but I confess I don’t think I’ve used them to look at
> multiple
> > traces.
> >
> >
> >
> > Second point, maybe dockable windows would be better.  We use Telerik for
> > Workbench and it provides a typical dockable window mechanism.  This
> meets
> > both needs.  If you dock one window on top of another you get tabs.  Or
> you
> > can undock a window and move it to another monitor.  By the way, I’m not
> > promoting Telerik here, just using it for illustration.
> >
> >
> >
> > Best regards…Paul
> >
> >
> >
> > From: Wireshark-dev  On Behalf Of
> > Roland Knall
> > Sent: 07 May 2018 09:17
> >
> >
> > To: Developer support list for Wireshark 
> > Subject: Re: [Wireshark-dev] Feature: option to open windows as tabs
> >
> >
> >
> > I think before we submit this patch, we should agree on a general UI
> concept
> > going forward.
> >
> >
> >
> > TL;DR: I think tabs for the main window is the wrong approach and will
> > alienate a lot of users
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > There are basically three main uses for tabs in an application (besides
> from
> > preference dialogs).
> >
> >
> >
> > The first approach is your basic webbrowser, who displays multiple
> webpages
> > in each individual tab. This actually is something Apple tries to enforce
> > anyway and others do as well, but always the content of the tabs are
> > similar. It is always a webcontent or a textdocument,  They can be
> > opened and closed individually and do not care about or influence each
> > other. The Wireshark equivalent would be a capture file. IO Graph and the
> > packet list do influence each other deeply, as does the packet list and
> > every other dialog.
> >
> >
> >
> > Now in the second approach (e.g. iTunes or music player application), you
> > may have tabs which present you the same data in a different method
> (Album,
> > Artists, Playlist, ...). In these cases the tabs are always present,
> their
> > view can be toggled, but in reality they are always there. Equivalent in
> > Wireshark would be, that all dialogs are generated on capture fi