[ubuntu-uk] fglrx driver under 13.04

[Barry Drake]

Hi there   If any of you are using the AMD fglrx driver you might be 
interested in this.  The driver is fine under 12.10 and earlier, but 
under 13.04 Raring the driver works perfectly but gives an annoying 
transparent message in the lower right screen saying 'AMD Unsupported 
Hardware'.  The search engines tell me that this problem exists in every 
Ubuntu upgrade until the driver developers get around to recognising the 
new version of Ubuntu - which can take a while..


Two workarounds are offered.  The one that uses 'sed' simply breaks the 
current version and needs fglrx removing using the commandline, in order 
to rescue the system.  An elegant solution that works for me is to 
simply replace the file 'control' in /etc/ati/ with the one from an 
earlier Ubuntu version (in my case, 12.10).  /etc/ati/ is a symlink - 
the full path on my installation is 
/etc/alternatives/i386-linux-gnu_ati_conf  I have saved a copy of 
'control' as I assume that the annoyance will come back with the next 
kernel upgrade.


Regards,Barry.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] fglrx driver under 13.04

[J Fernyhough]

On 21/02/2013, Barry Drake  wrote:
> Hi there   If any of you are using the AMD fglrx driver you might be
> interested in this.  The driver is fine under 12.10 and earlier, but
> under 13.04 Raring the driver works perfectly but gives an annoying
> transparent message in the lower right screen saying 'AMD Unsupported
> Hardware'.  The search engines tell me that this problem exists in every
> Ubuntu upgrade until the driver developers get around to recognising the
> new version of Ubuntu - which can take a while..
>
> Two workarounds are offered.  The one that uses 'sed' simply breaks the
> current version and needs fglrx removing using the commandline, in order
> to rescue the system.  An elegant solution that works for me is to
> simply replace the file 'control' in /etc/ati/ with the one from an
> earlier Ubuntu version (in my case, 12.10).  /etc/ati/ is a symlink -
> the full path on my installation is
> /etc/alternatives/i386-linux-gnu_ati_conf  I have saved a copy of
> 'control' as I assume that the annoyance will come back with the next
> kernel upgrade.
>

There are two watermarks that generally appear: "Unsupported Hardware"
and "Testing Use Only". You're right, for "Unsupported Hardware" you
need a control file from a driver version that lists your card as
supported (which is a more fully-tested driver version). For "Testing
Use Only" you need an /etc/ati/signature from a signed release.

Bear in mind this isn't affected by a kernel upgrade, only by a new
driver package. It's still worth keeping a copy of the last known good
fglrx .debs locally, though, not only for things like extracting
patches for use with the AMD releases, but as a failsafe!

If you are running beta versions of fglrx on Raring there are a couple
of threads that are worth visiting. One is my own on ubuntuforums.org
("fglrx on raring") which should be up-to-date with the latest
release. The other is the "AMD Bar and Grill" on the Arch forums.
Vi0l0 is particularly good at keeping their packages current.

J

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[ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

I've taken the plunge and upgraded, mostly out of boredom I think. It 
seems rather shakey at the moment. Sound works, then it doesn't. Intel 
video needs much prodding before it's usable and today everything was 
running at half speed for a while.


However what intrigues me is that there are a number of subtle behaviour 
changes and I'm unsure if they are intentional or not. I have a bash 
script sat on my desktop, I double click it and it performs magic that I 
am too lazy to do myself. Now I have upgraded it will load in Gedit if I 
double click. Right clicking reveals no useful options and I have had to 
resort to loading a terminal to launch it. Is this by design? If so, 
what is the logic behind it?


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 14:56, Gareth France  wrote:
> I've taken the plunge and upgraded, mostly out of boredom I think. It seems
> rather shakey at the moment. Sound works, then it doesn't. Intel video needs
> much prodding before it's usable and today everything was running at half
> speed for a while.
>
> However what intrigues me is that there are a number of subtle behaviour
> changes and I'm unsure if they are intentional or not. I have a bash script
> sat on my desktop, I double click it and it performs magic that I am too
> lazy to do myself. Now I have upgraded it will load in Gedit if I double
> click. Right clicking reveals no useful options and I have had to resort to
> loading a terminal to launch it. Is this by design? If so, what is the logic
> behind it?


