Re: Gimp monstrosity

[Juan R. de Silva]

On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:21:19 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote:

> On 11/17/18 7:24 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
>> That is, indeed, hideous.
>> 
>> Some out of work Gnome 3 UI Expert must've found a home at the Gimp
>> project.
> 
> I think we've all figured out by now that you don't like Gnome.  This

As far as I can see from his comment he only disaprove some GNOME UI 
decisions not GNOME entirely.

> kind of comment is not welcome on the mailing list.

Well, IMHO his is entitled to have his opinion. His comment is on topic 
and in the right list. 

Your statement instead is quite a police like rebuke and to my taste is 
not welcome either.

:-)
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Re: Gimp

[Rex Dieter]

Juan R. de Silva wrote:

> On Sat, 17 Nov 2018 22:21:19 -0800, Samuel Sieb wrote:
> 
>> On 11/17/18 7:24 PM, Sam Varshavchik wrote:
>>> That is, indeed, hideous.
>>> 
>>> Some out of work Gnome 3 UI Expert must've found a home at the Gimp
>>> project.
>> 
>> I think we've all figured out by now that you don't like Gnome.  This
> 
> As far as I can see from his comment he only disaprove some GNOME UI
> decisions not GNOME entirely.
> 
>> kind of comment is not welcome on the mailing list.
> 
> Well, IMHO his is entitled to have his opinion. His comment is on topic
> and in the right list.
> 
> Your statement instead is quite a police like rebuke and to my taste is
> not welcome either.

I support the response that comments of that nature are not welcome.  It 
went beyond just criticizing a specific idea, but a whole class of people 
and/or their backgrounds.  That is not up for debate.

https://docs.fedoraproject.org/en-US/project/code-of-conduct/index.html

Such discourse is clearly neither considerate or respectful, and goes 
against both the letter and spirit of the fedora code of conduct.

-- Rex
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Re: Gimp

[Juan R. de Silva]

>> As far as I can see from his comment he only disaprove some GNOME UI
>> decisions not GNOME entirely.
>> 
>>> kind of comment is not welcome on the mailing list.
>> 
>> Well, IMHO his is entitled to have his opinion. His comment is on topic
>> and in the right list.
>> 
>> Your statement instead is quite a police like rebuke and to my taste is
>> not welcome either.
> 
> I support the response that comments of that nature are not welcome.  It
> went beyond just criticizing a specific idea, but a whole class of
> people and/or their backgrounds.  That is not up for debate.

Well, he did used irony or sarcasm, if your prefer. However the meaning 
of it in the context of conversation was clearly directed to some 
DECISIONS made by whoever was responcible for them. But he defenitely did 
not touch any personalities in particular. 

And I cannot see in his comment anything about anybody's in particular 
background

> Such discourse is clearly neither considerate or respectful, and goes
> against both the letter and spirit of the fedora code of conduct.

Irony and sarcasm are rarely considered "considerate or respectful" by 
those aimed. However, both irony and sarcasm belong to a civilized 
disputes toolset and are used in many public discussions on any level.

IMHO, some people should stop being too vigilant. I'm not really sure 
GNOME needs souch tough protection? Healthy critisism never hurts and 
always helpfull. Without it any project is liable to lose track and go to 
a wrong direction until ended up in a ditch.

Let people use humor, irony, sarcasm, and whatever else (except explicit 
insults certainly) and be thankfull they do.  By speaking it out their 
way they help you more than you think.
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Re: Gimp

[Frau Silvia Sánchez]

Hello Juan et all,

I don't know why do you think that comment was  "police-like"  or why do
you think that been disrespectful to Gnome designers is correct.
I don't like Gnome Shell, but I simply opt not to use it. I don't need to
be sarcastic and make comments on the people who work for the project. That
their approach doesn't fit my ways doesn't mean they're wrong or they
deserve sarcastic or diminishing comments.
Also, sarcasm and irony lead too easily to arguments and misunderstandings,
so it should be avoided. Particularly in written means such as email and
messaging.
My 2 cents.

