Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
In revisions past, Ubuntu's CDs did not have enough space to accommodate aptitude and apt-get. Now that we have moved on to DVDs I feel it would be a worthy investment to include aptitude by default, especially since it is Debian's 'proper' package management tool. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 08:21 AM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: Maybe I was not very explicit - all console applications are "niche" on the Ubuntu (gui) Desktop. And vice versa, gui-desktop applications are nice on the Ubuntu (console) Server. We have aptitude seeded where console is the default interface. On ubuntu-desktop the default interface is unity with preferred package management using: - dash application scope - software updater - software center Depending on the use-case/goal one uses one or combination of above. I don't understand - why don't we just remove apt-get and make users install via the software center? Why not add-apt-repository, scp, top? My suggestion was just to add aptitude because it's the recommended package-management tool from the community that basically makes all the packages possible for this project. So the drawbacks of including aptitude seem to be: 1) It takes up 2 MB of space 2) Dependency resolution might have to actually be tested (instead of making every stupid package just depend on ubuntu-desktop or xorg?). ;) On Ubuntu Desktop we want to discourage usage of command line =) as there is no need for that for non-developers. I see, so an OS for 'everyone' shouldn't even have gnome-terminal installed at all - make people switch to a VT (and why hasn't that been disabled by default? I'd bet my life savings that every user has accidentally hit CTRL+ALT+F1 at least once on their Ubuntu use - now THAT'S an issue to really actively prevent). There are some strange priorities set based on these phobias. Again, I'm not suggesting an arbitrary specialized tool like vim/emacs get included, I'm suggesting the addition of the endorsed CLI package management tool from the Debian project be included. So if the project were to (understandably) want to include only one CLI tool to use, why not aptitude? As stated, it's already officially supported on ubuntu-server, why not include it on ubuntu-desktop and drop apt-get to reduce a package to have to officially support? And who said I was a developer? I'd only be so lucky to be able to claim that title. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 11:57 AM, Oliver Grawert wrote: ranting wont get you anywhere ... That wasn't my intention. aptitude is not the recommended tool in ubuntu and never was (at least in the 9 years i work on ubuntu) ... if it is recommended anywhere that is definitely wrong and this recommendation should be adjusted to apt-get. Please read the previous messages. I did not say in Ubuntu, I said in _Debian_. I'm trying to get it changed in Ubuntu. And are you seriously suggesting that _Ubuntu_ ask Debian to adjust the endorsed management tools? you could as well rant about the fact that we dont include dselect by default ... both are debian tools that arent used in an ubuntu default installation ... I am arguing replacement of apt-get with aptitude, not about including an arbitrary package for the hell of it. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:17 PM, Alexandre Strube wrote: Why? Because aptitude is the successor to apt-get, endorsed by the community that does all the packaging for this OS, is more stable, and has better dependency handling (indeed, promotes better dependency setting). It makes no sense to keep a less feature-rich and complete tool that has long been replaced. Space on the CD was the original reason (along with some canonical employee saying it was 'too complex' for some reason) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:19 PM, Andrew Starr-Bochicchio wrote: This is actually being debated over on debian-devel as we type. So some piece of text from the Debian FAQ that simply hasn't been updated in a long time doesn't trump anything. So the reason for not even considering this as an option is because someone has decided to spark conversation against recommending aptitude after it's been recommended for years? That's not very good logic. Thank you for the thread. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