In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Colin

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Tyler J. Wagner]

On 2013-02-21 15:10, Colin Law wrote:
> In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
> Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
> upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
> the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
> there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Not intending to troll, but Linux Mint's Nemo file manager is like a breath
of old, familiar air. These devs are busy restoring functionality from
Gnome 2's nautilus. I've used it for 2 months now and do not miss Nautilus
at all.

It should be easy to install in stock Ubuntu if you prefer Unity.

Regards,
Tyler

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 15:10, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 14:56, Gareth France  wrote:

I've taken the plunge and upgraded, mostly out of boredom I think. It seems
rather shakey at the moment. Sound works, then it doesn't. Intel video needs
much prodding before it's usable and today everything was running at half
speed for a while.

However what intrigues me is that there are a number of subtle behaviour
changes and I'm unsure if they are intentional or not. I have a bash script
sat on my desktop, I double click it and it performs magic that I am too
lazy to do myself. Now I have upgraded it will load in Gedit if I double
click. Right clicking reveals no useful options and I have had to resort to
loading a terminal to launch it. Is this by design? If so, what is the logic
behind it?


In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Colin

Yes, I read about the dumbing down of Nautilus with mild concern. For 
those who are interested there is only one menu now, named after the 
folder you are browsing, within this are sub menus. Preferences is the 
choice you want. You can choose execute, don't execute (the default) or 
ask each time. Also hidden files is no longer a choose each time you run 
it thing, you set it in much the same way and it stays like that. Oh, 
and be interested, as you'll be here soon too, lol.


This style of choices reminds me far too much of Windows. I liked the 
way hidden files was easily selected when you need it, but didn't hang 
around once you were done.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 15:29, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:

On 2013-02-21 15:10, Colin Law wrote:

In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Not intending to troll, but Linux Mint's Nemo file manager is like a breath
of old, familiar air. These devs are busy restoring functionality from
Gnome 2's nautilus. I've used it for 2 months now and do not miss Nautilus
at all.

It should be easy to install in stock Ubuntu if you prefer Unity.

Regards,
Tyler

You know, I spend so much time telling the world how great Ubuntu is. It 
would probably do me the world of good to look at some of the 
alternatives every once in a while! Trouble is I don't have a spare 
machine to try them on right now.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Simon Greenwood]

On 21 February 2013 15:56, Gareth France  wrote:

> On 21/02/13 15:29, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:
>
>> On 2013-02-21 15:10, Colin Law wrote:
>>
>>> In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
>>> Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
>>> upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
>>> the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
>>> there or may have moved.  Have a look.
>>>
>> Not intending to troll, but Linux Mint's Nemo file manager is like a
>> breath
>> of old, familiar air. These devs are busy restoring functionality from
>> Gnome 2's nautilus. I've used it for 2 months now and do not miss Nautilus
>> at all.
>>
>> It should be easy to install in stock Ubuntu if you prefer Unity.
>>
>> Regards,
>> Tyler
>>
>>  You know, I spend so much time telling the world how great Ubuntu is. It
> would probably do me the world of good to look at some of the alternatives
> every once in a while! Trouble is I don't have a spare machine to try them
> on right now.
>
> That's where VirtualBox comes in handy (yes, KVM is open source and the
supported virtualisation solution but it doesn't work that well with
desktops in my experience).

s/

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 16:00, Simon Greenwood wrote:




On 21 February 2013 15:56, Gareth France > wrote:


On 21/02/13 15:29, Tyler J. Wagner wrote:

On 2013-02-21 15:10, Colin Law wrote:

In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit >
Preferences >
Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring
includes a major
upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful
stuff (not
the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may
no longer be
there or may have moved.  Have a look.

Not intending to troll, but Linux Mint's Nemo file manager is
like a breath
of old, familiar air. These devs are busy restoring
functionality from
Gnome 2's nautilus. I've used it for 2 months now and do not
miss Nautilus
at all.