Kind regards,
Silvia
FAS:  Lailah




On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 16:43, Juan R. de Silva 
wrote:

> >> As far as I can see from his comment he only disaprove some GNOME UI
> >> decisions not GNOME entirely.
> >>
> >>> kind of comment is not welcome on the mailing list.
> >>
> >> Well, IMHO his is entitled to have his opinion. His comment is on topic
> >> and in the right list.
> >>
> >> Your statement instead is quite a police like rebuke and to my taste is
> >> not welcome either.
> >
> > I support the response that comments of that nature are not welcome.  It
> > went beyond just criticizing a specific idea, but a whole class of
> > people and/or their backgrounds.  That is not up for debate.
>
> Well, he did used irony or sarcasm, if your prefer. However the meaning
> of it in the context of conversation was clearly directed to some
> DECISIONS made by whoever was responcible for them. But he defenitely did
> not touch any personalities in particular.
>
> And I cannot see in his comment anything about anybody's in particular
> background
>
> > Such discourse is clearly neither considerate or respectful, and goes
> > against both the letter and spirit of the fedora code of conduct.
>
> Irony and sarcasm are rarely considered "considerate or respectful" by
> those aimed. However, both irony and sarcasm belong to a civilized
> disputes toolset and are used in many public discussions on any level.
>
> IMHO, some people should stop being too vigilant. I'm not really sure
> GNOME needs souch tough protection? Healthy critisism never hurts and
> always helpfull. Without it any project is liable to lose track and go to
> a wrong direction until ended up in a ditch.
>
> Let people use humor, irony, sarcasm, and whatever else (except explicit
> insults certainly) and be thankfull they do.  By speaking it out their
> way they help you more than you think.
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Re: Gimp

[Joe Zeff]

On 11/18/2018 10:14 AM, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:
I don't know why do you think that comment was  "police-like"  or why do 
you think that been disrespectful to Gnome designers is correct.


I can't speak for anybody else on the list, but to me, your comment came 
across as very PC.  I think it's safe to say that the only PC that's on 
topic on this list is the Personal Computer.

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Just switched to Fedora 28

[Frank McCormick]

I am back on Fedora after a couple of years away.

One of the first things I did was to install Icewm, and I am a little

surprised at how old the Fedora version if (1.38).

Is there a way to get a newer version  such as 1.43 in the Git repository

without resorting to compiling it myself?


Thanks

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Re: Just switched to Fedora 28

[stan]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 12:55:34 -0500
Frank McCormick  wrote:

> Is there a way to get a newer version  such as 1.43 in the Git
> repository

There is already a bugzilla open requesting that update.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1287762
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Re: Gimp

[Frau Silvia Sánchez]

I don't know what is PC other than Personal Computer


On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 at 18:23, Joe Zeff  wrote:

> On 11/18/2018 10:14 AM, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:
> > I don't know why do you think that comment was  "police-like"  or why do
> > you think that been disrespectful to Gnome designers is correct.
>
> I can't speak for anybody else on the list, but to me, your comment came
> across as very PC.  I think it's safe to say that the only PC that's on
> topic on this list is the Personal Computer.
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Re: Gimp

[stan]

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 15:49:00 + (UTC)
"Juan R. de Silva"  wrote:

> Irony and sarcasm are rarely considered "considerate or respectful"
> by those aimed. However, both irony and sarcasm belong to a civilized 
> disputes toolset and are used in many public discussions on any level.

The internet lends itself to critical comments.  It's easy to post
such comments in an email list, or anywhere else on the web.  Would you
say those kinds of things to the developer's faces?  How likely would
you be to have a constructive conversation if you did?

Those are still people on the other end of that conversation.  How
would you respond if someone discounted *your* work in those terms?

There is a label for the skill of interacting well with other people,
emotional intelligence, and because it is now recognized, it is becoming
a necessary skill for success in organizations.  Recruiters look, and
test, for it.
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Re: Gimp monstrosity

[Tim via users]

Allegedly, on or about 18 November 2018, Juan R. de Silva sent:
> As far as I can see from his comment he only disaprove some GNOME UI 
> decisions not GNOME entirely.

If Gnome doesn't like being critiqued so much, perhaps they should stop
doing things that invite it.  Such as removing user configuration on a
platform where letting the user make the computer do exactly what they
want (Linux) has always been a major drawcard.

