Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install

[Phill Whiteside]

Hiyas Daniel,

I'd also like to see the simple ability to make (and recommend) a /home
partion rather than ask a n00b to delve into the tender mercies of manual
partitioning. Hopefully, one day the dev team may catch their breath and
incorporate it. :)

Regards,

Phill.

On 26 December 2010 13:20, Daniel Gross  wrote:

> Hello
>
> I just had a really bad experience while working with Ubuntu 10.10,
> which suggested to me another reason for having a separate home folder.
>
> My ext4 boot partition with all my data became inaccessible -- not mountable, 
> not checkable, only
>
> accessible via dd or ddrescue, but the data coming out is very partial (the 
> image i am getting
> claims to be of type ext2, for some reason, so can't be checked either).
>
> I had just started a new virtual machine, and then the hard drive started 
> spinning at "full speed",
>
> with the computer not responding. After a while I felt that the only way out 
> is a hard reset.
>
> Unfortunately, either the spinning out of control, or the hard reset, or 
> both, have
> damaged the ext4 partition in a significant way. Interestingly, a second NTFS 
> partition (with my preinstalled windows xp pro on it)
>
> wasn't affected, and i was able to boot windows xp without problems, but not 
> able to access the
> ext4 partition, also not with a special ext4 file system utility.
>
> After much trial and error i still can not properly access the ext4 
> partition, getting a "drive exclusively in use by
>
> other process or mounted error?".
>
> I happened to have another 320 SATA drive around, which i am not freshly 
> installing with ubuntu 10.10.
> To avoid such problems with the boot partition in the future, I decided to 
> the the following
>
> partitioning scheme.
>
> Ubuntu Boot partition -- 40 GB, ext4
> Primary NTFS partition of size 220 GB, mounted at /windows
> Primary NTFS partition of size 60 GB, not mounted.
>
> My plan is to move my home directory to the 220GB partition.
>
> Like this if the ubuntu ext4 boot partition fails again, i will hopefully be
> able to access all my data from both windows and ubuntu rescue facilities.
>
> So, the reason to move the home directory to a different partition (and file 
> system type), relates to not putting all your files in
>
> one ext4 boot partition basket.
>
> Daniel
>
>
>
>
>
> On Wed, Oct 27, 2010 at 8:01 PM, Daniel Gross  > wrote:
>
> >* Hello,
> *>*
> *>* I have finally taken the plunge and installed the latest Ubuntu instead
> *>* of Windows XP (while still running Windows xp in a VM).
> *
> Congrats :)
>
> >* It would be great if a tool existed that supports moving the home folder
> *>* from the "boot" partition to a "data" partition. Ideally, the tool would
> *>* support creating a data partition by resizing the boot partition, as
> *>* well as recommending a minimum size for the data partition based on the
> *>* size of the home folder.
> *>*
> *>* Ideally, i think, such a setup could already be suggested during the
> *>* Ubuntu installation process. Perhaps, under an "advanced setup" heading
> *>* -- removing the need to move the home partition.
> *>*
> *>* The main benefit for such a setup, is that it allows reinstalling Ubuntu
> *>* without loosing the users data, which would be safely sitting in a
> *>* separate data partition.
> *
> Putting it on a separate partition isn't actually necessary. Currently
> when Ubuntu is directed to install to a partition which previously had
> Ubuntu on it, it reinstalls only what is necessary, leaving things
>
> such as user settings intact. So this is effectively already done,
> just without the necessity for multiple partitions.
>
> >* Also, during (re)installation, Ubuntu could recognize the existence of a
> *>* data partition that includes a home folder, and suggest configuring
> *>* itself accordingly.
> *
> This is an interesting idea. I'm not sure what we currently suggest
> when another Ubuntu is already installed, but a kind of
> reinstall/upgrade option would probably be useful. Again, we'd only
>
> need the one partition for it though.
>
> >* Taking this idea a step further, perhaps its possible to also preserve
> *>* the packages that were installed, so that these remain intact in the
> *>* data partition also. Perhaps a better name for the data partition could
> *>* be "User" partition, which includes all user configured, tailored,
> *>* created data. As opposed to the System partition which includes the base
> *>* OS only, and that can be reinstalled at will.
> *
> Technically, every part of Ubuntu (including the base OS) is
> considered just an installed package, so doing this wouldn't be
> simple. I'm also having trouble seeing the use case for this - most
> people (in my experience) reinstall Ubuntu as a way to clean up cruft
>
> (or apparent cruft - a fresh install often feels faster just by
> placebo effect). Presumably they would want such packages removed,
> el

Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install

[Bruno Girin]

On 26 December 2010 10:55, Phillip Susi  wrote:
> This is what manual partitioning is for.  Also /home can not be on NTFS
> since it does not support ownership and permissions.

Well, yes and no: manual partitioning is for advanced users who know
what they are doing. The fact that it's the only way you can install
Ubuntu with a separate /home partition isn't easy for the average
user, who doesn't know what the benefits of a separate /home are in
the first place. What would help is a simple option such as "Install
Ubuntu on the whole disk using separate partitions for user and
operating system files", which would choose sensible defaults for /,
swap and /home and create the partitions accordingly. A look at other
distros that already do that could help as highlighted in this review
from The Register:
http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/10/11/ubuntu_10_10_review/

Bruno

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Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install

[Evan Huus]

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 9:50 AM, Bruno Girin  wrote:
> On 26 December 2010 10:55, Phillip Susi  wrote:
>> This is what manual partitioning is for.  Also /home can not be on NTFS
>> since it does not support ownership and permissions.
>
> Well, yes and no: manual partitioning is for advanced users who know
> what they are doing. The fact that it's the only way you can install
> Ubuntu with a separate /home partition isn't easy for the average
> user, who doesn't know what the benefits of a separate /home are in
> the first place.

This is an important point. The 'average' user isn't going to be able to take
advantage of a separate home partition, even if the installer does it
automatically for them. Reinstalling while preserving user data is
already possible with a single / partition, and more complicated recovery
operations (such as the one which started this thread) are not going to
occur to someone who doesn't know enough to manually partition in the
first place.

Admittedly, the installer could make it easier for power-users to divide up
their partitions without specifying every detail manually, but I don't think it
would provide any functional benefit, just usability benefit.

Evan

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Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install

[Joao Pinto]

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Evan Huus  wrote:

> This is an important point. The 'average' user isn't going to be able to
> take
> advantage of a separate home partition, even if the installer does it
> automatically for them. Reinstalling while preserving user data is
> already possible with a single / partition, and more complicated recovery
> operations (such as the one which started this thread) are not going to
> occur to someone who doesn't know enough to manually partition in the
> first place.
>
> Admittedly, the installer could make it easier for power-users to divide up
> their partitions without specifying every detail manually, but I don't
> think it
> would provide any functional benefit, just usability benefit.
>
> Evan
>
>
And let's not forget  that for those who don't need/understand what is a
separate home partition, choosing to do so is likely to become a problem in
the future when the partition sizing is found to be incorrect/insufficient.

IMHO for 'regular' users the ability to reinstall without wiping the /home
surpasses most of the benefits of using an isolated partition.

-- 
João Luís Marques Pinto
GetDeb Team Leader
http://www.getdeb.net
http://blog.getdeb.net
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Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install

[Phill Whiteside]

Hi Joao,

the same would apply to the option of encrypting their home area, which is
on the install CD and causes no end of grief on support. They get the option
of that, but not a seperate /home partition? Bearing in mind we are dealing
mostly with Windows users, is the encryption part really needed as a default
question - or only available in advanced?

Regards,
Phill.