It should be easy to install in stock Ubuntu if you prefer Unity.

Regards,
Tyler

You know, I spend so much time telling the world how great Ubuntu
is. It would probably do me the world of good to look at some of
the alternatives every once in a while! Trouble is I don't have a
spare machine to try them on right now.

That's where VirtualBox comes in handy (yes, KVM is open source and 
the supported virtualisation solution but it doesn't work that well 
with desktops in my experience).


s/

--
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"TBA are particularly glib"


Please see my posts on 'Ubuntu is unusably slow'. My poor pathetic 
laptop can't even handle playing music while I read the OMGUbuntu website!!!
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Paul Sutton]

>> In 12.10 this was controlled via Nautilus, Edit > Preferences >
>> Behaviour > Run Executable Files when opened.  Raring includes a major
>> upgrade to Nautilus and they have removed lots of useful stuff (not
>> the Ubuntu developers, the Nautilus developers) so it may no longer be
>> there or may have moved.  Have a look.
>>
>> Colin


Why,??  dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory,   or
people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as they
can't learn anything,if they want help it makes life very hard for
old school hackers to do anything to help people, 

I know a lot of people moving to debian and other distros which means
that there are then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who
can help,  long term ubuntu will end up suffering.

Paul



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Barry Drake]

On 21/02/13 16:15, Paul Sutton wrote:
Why,?? dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory, or 
people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as 
they can't learn anything, if they want help it makes life very hard 
for old school hackers to do anything to help people, I know a lot of 
people moving to debian and other distros which means that there are 
then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who can help, 
long term ubuntu will end up suffering. Paul 


We're only talking about Nautilus - not Ubuntu.  IMO Nautilus is 
dreadful now.  I'm having to do things like the commandline 'find' to do 
stuff that used to be easily achieved from Nautilus.  I'm sure when I 
reported one of many Nautilus deficiencies as a bug, someone told me 
that this was the reason that an earlier branch form Nautilus had been 
put into 12.10 as a stopgap, and consideration was being given to the 
abolition of Nautilus in 13.04 if the Nautilus developers don't get it 
right!  It's not 'dumbing down' but rather due to sweeping changes in 
whatever widget library Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).



Regards,Barry.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Paul Sutton]

On 21/02/13 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
> On 21/02/13 16:15, Paul Sutton wrote:
>> Why,?? dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory, or
>> people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as
>> they can't learn anything, if they want help it makes life very hard
>> for old school hackers to do anything to help people, I know a lot of
>> people moving to debian and other distros which means that there are
>> then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who can help,
>> long term ubuntu will end up suffering. Paul 
>
> We're only talking about Nautilus - not Ubuntu.  IMO Nautilus is
> dreadful now.  I'm having to do things like the commandline 'find' to
> do stuff that used to be easily achieved from Nautilus.  I'm sure when
> I reported one of many Nautilus deficiencies as a bug, someone told me
> that this was the reason that an earlier branch form Nautilus had been
> put into 12.10 as a stopgap, and consideration was being given to the
> abolition of Nautilus in 13.04 if the Nautilus developers don't get it
> right!  It's not 'dumbing down' but rather due to sweeping changes in
> whatever widget library Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).
>
>
> Regards,Barry.
>

This sounds a good move,  my comment wasn't aimed at ubuntu but if
ubuntu is using a tool that is being dumbed down then this affects
peoples view of Ubuntu,   If nautilus is going in the wrong direction
then we need to look at something else.

remember if we are converting windows or mac users, then to them
everything in Windows is written by Microsoft,  or everything in apple
is written by apple,  where as with ubuntu the development teams are all
over the world working on different projects and ubuntu is like the glue
that holds this together.New users may not realise that nautilus is
written by different team not directly attached to ubuntu developers.

