Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Silvan Marco Fin]

Am 08.08.2012 17:01, schrieb John Moser:

Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.


 Which resembles in most cases the starting point of the mouse pointer 
at the beginning of a session.



Where does the pointer end up?


 At the end of a session it ends up where the logout button is located.

 Lets assume for simplicity, that mouse pointer starting position is 
exactly centered on the logout button, without further specifing, where 
this button is to be found on the screen:


 How many distance in screen resolution does a mouse pointer travel to 
the left and to the right during a session? If you summ up you might 
find out, that the overall distance in both directions is exactly the 
same since you have to go back to the logout button, which is about at 
the mouse pointer starting position.


 What was your point again?

 Kind regards,
  Silvan

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Tom H]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:52 PM, John Moser  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:15 PM, Jordon Bedwell  wrote:
>>
>> It has a lot of bearing for people.  Proper usability testing would have
>> pointed that out, and Canonicals decision not to allow the toolbar to be
>> on the right if users wanted is completely ignorant, more ignorant then
>> the joke of a Usability test Canonical did...
>
> And Gnome with the Activities button
>
> And Apple with MacOSX, which Unity mimics.

The default OS X Dock position is at the bottom of the screen and the
Dock can be moved to the left or to the right of the screen. So
Unity's Launcher doesn't quite mimic it. If it did, I'd move the
Launcher to the bottom with auto-hide. As it is, I just look at
switching back and forth between OS X and Unity as a "test/game;" on
OS X "go down for the Dock" and on Unity "go left for the Launcher."

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Tom H]

On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:12 PM, John Moser  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 3:06 PM, Tom H  wrote:
>> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 11:25 AM, Phillip Susi  wrote:
>>> On 8/8/2012 11:01 AM, John Moser wrote:

 Put your mouse pointer in the middle of the screen.

 Put your mouse somewhere you can grab it.

 Now reach out and grab the mouse.

 Where does the pointer end up?
>>>
>>> It ends up in the middle of the screen; if you pick up the mouse off
>>> of the pad, it isn't going to move.
>>
>> AFAIU he means that the momentum of the right hand reaching for the
>> mouse moves the pointer to the top right of the screen - or at least
>> moves the pointer in that direction.
>
> Indeed, and the implication that away and out is the natural
> direction.  Swinging my arm inward and pulling it toward me seems to
> put stress on tendons in the shoulder; when the arm is closer, it
> pushes against the torso; an inward wrist movement seems more
> stressful than an outward one; extending the fingers pushes the mouse
> away (and lowers the hand, straightening the wrist), curling them to
> pull is more awkward but also common (and tilts the hand upward,
> creating a sharp angle at the wrist and increasing stress throughout
> the motion).
>
> Though the fact that the fastest and most natural movement when
> initially grabbing for the mouse seems to be out and away does seem
> significant.

The movement is in the opposite direction for a right-handed user with
a trackpad...

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[John Moser]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 8:25 AM, Tom H  wrote:
> On Wed, Aug 8, 2012 at 1:52 PM, John Moser  wrote:
>> And Apple with MacOSX, which Unity mimics.
>
> The default OS X Dock position is at the bottom of the screen and the
> Dock can be moved to the left or to the right of the screen. So
> Unity's Launcher doesn't quite mimic it. If it did, I'd move the
> Launcher to the bottom with auto-hide. As it is, I just look at
> switching back and forth between OS X and Unity as a "test/game;" on
> OS X "go down for the Dock" and on Unity "go left for the Launcher."
>

You're right, of course.  I actually have no idea what MacOSX looks
like; the last MacOS I used was system 7.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Conscious User]

Em 08-08-2012 12:01, John Moser escreveu:

Why do UI designers insist on designing interfaces for left handed people?


I'm late to the discussion but would like to give my two cents.

There seems to be a fundamental flaw in the main argument of this
thread: it considers what happens when you reach out for the mouse,
but most of the times you don't have to reach out for the mouse:
your hand is already there.

As David Klasinc pointed out, once your hand is already there, you
only make subtle movements, you don't row a boat.

So the point only seems mostly relevant in two situations: when the
person has just arrived on the computer and when the person was
typing. The first case does not seem to be statistically significant.
The second is valid, but prioritizing it seems strange since a very
common argument against Unity and Shell is "ZOMG YOU ARE
FORCING ME TO TYPE AND TYPING IS FOR NERDY GEEKY DORKS
AND NORMAL PEOPLE NEVER TYPE ANYTHING, EVER EVER EVER".

So while I can't give strong physical arguments in favor of left (and
I'd guess that the history behind this choice has more to do with
LTR reading than anything physical), I don't think your arguments
in favor of right are strong, either.


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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Kyrillos Mossad]

Can we really not just making this an option? Instead of arguing against
it? Make controversial stuff like this dynamic. This is exactly what
Android does to keep its masses happy from version to version.

I don't think anyone needs to be forced to deal with something if it
doesn't work for them and hinders productivity.