-- 
[tim@localhost ~]$ uname -rsvp
Linux 4.16.11-100.fc26.x86_64 #1 SMP Tue May 22 20:02:12 UTC 2018 x86_64

Boilerplate:  All mail to my mailbox is automatically deleted.
There is no point trying to privately email me, I only get to see
the messages posted to the mailing list.

When it comes to electronics, I'm slightly biased.
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Re: Gimp

[Joe Zeff]

On 11/18/2018 12:15 PM, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:

)
I don't know what is PC other than Personal Computer


Here in the USA, it also stands for "Politically Correct." 
(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Political_correctness)

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Re: VPN Interface not Remaining Active With Firewall?

[Stephen Morris]

On 16/11/18 1:12 pm, Tony Nelson wrote:

On 18-11-15 18:00:14, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 11/15/2018 03:17 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

In Linux
case, it expects UTC. In Windows, it expects local time.


I haven't had to deal with this for years, but if memory serves, 
there's a

place where you can tell Linux that the hardware clock is in local time,
not UTC.


man hwclock:

   LOCAL vs UTC
   Keeping the Hardware Clock in a  local  timescale  causes 
inconsistent

   daylight saving time results:

   · If  Linux  is  running during a daylight saving time change, 
the time

 written to the Hardware Clock will be adjusted for the change.

   · If Linux is NOT running during a daylight  saving  time 
change,  the
 time  read  from  the  Hardware  Clock  will  NOT be adjusted 
for the

 change.

   The Hardware Clock on an ISA compatible system keeps only a  
date  and
   time,  it  has  no  concept of timezone nor daylight saving. 
Therefore,
   when hwclock is told that it is in local time, it assumes it is 
in  the
   'correct' local time and makes no adjustments to the time read 
from it.


   Linux  handles daylight saving time changes transparently only 
when the
   Hardware Clock is kept in the UTC timescale. Doing so is made 
easy  for
   system  administrators as hwclock uses local time for its 
output and as

   the argument to the --date option.

   POSIX systems, like Linux, are designed to have the System 
Clock  oper‐
   ate in the UTC timescale. The Hardware Clock's purpose is to 
initialize

   the System Clock, so also keeping it in UTC makes sense.

   Linux does, however, attempt to accommodate the Hardware Clock 
being in
   the local timescale. This is primarily for dual-booting with 
older ver‐
   sions of MS Windows. From Windows 7 on,  the 
RealTimeIsUniversal  reg‐
   istry key is supposed to be working properly so that its 
Hardware Clock

   can be kept in UTC.

From recollection, which may not be completely accurate, the Asrock 
motherboard that I have now is the first motherboard I've had where the 
bios has not offered a setting to set the system clock to GMT/Local, and 
I have always set the system clock to local because Windows, which I 
tri-boot with, used to have issues with the system clock being GMT. 
Having said this, on this motherboard there isn't any option to change 
it, the front screen is showing local time and that time is correct for 
daylight savings time, even though the machine wasn't switched on when 
daylight savings time kicked in.


I also seem to remember that there used to be an option in KDE->System 
Settings to configure whether or not the system clock was running local 
or GMT time, which I can't find now. The only setting I can find is to 
set the timezone and to set the date and time automatically. From memory 
there used to also be an option in KDE->System Setttings to have the 
clock maintained by a Network Time Clock where you could also specify 
the URL to connect to, which I used to have set to an Oceania location, 
but I can't find that anymore either.



regards,

Steve

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Re: VPN Interface not Remaining Active With Firewall?

[Joe Zeff]

On 11/18/2018 02:08 PM, Stephen Morris wrote:
 From recollection, which may not be completely accurate, the Asrock 
motherboard that I have now is the first motherboard I've had where the 
bios has not offered a setting to set the system clock to GMT/Local, and 
I have always set the system clock to local because Windows, which I 
tri-boot with, used to have issues with the system clock being GMT. 
Having said this, on this motherboard there isn't any option to change 
it, the front screen is showing local time and that time is correct for 
daylight savings time, even though the machine wasn't switched on when 
daylight savings time kicked in.