Paul

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] fglrx driver under 13.04

[Barry Drake]

On 21/02/13 11:51, J Fernyhough wrote:
If you are running beta versions of fglrx on Raring there are a couple 
of threads that are worth visiting. One is my own on ubuntuforums.org 
("fglrx on raring") which should be up-to-date with the latest 
release. The other is the "AMD Bar and Grill" on the Arch forums. 
Vi0l0 is particularly good at keeping their packages current. J 


Thanks for all of that.  I've read through the threads with interest - 
especially the ubuntuforums one.  My use of graphics is very moderate, 
so I'm not going to bother with the beta releases.  I'm sure a release 
will be out soon enough.  I will be sticking with Raring though.  I 
always work with two drives - one with the testing version and the other 
with the current release version as a fallback.  So in about May, I 
shall have Raring as a backup to Slimy Slug (or whatever).


Regards,Barry.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Will Tinsdeall]

On 21 February 2013 16:28, Paul Sutton  wrote:

> On 21/02/13 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
> > On 21/02/13 16:15, Paul Sutton wrote:
> >> Why,?? dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory, or
> >> people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as
> >> they can't learn anything, if they want help it makes life very hard
> >> for old school hackers to do anything to help people, I know a lot of
> >> people moving to debian and other distros which means that there are
> >> then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who can help,
> >> long term ubuntu will end up suffering. Paul
> >
> > We're only talking about Nautilus - not Ubuntu.  IMO Nautilus is
> > dreadful now.  I'm having to do things like the commandline 'find' to
> > do stuff that used to be easily achieved from Nautilus.  I'm sure when
> > I reported one of many Nautilus deficiencies as a bug, someone told me
> > that this was the reason that an earlier branch form Nautilus had been
> > put into 12.10 as a stopgap, and consideration was being given to the
> > abolition of Nautilus in 13.04 if the Nautilus developers don't get it
> > right!  It's not 'dumbing down' but rather due to sweeping changes in
> > whatever widget library Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).
> >
> >
> > Regards,Barry.
> >
>
> This sounds a good move,  my comment wasn't aimed at ubuntu but if
> ubuntu is using a tool that is being dumbed down then this affects
> peoples view of Ubuntu,   If nautilus is going in the wrong direction
> then we need to look at something else.
>
> remember if we are converting windows or mac users, then to them
> everything in Windows is written by Microsoft,  or everything in apple
> is written by apple,  where as with ubuntu the development teams are all
> over the world working on different projects and ubuntu is like the glue
> that holds this together.New users may not realise that nautilus is
> written by different team not directly attached to ubuntu developers.
>
> Paul
>
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> https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UKTeam/
>


I'm still seething about Unity. I could see that they wanted to go touch by
the whole design work, but the problem is Gnome Shell is just a better
experience on the Desktop. They've traded desktop usability for touch
devices... What file manager do you think Ubuntu should change to?

Right now I'm having to work out why gnome-shell decided to screw up the
package manager on my upgrade from 12.04 to 12.10 Some strange
dependencies somewhere I think...
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Tyler J. Wagner]

On 2013-02-21 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
> It's not 'dumbing
> down' but rather due to sweeping changes in whatever widget library
> Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).

Nautilus is built on GTK and Gnome. And no, the dumbing down has nothing to
do with the widget library. Nemo, built on the same libraries, works fine
and has all the power features Nautilus used to have. From the look of Nemo
(especially its preference screen), I suspect they just forked Nautilus.

Seriously install it and see:

http://www.webupd8.org/2012/12/how-to-install-nemo-file-manager-in.html

Regards,
Tyler

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work, or has been proved not to work. You know what they call alternative
medicine that’s been proved to work? Medicine."
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Kris Douglas]

On 21 February 2013 17:05, Tyler J. Wagner  wrote:
> Nautilus is built on GTK and Gnome. And no, the dumbing down has nothing to
> do with the widget library. Nemo, built on the same libraries, works fine
> and has all the power features Nautilus used to have. From the look of Nemo
> (especially its preference screen), I suspect they just forked Nautilus.