On 28 December 2010 15:54, Joao Pinto  wrote:

>
>
> On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 3:07 PM, Evan Huus  wrote:
>
>>  This is an important point. The 'average' user isn't going to be able to
>> take
>> advantage of a separate home partition, even if the installer does it
>> automatically for them. Reinstalling while preserving user data is
>> already possible with a single / partition, and more complicated recovery
>> operations (such as the one which started this thread) are not going to
>> occur to someone who doesn't know enough to manually partition in the
>> first place.
>>
>> Admittedly, the installer could make it easier for power-users to divide
>> up
>> their partitions without specifying every detail manually, but I don't
>> think it
>> would provide any functional benefit, just usability benefit.
>>
>> Evan
>>
>>
> And let's not forget  that for those who don't need/understand what is a
> separate home partition, choosing to do so is likely to become a problem in
> the future when the partition sizing is found to be incorrect/insufficient.
>
> IMHO for 'regular' users the ability to reinstall without wiping the /home
> surpasses most of the benefits of using an isolated partition.
>
> --
> João Luís Marques Pinto
> GetDeb Team Leader
> http://www.getdeb.net
> http://blog.getdeb.net
>
> --
> Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list
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>
>


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Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install

[Joao Pinto]

On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Phill Whiteside  wrote:

> Hi Joao,
>
> the same would apply to the option of encrypting their home area, which is
> on the install CD and causes no end of grief on support. They get the option
> of that, but not a seperate /home partition? Bearing in mind we are dealing
> mostly with Windows users, is the encryption part really needed as a default
> question - or only available in advanced?
>
> Regards,
> Phill.
>
>
Hi Phill,
I don't have data to support this, but a significant part of today's devices
are mobile devices. I truly believe that the risk of keeping unencrypted
data on a mobile device is so high that encryption more than an option
should be a default.
Encryption provides a clear and unarguable benefit for most users. I am not
sure to which support problems are you referring to, unless you are doing
low level file management (advanced user), home encryption is transparent.

I am sorry but I am unable to identify any clear benefit for most users to
keep the data on a different partition.

-- 
João Luís Marques Pinto
GetDeb Team Leader
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http://blog.getdeb.net
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Re: Feature suggestions: optionally placing home folder into separate partition during ubuntu install

[Daniel Gross]

Hello Phill,

I think you can compare the benefit of having user folder on a separate
partition to users having a backup. 

Most of the time a user does not need the backup. But when the
unforeseen event occurs that requires a restore, then those users who
have a backup will clearly benefit. 

Similarly, those users who loose access to the boot partition (such as
due to a hard disk crash) will clearly benefit from having the data on a
separate partition. At last in my case i could have restored a working
system much more easily without data loss.

In the future when bandwidth will increase and off site backup of all
data stored on a, say, 300 GB hard drive become common, then i guess a
separate data partition will lose its necessity. 


thanks,

Daniel




On Tue, 2010-12-28 at 18:11 +, Joao Pinto wrote:
> 
> 
> On Tue, Dec 28, 2010 at 4:23 PM, Phill Whiteside 
> wrote:
> Hi Joao,
> 
> the same would apply to the option of encrypting their home
> area, which is on the install CD and causes no end of grief on
> support. They get the option of that, but not a seperate /home
> partition? Bearing in mind we are dealing mostly with Windows
> users, is the encryption part really needed as a default
> question - or only available in advanced?
> 
> Regards,
> Phill.
> 
>  
> Hi Phill,
> I don't have data to support this, but a significant part of today's
> devices are mobile devices. I truly believe that the risk of keeping
> unencrypted data on a mobile device is so high that encryption more
> than an option should be a default.
> Encryption provides a clear and unarguable benefit for most users. I
> am not sure to which support problems are you referring to, unless you
> are doing low level file management (advanced user), home encryption
> is transparent.
> 
> I am sorry but I am unable to identify any clear benefit for most
> users to keep the data on a different partition.
> 
> -- 
> João Luís Marques Pinto
> GetDeb Team Leader
> http://www.getdeb.net
> http://blog.getdeb.net



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