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 9:37 AM, Conscious User wrote:

>
> Em 08-08-2012 12:01, John Moser escreveu:
>
>  Why do UI designers insist on designing interfaces for left handed people?
>>
>
> I'm late to the discussion but would like to give my two cents.
>
> There seems to be a fundamental flaw in the main argument of this
> thread: it considers what happens when you reach out for the mouse,
> but most of the times you don't have to reach out for the mouse:
> your hand is already there.
>
> As David Klasinc pointed out, once your hand is already there, you
> only make subtle movements, you don't row a boat.
>
> So the point only seems mostly relevant in two situations: when the
> person has just arrived on the computer and when the person was
> typing. The first case does not seem to be statistically significant.
> The second is valid, but prioritizing it seems strange since a very
> common argument against Unity and Shell is "ZOMG YOU ARE
> FORCING ME TO TYPE AND TYPING IS FOR NERDY GEEKY DORKS
> AND NORMAL PEOPLE NEVER TYPE ANYTHING, EVER EVER EVER".
>
> So while I can't give strong physical arguments in favor of left (and
> I'd guess that the history behind this choice has more to do with
> LTR reading than anything physical), I don't think your arguments
> in favor of right are strong, either.
>
>
>
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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Felix Miata]

On 2012/08/09 10:37 (GMT-0300) Conscious User composed:


So the point only seems mostly relevant in two situations: when the
person has just arrived on the computer and when the person was
typing. The first case does not seem to be statistically significant.
The second is valid, but prioritizing it seems strange since a very
common argument against Unity and Shell is "ZOMG YOU ARE
FORCING ME TO TYPE AND TYPING IS FOR NERDY GEEKY DORKS
AND NORMAL PEOPLE NEVER TYPE ANYTHING, EVER EVER EVER".


Dolts make that argument. People shop and bank online, and fill out other web 
forms as well. No small number create email rather than just reading it or 
re-forwarding jokes and pr0n forwarded to themselves. Some even use them for 
business and run LibreOffice to create snail mail, manuscripts and other 
things a mouse cannot create, and various other apps to create such mundane 
things as web content.

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[John Moser]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Felix Miata  wrote:
> On 2012/08/09 10:37 (GMT-0300) Conscious User composed:
>
>
>> So the point only seems mostly relevant in two situations: when the
>> person has just arrived on the computer and when the person was
>> typing. The first case does not seem to be statistically significant.
>> The second is valid, but prioritizing it seems strange since a very
>> common argument against Unity and Shell is "ZOMG YOU ARE
>> FORCING ME TO TYPE AND TYPING IS FOR NERDY GEEKY DORKS
>> AND NORMAL PEOPLE NEVER TYPE ANYTHING, EVER EVER EVER".
>
>
> Dolts make that argument. People shop and bank online, and fill out other
> web forms as well. No small number create email rather than just reading it
> or re-forwarding jokes and pr0n forwarded to themselves. Some even use them
> for business and run LibreOffice to create snail mail, manuscripts and other
> things a mouse cannot create, and various other apps to create such mundane
> things as web content.
>

This is true, most people type, and most people in front of a computer
are dolts.  Honestly when was the last time you met an intelligent
person on the Internet?  Answer me that question.  Uh huh.  You ain't
never seen it, 'cause everybody on the Internet is dumb[1].

Honestly I just find the outward motions easier than the inward
motions.  Inward motions seem to put a lot more physical stress on
joints and tendons.  Then again, if I rest my arm straight out to the
side and bend my elbow at 90 degrees for a starting position, many
mouse movements are much closer to baseline; any other position
(including the positions used at work[2] and at home--where my
computer is on the floor) seems to create difficulties.  So, keyboard
slide-out tray with mouse on the right marginalizes these complaints.

Also for the touch pad guy, those things are FAST going up-right and
down-left!  Thumb or index finger on the pad.  Middle finger on the
pad.  Raise thumb/index finger.  Mouse jumps up-right (if you're right
handed).  They're not multi-touch and so they register this as a fast,
long movement.

[1]http://xkcd.com/386/
[2]http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/6742/img20120809105855.jpg

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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Conscious User]

Em 09-08-2012 11:30, Felix Miata escreveu:
Dolts make that argument. People shop and bank online, and fill out 
other web forms as well. No small number create email rather than just 
reading it or re-forwarding jokes and pr0n forwarded to themselves. 
Some even use them for business and run LibreOffice to create snail 
mail, manuscripts and other things a mouse cannot create, and various 
other apps to create such mundane things as web content.


The important is not really whether people use the keyboard or
not, but rather if

(1) the average user does it frequently enough for the effects
of inertia when returning to the mouse be relevant, like it was
suggested.

(2) when the hands return from the keyboard to the mouse,
they frequently do it to access GUI elements that are usually
on the left in most DEs.

I'm just guessing, but neither seems likely to me.


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Re: Ubuntu-devel-discuss Digest, Vol 69, Issue 9

[Davyd McColl]

On 9 August 2012 17:08, Kyrillos Mossad  wrote:
 > Can we really not just making this an option? Instead of arguing
> againstit?

Finally, the first piece of unbiased, non-inflammatory, useful content on
this entire thread.
Why designers seem to consider it their duty to force everyone to embrace
their
paradigm is beyond me. Set up sane (or your preferable, if you like)
defaults and
let the user decide.
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Re: Are UI developers all left handed?

[Jordon Bedwell]

On 08/09/2012 10:08 AM, Conscious User wrote:
> (2) when the hands return from the keyboard to the mouse,
> they frequently do it to access GUI elements that are usually
> on the left in most DEs.

This could be wishful thinking, the address bar extends across the
screen so you are assuming they always hit the left.  The search bar is
on the right, not the left and in Chrome it's the address bar.  The
close button on Windows (the biggest OS) are on the right, not the left.
 The only time they hit the bottom left or the upper left is when they
don't know a key command (which is rare since the vast majority know the
majors like F5, back and forward and the majors in most any text editor)
or when they need to open up an app, but as you already implied they
repeat the same tasks over and over again so that is still a rare occurance.

It could be just a conincidence but perhaps they chose a left biased
design because the human eye is naturally biased towards the left,
whether you read ltr or rtl, it's built into humans and it's also built
into dogs.  A lot of people don't notice but people tend to look left
before right... actually some people if they pay attention might find
that it's easier to move your eye to the left than the right, no matter
who they are, because again, it's built in. Yeah ergnomically it does
not fit, but visually it does.

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