It is a fork of Nautilus.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 17:05, Tyler J. Wagner  wrote:
> On 2013-02-21 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
>> It's not 'dumbing
>> down' but rather due to sweeping changes in whatever widget library
>> Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT - DUNNO ).
>
> Nautilus is built on GTK and Gnome. And no, the dumbing down has nothing to
> do with the widget library. Nemo, built on the same libraries, works fine
> and has all the power features Nautilus used to have. From the look of Nemo
> (especially its preference screen), I suspect they just forked Nautilus.
>
> Seriously install it and see:
>
> http://www.webupd8.org/2012/12/how-to-install-nemo-file-manager-in.html

Note that it also installs the Cinnamon Desktop.

Colin

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 17:01, Will Tinsdeall wrote:
On 21 February 2013 16:28, Paul Sutton > wrote:


On 21/02/13 16:23, Barry Drake wrote:
> On 21/02/13 16:15, Paul Sutton wrote:
>> Why,?? dumbing down is fine for perhaps home users in theory, or
>> people with no technical ability, and they will stay like that, as
>> they can't learn anything, if they want help it makes life very
hard
>> for old school hackers to do anything to help people, I know a
lot of
>> people moving to debian and other distros which means that
there are
>> then fewer people with excellent technical knowledge who can help,
>> long term ubuntu will end up suffering. Paul
>
> We're only talking about Nautilus - not Ubuntu.  IMO Nautilus is
> dreadful now.  I'm having to do things like the commandline
'find' to
> do stuff that used to be easily achieved from Nautilus.  I'm
sure when
> I reported one of many Nautilus deficiencies as a bug, someone
told me
> that this was the reason that an earlier branch form Nautilus
had been
> put into 12.10 as a stopgap, and consideration was being given
to the
> abolition of Nautilus in 13.04 if the Nautilus developers don't
get it
> right!  It's not 'dumbing down' but rather due to sweeping
changes in
> whatever widget library Nautilus is built from. (GTK - QT -
DUNNO ).
>
>
> Regards,Barry.
>

This sounds a good move,  my comment wasn't aimed at ubuntu but if
ubuntu is using a tool that is being dumbed down then this affects
peoples view of Ubuntu,   If nautilus is going in the wrong direction
then we need to look at something else.

remember if we are converting windows or mac users, then to them
everything in Windows is written by Microsoft,  or everything in apple
is written by apple,  where as with ubuntu the development teams
are all
over the world working on different projects and ubuntu is like
the glue
that holds this together.New users may not realise that
nautilus is
written by different team not directly attached to ubuntu developers.

Paul

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I'm still seething about Unity. I could see that they wanted to go 
touch by the whole design work, but the problem is Gnome Shell is just 
a better experience on the Desktop. They've traded desktop usability 
for touch devices... What file manager do you think Ubuntu should 
change to?


Right now I'm having to work out why gnome-shell decided to screw up 
the package manager on my upgrade from 12.04 to 12.10 Some strange 
dependencies somewhere I think...



That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do, 
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better 
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Barry Drake]

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do, 
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better 
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a 
look.  I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on 
reflection that I realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too 
much!  I find Unity very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and 
everything else feels, well, just old fashioned.


Regards,Barry.

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do, 
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better 
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a 
look.  I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on 
reflection that I realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too 
much!  I find Unity very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and 
everything else feels, well, just old fashioned.


Regards,Barry.

I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against 
me (multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't 
use keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard 
to navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or 
getting used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to 
be a fluid experience that I just get on with and I've actually never 
felt the need to stray from unity, even in it's early days.


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[ubuntu-uk] Changes imposed

[Alex Cockell]

Hi folks

reading the thread on Nautilus being messed up by the Gnome devs... 
someone commented on how MS users may be trading up on usability - if 
they are Windows 7 users - they'd be getting hampered.


What is it that's led to the GNOME developers messing it up for their 
end-users anyway?  Don't they want it widely used in production?



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Changes imposed

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 21:14, Alex Cockell wrote:

Hi folks

reading the thread on Nautilus being messed up by the Gnome devs... 
someone commented on how MS users may be trading up on usability - if 
they are Windows 7 users - they'd be getting hampered.


What is it that's led to the GNOME developers messing it up for their 
end-users anyway?  Don't they want it widely used in production?