If you think about it, there's no reason for the mobo to know what 
timezone it's in.  All it has to do is keep track of the time, and let 
the OS worry about timezones, DST and other time/date related stuff.

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Re: VPN Interface not Remaining Active With Firewall?

[Stephen Morris]

On 16/11/18 12:17 pm, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 11/15/18 4:54 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 11/16/18 7:37 AM, Rick Stevens wrote:

On 11/15/18 3:00 PM, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 11/15/2018 03:17 PM, Rick Stevens wrote:

In Linux
case, it expects UTC. In Windows, it expects local time.

I haven't had to deal with this for years, but if memory serves, there's
a place where you can tell Linux that the hardware clock is in local
time, not UTC.

Ah, yes, there is. You can select the mode when you install the system,
but the "system-config-date" utility offers a tickbox. By default, it's
ticked and that means "System clock uses UTC".

I also haven't done it in a while. This machine is F28, but started
life as F18 and has been continually updated since then. The same is
true for my other personal systems (they're current F28 or F29 and
started as F20 or earlier). For the last 25 years or so, 95% of the
machines I set up or use are Unix-esque in flavor, so I pretty much
always set up UTC on the hardware clock. Sort of second nature.

Well, I'm just installing an F29 MATE VM and on the TIME&DATE screen there is 
no tick-box
to indicate that the HW clock is or isn't "local".

Additionally, I could find no trace of "system-config-date" in F29.

[root@meimei ~]# dnf whatprovides *bin/system-config-date
Fedora 29 - x86_64 - VirtualBox    2.8 kB/s | 6.9 kB 00:02
Failed to synchronize cache for repo 'virtualbox', ignoring this repo.
Error: No Matches found

And you're right. It appears mine is from(holy kapok!) F24! I told
you these machines have been updated from older versions.

Ok, so you can wait until chronyd syncs, then delete the /etc/adjtime
file and "sudo hwclock -w --utc" to set it to UTC (default unless the
last line of /etc/adjtime is set to "LOCAL").


I've checked my etc/adjtime and it has the last line set to local. I 
also can't see anything obvious in that file to indicate the offset from 
local to GMT so how does hwclock know what offset to use?


Also when I issue the hwclock command, it tells me my timezone is 
GMT+11, which is correct for daylight savings time. Given that I can't 
find any setting in KDE->System Settings any more to tell Fedora to 
allow for daylight savings time, and noting that the hwclock is correct 
for local daylight savings time, nor can I find any settings to specify 
a Network Time Clock any more that would adjust the time accordingly, 
how is my clocks correct for daylight savings time, or is the fact that 
I'm tri-booting with windows causing the clocks to be correct?


I've done a check for system-config-date and it doesn't exist on my F28 
system either, but then I did in the past have to re-install F26 from 
scratch, so that may have removed it.



regards,

Steve



--
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- AIM/Skype: therps2ICQ: 226437340   Yahoo: origrps2 -
--
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-  -- Guy Goden  -
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Re: Network Manager not Retaining Wifi Password

[Stephen Morris]

On 14/11/18 8:14 am, Ed Greshko wrote:

On 11/14/18 5:03 AM, Stephen Morris wrote:

It's possible it is environmental, but if it is how do I identify what is 
causing it
given that this was not always the functionality with nm on my system, and from 
my
perspective it surfaced on a cold boot after putting on system maintenance.

Well, the first thing I would do is to create a new user account and see if 
that account
acts the same as the one you are using now.  That should narrow it down to user 
space or
system wide.

I tried an existing user account that hasn't been used for over 3 years 
and it had the same issue.


I also created a new user and it behaved similarly but slightly 
differently. When I logged in with the new user I made the mistake of 
not changing the default so it logged into Gnome, and when Gnome started 
Networkmanager had a definition for ethernet and my wifi even though 
they had not been explicitly set up, and the wifi definition had the 
correct password for my router as the network was connected.


I logged out of Gnome and logged into KDE, and went into the 
networkmanager wifi definition and deliberately set the wifi password to 
an incorrect entry from the correct entry that the definition had. The 
incorrect entry was not retained and neither was the correct entry 
blanked out like in the original issue, or something was overwriting the 
incorrect entry with the correct one.