It is consistent to the dumbing down of our society, which is not necessarily a bad thing. All modern cars are built for "idiots" to use. If these same "idiots" think they know how to use a computer (as they think that they are really drivers) then there is some overall benefit. The prices of computers and the internet are as low as they are because so many otherwise incapacitated users buy them. If Bill Gates hadn't been a complete idiot about software, the machines we get for $300 today may have never come into existence... Personally, I look forward to the day of the return of the 24x80 CRT... but know I am in the minority.. for me the GUI is only something that gets in the way of me being productive. I was not arguing any of these cases - I was simply trying to argue for replacing one tool for a better one. I'm so sorry that I bother to even try - only one person has approached this with any sort of helpfulness with a nice link to an ongoing discussion of the sort - the rest have been assholes. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:40 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: It is in no way a successor to apt. I did _not say_ it was a successor to apt. Forget I ever brought anything up. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:45 PM, Oliver Grawert wrote: Forget it - forget it. One could have said that all of Ubuntu's software depended on apt-get from the get-go. But instead I get a barrage of messages of people just telling me that my thought was stupid. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:54 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: Debian endorsements or discouragements for aptitude are not very relevant for what ubuntu should ship by default on ubuntu desktop. And apt-get is the default upgrade tool in debian. [1] http://www.debian.org/releases/testing/i386/release-notes/ch-upgrading.en.html#upgradingpackages We cannot replace apt-get easily on the Ubuntu Desktop as it's a reverse dependency for software-centre/aptdaemon/software scope. Thus "apt-get" in ubuntu desktop, is merely a by product of being used as a reliable resolver, which good user interface and experiences are build on top. Thank you for a good explanation. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:53 PM, Riccardo Padovani wrote: On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:50 PM, Brett Cornwall wrote: On 04/09/2013 12:40 PM, Scott Kitterman wrote: It is in no way a successor to apt. I did _not say_ it was a successor to apt. Forget I ever brought anything up. On Tue, Apr 9, 2013 at 6:24 PM, Brett Cornwall wrote: Because aptitude is the successor to apt-get Forgive me, I thought someone implied that I was suggesting that aptitude was somehow a replacement to the apt package management system in its entirety -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 12:57 PM, Dmitrijs Ledkovs wrote: It was never meant as a successor. My mistake. "endorsed by the community" - not true. I'm a Debian Developer and Ubuntu Core Dev and I don't endorse either aptitude nor apt-get. Well, I'm going by the goddamn page that's been there for years - forgive me if Debian fucked up their wiki. It clearly says that aptitude is the recommended program. What do you mean by "stable"? It didn't support multi-arch well for a long time, which is a flagship feature for Ubuntu for many releases now. many releases meaning two? It's only been here since 12.04. If anything, it's aptitude which is less feature-rich =) Space on the CD is still a reason for not including duplicate functionality. What CD? You still did not address how to fix the reverse dependencies which rely on apt-get. Because I bowed my head. I understand. I understand. It's not a good idea. It won't work. It won't work. It's not a good idea. I understand. Thank you. Thank you. Get on with your daily lives. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Aptitude installed by default on 13.10?
On 04/09/2013 04:01 PM, Clint Byrum wrote: Who removed your choice? Defaults are simply opinions, not rules. Install your divergent choices, and be happy. I have to really emphasize, especially as I was the topic creator, that I was discussing the possibility of replacing apt-get with aptitude. My reasonings were on false data and misunderstandings of certain inner workings. This is not about adding aptitude back to be side-by-side - though my wording might have been better. Remember that people got really upset when control-alt-backspace was disabled by default. Remember, we all have the option to run what we want - the things that are truly (horribly) locked into our systems are things like the piece of crap that is plymouth. Those are the things that we really have no choice on and that should be fought against. But having all these choices as defaults truly doesn't make any sense. Nothing is stopping someone from apt-get-ting aptitude or synaptic. It makes no sense for most users to use anything but apt-get (it does what most people want and duplication of efforts really does add more testing necessities that could be better spent elsewhere). This has been blown way out of proportion - please ignore the trollish comment of discouraging CLI usage. This was only ever about replacing a default program with another one. And that has been identified as hard-to-do with no real benefits. Life goes on after: sudo apt-get install aptitude vim emacs gnome-shell kubuntu-desktop compizconfig-manager etc etc etc whatever you want. Cheers guys, I didn't mean for this to blow out of proportion so hard. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