The myth that the 'typical' user needs a simplified interface as choices 
and flexibility confuse them I think.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France  wrote:
> On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:
>>
>> On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
>>>
>>> That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
>>> except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
>>> experience. I really don't see the problem with it.
>>
>>
>> Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a look.
>> I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection that I
>> realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find Unity
>> very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels, well,
>> just old fashioned.
>>
>> Regards,Barry.
>>
> I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against me
> (multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
> keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
> navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or getting
> used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a fluid
> experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the need to
> stray from unity, even in it's early days.

The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
example that does not work?

Colin

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:

That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a look.
I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection that I
realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find Unity
very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels, well,
just old fashioned.

Regards,Barry.


I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against me
(multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or getting
used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a fluid
experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the need to
stray from unity, even in it's early days.

The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
example that does not work?

Colin

Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in 
13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I 
never complained about it because I thought that might be the case anyway.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France  wrote:
> On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:
>>
>> On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

 On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
>
> That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
> except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
> experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


 Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a
 look.
 I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection
 that I
 realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find Unity
 very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels,
 well,
 just old fashioned.

 Regards,Barry.

>>> I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against me
>>> (multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
>>> keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
>>> navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or
>>> getting
>>> used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a fluid
>>> experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the need
>>> to
>>> stray from unity, even in it's early days.
>>
>> The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
>> example that does not work?
>>
>> Colin
>>
> Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in
> 13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I
> never complained about it because I thought that might be the case anyway.

If it is specifically LibreOffice that you had the problem with then
there have been problems in 12.10 see [1] and possibly others.
Perhaps LO 4 (or other stuff in Raring) has fixed them.

Colin

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/739184

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 21:35, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:

That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a
look.
I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection
that I
realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find Unity
very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels,
well,
just old fashioned.

Regards,Barry.


I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against me
(multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or
getting
used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a fluid
experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the need
to
stray from unity, even in it's early days.

The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
example that does not work?

Colin


Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in
13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I
never complained about it because I thought that might be the case anyway.

If it is specifically LibreOffice that you had the problem with then
there have been problems in 12.10 see [1] and possibly others.
Perhaps LO 4 (or other stuff in Raring) has fixed them.

Colin

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/739184

I'm sure it was more than just office but I can confirm right now it's 
working in Thunderbird but not if libreoffice in 13.04.


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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 21:37, Gareth France  wrote:
> On 21/02/13 21:35, Colin Law wrote:
>>
>> On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France  wrote:
>>>
>>> On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:

 On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France 
 wrote:
>
> On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:
>>
>> On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:
>>>
>>> That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
>>> except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
>>> experience. I really don't see the problem with it.
>>
>>
>> Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a
>> look.
>> I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection
>> that I
>> realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find
>> Unity
>> very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels,
>> well,
>> just old fashioned.
>>
>> Regards,Barry.
>>
> I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against
> me
> (multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
> keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
> navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or
> getting
> used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a
> fluid
> experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the
> need
> to
> stray from unity, even in it's early days.

 The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
 example that does not work?

 Colin

>>> Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in
>>> 13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I
>>> never complained about it because I thought that might be the case
>>> anyway.
>>
>> If it is specifically LibreOffice that you had the problem with then
>> there have been problems in 12.10 see [1] and possibly others.
>> Perhaps LO 4 (or other stuff in Raring) has fixed them.
>>
>> Colin
>>
>> [1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/739184
>>
> I'm sure it was more than just office but I can confirm right now it's
> working in Thunderbird but not if libreoffice in 13.04.

Not fixed then :(
Are you on LO 4?

Colin

>
>
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Gareth France]

On 21/02/13 21:40, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 21:37, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 21:35, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France  wrote:

On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:

On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France 
wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:

On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:

That's really funny. You've just given the exact same argument I do,
except I'm saying windows are trading usability and unity is a better
experience. I really don't see the problem with it.


Curiously, last week I put Mint on a spare partition just to take a
look.
I found I was not enjoying the experience!  It was only on reflection
that I
realised I was missing the easy Unity experience too much!  I find
Unity
very usable on PC and netbook (no touch) and everything else feels,
well,
just old fashioned.