Having gotten this issue with the new user account I checked 
kwalletmanager5 on that account and kwalletmanager5 was completely 
empty, as it is if I run kwalletmanager5 under root. I installed 
pam-kwallet after getting the issue, which stopped the prompt for the 
kwallet password when it was being accessed, so I don't know if that is 
impacting what is occurring relative to the correct wifi password being 
retained.



regards,

Steve

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Re: VPN Interface not Remaining Active With Firewall?

[Stephen Morris]

On 19/11/18 8:21 am, Joe Zeff wrote:

On 11/18/2018 02:08 PM, Stephen Morris wrote:
 From recollection, which may not be completely accurate, the Asrock 
motherboard that I have now is the first motherboard I've had where 
the bios has not offered a setting to set the system clock to 
GMT/Local, and I have always set the system clock to local because 
Windows, which I tri-boot with, used to have issues with the system 
clock being GMT. Having said this, on this motherboard there isn't 
any option to change it, the front screen is showing local time and 
that time is correct for daylight savings time, even though the 
machine wasn't switched on when daylight savings time kicked in.


If you think about it, there's no reason for the mobo to know what 
timezone it's in.  All it has to do is keep track of the time, and let 
the OS worry about timezones, DST and other time/date related stuff.


Sure, but if the user is in the United Kingdom where they use GMT, then 
presumably they would run their entire system in GMT, whereas other 
locations may or may not want to, so the motherboard should provide that 
option, and I have had motherboard that do offer the option, and I have 
always set them to local time.


If the time configuration is being set by the OS, and F28 doesn't seem 
to have the options to do that setting, especially for daylight savings 
time, how does daylight savings time get set/unset correctly, or is the 
fact that this F28 system has been upgraded from older Fedora 
distributions that did have the options, and the option to tie the time 
maintenance to a Network Time Clock, that those options have been 
retained but hidden by F28?



regards,

Steve



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Re: Just switched to Fedora 28

[Frank McCormick]

On 2018-11-18 2:14 p.m., stan wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 12:55:34 -0500
Frank McCormick  wrote:


Is there a way to get a newer version  such as 1.43 in the Git
repository

There is already a bugzilla open requesting that update.

https://bugzilla.redhat.com/show_bug.cgi?id=1287762
___


 Thanks

Still feeling my way around the Fedora system again.



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Re: Gimp

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

Short version:

Grow some balls, guys, please!

On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 12:25:10PM -0700, stan wrote:

On Sun, 18 Nov 2018 15:49:00 + (UTC)
"Juan R. de Silva"  wrote:


Irony and sarcasm are rarely considered "considerate or respectful"
by those aimed. However, both irony and sarcasm belong to a civilized
disputes toolset and are used in many public discussions on any level.


The internet lends itself to critical comments.  It's easy to post
such comments in an email list, or anywhere else on the web.  Would you
say those kinds of things to the developer's faces?


It was no ad hominem sarcasm. It was a general sarcastic comment about
Gimp/Gnome and the way how coders build it.


How likely would you be to have a constructive conversation if you
did?


See above: It wasn't a conversation with Gimp/Gnome coders - it was a
sarcastic comment about how the OP thinks coders build these programs.

And how about freedom of speech?



Those are still people on the other end of that conversation.  How
would you respond if someone discounted *your* work in those terms?


Maybe that they are right? And that I made mistakes?

If they insulted me in front of a crowd, and right in my face, I swear
I'd give them some appropriate text. And be sure these losers wouldn't
blush just once. And next time these guys would not just think twice,
but ten times more before they even wasted one single thought about
offending me, or not.

But that's exactly the point: Nowadays more and more adult men and
women still seem to need moms and dads around them - or some Rex
Dieters for that matter - to come save them from these guys making
sarcastic comments.



There is a label for the skill of interacting well with other people,
emotional intelligence


We have a brain to understand, or not. And successfully socialized
guys know what is empathy, or not.  The moment emotions guide our
brains, even decisions, we're generally in real deep shit.


and because it is now recognized, it is becoming a necessary skill
for success in organizations.