Regards,Barry.


I can't say I love everything about it. Window switching works against
me
(multiple windows of the same program grouped together) and I can't use
keyboard shortcuts like ALT+F any more. I used to use the keyboard to
navigate menus a lot and I'm finding I'm just not using the HUD or
getting
used to those changes at all. But on the whole I do find it to be a
fluid
experience that I just get on with and I've actually never felt the
need
to
stray from unity, even in it's early days.

The keyboard shortcuts should still work, can you give a specific
example that does not work?

Colin


Correction. They did not work in 12.10 but appear to now be working in
13.04. Possibly a quirk of my install that got fixed with the upgrade. I
never complained about it because I thought that might be the case
anyway.

If it is specifically LibreOffice that you had the problem with then
there have been problems in 12.10 see [1] and possibly others.
Perhaps LO 4 (or other stuff in Raring) has fixed them.

Colin

[1] https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+source/libreoffice/+bug/739184


I'm sure it was more than just office but I can confirm right now it's
working in Thunderbird but not if libreoffice in 13.04.

Not fixed then :(
Are you on LO 4?

Colin



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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[SuperEngineer]

On Thu, 2013-02-21 at 21:43 +, Gareth France wrote:
> On 21/02/13 21:40, Colin Law wrote:
> > On 21 February 2013 21:37, Gareth France 
> wrote:
> >> On 21/02/13 21:35, Colin Law wrote:
> >>> On 21 February 2013 21:21, Gareth France 
> wrote:
>  On 21/02/13 21:19, Colin Law wrote:
> > On 21 February 2013 17:41, Gareth France
> 
> > wrote:
> >> On 21/02/13 17:37, Barry Drake wrote:
> >>> On 21/02/13 17:28, Gareth France wrote:

Anyone thought of just snipping and replying to the relevant part
only... this thread is cheaper than alcohol for confusing the reader ;)

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--
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] 13.04 behaves differently...

[Colin Law]

On 21 February 2013 21:59, SuperEngineer  wrote:
> ...
> Anyone thought of just snipping and replying to the relevant part
> only... this thread is cheaper than alcohol for confusing the reader ;)

Apologies.  Gmail makes one lazy as it automatically collapses the
previous posts.  No excuse I know.

Colin

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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Changes imposed

[Avi Greenbury]

Gareth France wrote:
> On 21/02/13 21:14, Alex Cockell wrote:
> >Hi folks
> >
> >reading the thread on Nautilus being messed up by the Gnome
> >devs... someone commented on how MS users may be trading up on
> >usability - if they are Windows 7 users - they'd be getting
> >hampered.
> >
> >What is it that's led to the GNOME developers messing it up for
> >their end-users anyway?  Don't they want it widely used in
> >production?
> >
> >
> The myth that the 'typical' user needs a simplified interface as
> choices and flexibility confuse them I think.

The thinking is not that choices and flexibility confuse them, it's
that people are likely to get it wrong. Every time I've set out to
'improve' my DE by changing the fonts or sizes of things or whatever
I've ended up regretting it; I am not a good UI designer, and I don't
know what I like to use well enough to be able to actually implement
it. This appears to go for most people.

As far as I'm concerned, if software isn't nice to use out of the box
then it's failed - GUI software needs good designers at least as much
as it needs good developers.

-- 
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Re: [ubuntu-uk] Changes imposed

[Gareth France]

The thinking is not that choices and flexibility confuse them, it's that 
people are likely to get it wrong. Every time I've set out to 'improve' 
my DE by changing the fonts or sizes of things or whatever I've ended up 
regretting it; I am not a good UI designer, and I don't know what I like 
to use well enough to be able to actually implement it. This appears to 
go for most people. As far as I'm concerned, if software isn't nice to 
use out of the box then it's failed - GUI software needs good designers 
at least as much as it needs good developers.
Actually, those are my primary reasons for sticking with Ubuntu, not for 
me but because if I'm going to recommend it to people I should be using 
what I'm suggesting. I want to be very familiar with Linux's gateway for 
new users.


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