Do I really need to prove that a majority isn't necessarily right just
because they're the majority? I recommend a history book and see how
majorities can become - literally - deadly wrong.


Recruiters look, and test, for it.


Do they? Making sure grown up men and women, still needing all sorts
of moms and dads around them, are not offended by a few jokes?

Do you really want a world where everyone is too weak to defend
themselves, so we need all kinds of nannies around us for protection?

Regards,
Wolfgang

--
Avoid Boring People - James D. Watson
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Re: Gimp

[Tony Nelson]

On 18-11-18 14:15:05, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:

I don't know what is PC other than Personal Computer


Google "pc acronym" and you will get a reasonable list.  You'd
probably choose Politically Correct from that list as appropriate for
the context.

Look up "pc" on wikipedia and learn much, much more!

--

TonyN.:'   
  '  
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Re: VPN Interface not Remaining Active With Firewall?

[Ed Greshko]

On 11/19/18 5:51 AM, Stephen Morris wrote:
> Sure, but if the user is in the United Kingdom where they use GMT, then 
> presumably they
> would run their entire system in GMT, whereas other locations may or may not 
> want to, so
> the motherboard should provide that option, and I have had motherboard that 
> do offer the
> option, and I have always set them to local time.

People in the "UK" won't use GMT/UTC  as they also "spring forward" and "fall 
back".

The time zone of a system is establish by the symbolic link /etc/localtime.

Their link will be set to "../usr/share/zoneinfo/Europe/London"

>
> If the time configuration is being set by the OS, and F28 doesn't seem to 
> have the
> options to do that setting, especially for daylight savings time, how does 
> daylight
> savings time get set/unset correctly, or is the fact that this F28 system has 
> been
> upgraded from older Fedora distributions that did have the options, and the 
> option to
> tie the time maintenance to a Network Time Clock, that those options have been
> retained but hidden by F28? 

The zoneinfo files have all the info necessary to determine when "daylight" 
time begins
and ends.

-- 
Right:  I dislike the default color scheme
Wron:  What idiot picked the default color scheme
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Re: Gimp

[Wolfgang Pfeiffer]

On Sun, Nov 18, 2018 at 11:02:16PM +0100, Wolfgang Pfeiffer wrote:


How likely would you be to have a constructive conversation if you
did?


See above: It wasn't a conversation with Gimp/Gnome coders - it was a
sarcastic comment about how the OP thinks coders build these programs.


No, obviously wrong: it wasn't the OP's comment ..

Sorry
wolfgang
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Re: VPN Interface not Remaining Active With Firewall?

[Ed Greshko]

On 11/19/18 5:08 AM, Stephen Morris wrote:
>>
> From recollection, which may not be completely accurate, the Asrock 
> motherboard that I
> have now is the first motherboard I've had where the bios has not offered a 
> setting to
> set the system clock to GMT/Local, and I have always set the system clock to 
> local
> because Windows, which I tri-boot with, used to have issues with the system 
> clock being
> GMT. Having said this, on this motherboard there isn't any option to change 
> it, the
> front screen is showing local time and that time is correct for daylight 
> savings time,
> even though the machine wasn't switched on when daylight savings time kicked 
> in.
>
> I also seem to remember that there used to be an option in KDE->System 
> Settings to
> configure whether or not the system clock was running local or GMT time, 
> which I can't
> find now. The only setting I can find is to set the timezone and to set the 
> date and
> time automatically. From memory there used to also be an option in 
> KDE->System Setttings
> to have the clock maintained by a Network Time Clock where you could also 
> specify the
> URL to connect to, which I used to have set to an Oceania location,
> but I can't find that anymore either. 

Think about it for a moment.  Does it make any sense for a motherboard to have 
knowledge
of time zones?

The same motherboard is used all over the world and unless you update the BIOS 
they would
remain static in their knowledge to time zones.

I've pointed out where time zone information is kept.  Those files are provided 
by the
tzdata package.  Here is the start of the "changelog" for that package.

* Mon Nov 12 2018 Patsy Griffin Franklin  - 2018g-1
- Rebase to tzdata-2018g
  Includes changes for tzdata-2018f.
  - Volgograd will change from UTC+03 to UTC+04 on 2018-10-28 at 02:00.
  - Fiji will end DST on 2019-01-13 instead of the 2019-01-20 as
    previously predicted.
  - Most of Chile will end DST on the first Saturday in April at 24:00
    and restart DST on the first Saturday in September at 24:00.
  - Morocco will change from UTC+00/+01 to permanent +01 effective 2018-10-27.

* Sat Jul 14 2018 Fedora Release Engineering  - 
2018e-2
- Rebuilt for https://fedoraproject.org/wiki/Fedora_29_Mass_Rebuild

* Wed May 16 2018 Patsy Franklin  - 2018e-1
- Rebase to tzdata-2018e
  - North Korea changed from UTC+8:30 to UTC+9 on May 5, 2018.
  - In this update, the upstream project now defaults to using
    the "vanguard" data implementation which includes negative DST offsets.


-- 
Fedora Users - The place to go to beat OT dead horses :-) :-)
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Re: Gimp

[Sam Varshavchik]

stan writes:


The internet lends itself to critical comments.  It's easy to post
such comments in an email list, or anywhere else on the web.  Would you
say those kinds of things to the developer's faces?  How likely would
you be to have a constructive conversation if you did?

Those are still people on the other end of that conversation.  How
would you respond if someone discounted *your* work in those terms?


I think I would have enough self-confidence and maturity to laugh it off,  
and ignore it. I do not require someone's approval of my corporeal self, to  
be confident of its worth.


And I've certainly had enough invective thrown at me over the years.  
Fortunately, I'm not a delicate snowflake that's vulnerable to frequent  
triggering and in a perpetual search of a safe space. I'm a big boy. I can  
handle it. Feel free to (try to) flame me out as much as you care. I won't  
mind.


And I feel nothing but pity for those who can't handle it, and get wound up  
over mere words. Especially over some words not even directed at them, but  
at some abstract individual. I guess someone appointed them to be some kind  
of sensitivity police, and they get some measure of self-satisfaction out of  
performing their duties.


Well, whatever floats their boat.



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Re: Gimp

[William Oliver]

The bottom line is that if someone desperately wants to be offended,
they will find a way.  Conversely, if someone doesn't want to be
offended, it's almost impossible to offend them.

This seems to be a mysterious secret to a lot of people.  Many years
ago, I realized that being "offended" was completely up to me.  I made
the conscious decision not be be offended by anything anybody said to
or about me, unless it served some particular tactical purpose.  It was
amazingly liberating.

Choosing to be offended is exactly that -- a choice.  If one chooses to
be offended, then one is offended.  And there is nothing anybody else
can do about it.  Since it's a choice, and since the choice is based on
individual desires and motivations, there's no real value in debating
whether or not something is somehow "inherently" offensive by some
nonexistent objective standard.  Such a standard does not actually
exist.  Those who try to impose such as standard are simply trying to
impose their particular desires.

billo


On Sun, 2018-11-18 at 10:32 -0700, Joe Zeff wrote:
> On 11/18/2018 10:14 AM, Frau Silvia Sánchez wrote:
> > I don't know why do you think that comment was  "police-like"  or
> > why do 
> > you think that been disrespectful to Gnome designers is correct.
> 
> I can't speak for anybody else on the list, but to me, your comment
> came 
> across as very PC.  I think it's safe to say that the only PC that's
> on 
> topic on this list is the Personal Computer.
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Re: Gimp

[Sam Varshavchik]

William Oliver writes:


The bottom line is that if someone desperately wants to be offended,
they will find a way.  Conversely, if someone doesn't want to be
offended, it's almost impossible to offend them.

This seems to be a mysterious secret to a lot of people.  Many years
ago, I realized that being "offended" was completely up to me.  I made
the conscious decision not be be offended by anything anybody said to
or about me, unless it served some particular tactical purpose.  It was
amazingly liberating.


I framed pretty much the same concept but in a different way. Some time ago  
I decided upon the following personal policy, or a principle: from now on my  
permission is required before anyone can offend me. If they did not get a  
personal permission from me to offend me, then they cannot offend me.


From that point on, nobody offended me unless I gave them explicit  

permission to do so, first.




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Re: Network Manager not Retaining Wifi Password

[Samuel Sieb]

On 11/18/18 1:42 PM, Stephen Morris wrote:
I also created a new user and it behaved similarly but slightly 
differently. When I logged in with the new user I made the mistake of 
not changing the default so it logged into Gnome, and when Gnome started 
Networkmanager had a definition for ethernet and my wifi even though 
they had not been explicitly set up, and the wifi definition had the 
correct password for my router as the network was connected.


Ethernet is normally automatic, no configuration required.
By default, NetworkManager stores the password in a keys-* file.  I've 
never tried making a connection not global so I don't know what would 
happen in that case.  I assume that somewhere along the way with your 
KDE tests, the password got stored.  When you used Gnome, it would have 
the password already.


I logged out of Gnome and logged into KDE, and went into the 
networkmanager wifi definition and deliberately set the wifi password to 
an incorrect entry from the correct entry that the definition had. The 
incorrect entry was not retained and neither was the correct entry 
blanked out like in the original issue, or something was overwriting the 
incorrect entry with the correct one.


It would seem that something isn't working quite right between KDE and 
NetworkManager.

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Re: VPN Interface not Remaining Active With Firewall?

[Samuel Sieb]

On 11/18/18 2:24 PM, Ed Greshko wrote:

Right:  I dislike the default color scheme
Wron:  What idiot picked the default color scheme


Thank you!  It's sad that it's necessary to point that out though.
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Re: Gimp

[Rex Dieter]

Juan R. de Silva wrote:

>>> As far as I can see from his comment he only disaprove some GNOME UI
>>> decisions not GNOME entirely.
>>> 
 kind of comment is not welcome on the mailing list.
>>> 
>>> Well, IMHO his is entitled to have his opinion. His comment is on topic
>>> and in the right list.
>>> 
>>> Your statement instead is quite a police like rebuke and to my taste is
>>> not welcome either.
>> 
>> I support the response that comments of that nature are not welcome.  It
>> went beyond just criticizing a specific idea, but a whole class of
>> people and/or their backgrounds.  That is not up for debate.
> 
> Well, he did used irony or sarcasm, if your prefer. However the meaning
> of it in the context of conversation was clearly directed to some
> DECISIONS made by whoever was responcible for them. But he defenitely did
> not touch any personalities in particular.
> 
> And I cannot see in his comment anything about anybody's in particular
> background

They are suggesting all gnome designers are bad in this regard, exactly.  
It's a generalization and is not about a specific idea (to criticize).

>> Such discourse is clearly neither considerate or respectful, and goes
>> against both the letter and spirit of the fedora code of conduct.
> 
> Irony and sarcasm are rarely considered "considerate or respectful" by
...
> IMHO, some people should stop being too vigilant.

It is sarcasm at the expense of other people (again, not about ideas, but 
*people*).  If anyone feels they need to talk like that, please do it 
elsewhere.  Again, it is not welcome here.

-- Rex

-- Rex
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Re: Gimp

[Ed Greshko]

On 11/19/18 11:56 AM, Rex Dieter wrote:
> Again, it is not welcome here.

+1

-- 
Right: I dislike the default color scheme
Wrong: What idiot picked the default color scheme
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Gtk for newest version of Pychess - F29/F28

[Joerg Lechner via users]

Hi,
would like to run the newest version of Pychess on F28/F29.
That`s my result:


Installiert:
  pychess-0.99.3-1.py37.noarch  
Fertig.


[joerg@localhost ~]$ pychess
/usr/local/bin/pychess:17: PyGIWarning: Gtk was imported without specifying a 
version first. Use gi.require_version('Gtk', '3.0') before import to ensure 
that the right version gets loaded.
  from gi.repository import Gtk, Gdk
Failed to create splash screen
ERROR: Could not import modules.
Please try to run pychess as stated in the INSTALL file
[joerg@localhost ~]$ 


I have problems to find and install the "right" version of Gtk for 
pychess-0.99.3-1.py37.noarch.

Did anyone install pychess-0.99.3-1.py37.noarch on F29/F28? 

Kind regards

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