Re: metashell - User Friendly Shell

[Forest Bond]

Hi,

On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 04:10:58PM +, Fergal Daly wrote:
> On 27/01/2008, Forest Bond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 02:01:56AM +, Fergal Daly wrote:
> > > Seems like you could achieve much the same thing by having command
> > > (let's call it "o" for open so it's nice and short) that checks the
> > > mime-type of it's argument and opens it according to user preferences.
> >
> > This already exists.  It's called "see", "edit", etc...
> >
> > Honestly, a whole shell to get functionality that's been around for how 
> > long...?
> 
> Absolutely.

[...]

> "open" seems to be the obvious choice of name for such a tool but for
> me, it's a symlink to openvt. Is there a good reason for openvt to be
> holding this valuable name or is it just historical. The fact that
> it's a symlink makes me think that someone has already tried to free
> up "open". Maybe that could be completed and a discoverable,
> alternatives-based "open" command could take it's place,

Are you advocating the creation of a program called "open"?

Perhaps I was not clear before.  What you are looking for already exists, and it
is called "see" (or, perhaps more appropriately, "edit").  These tools pull data
from mailcap.

If you want it called "open", how about:

alias open=see

BTW, what's with the huge CC list?  I trimmed it.  I doubt very much that the
entire human race is interested in this discussion.

-Forest
-- 
Forest Bond
http://www.alittletooquiet.net


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Re: Alpha 4 freeze ahead

[Bryan Quigley]

When is Firefox 3 (Beta) going to be in the default hardy install?  We plan
on shipping Firefox 3, so why not include it by default early on to get more
testing?
Thanks,
Bryan

On Jan 25, 2008 11:47 AM, Steve Langasek <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Hello Ubuntu developers,
>
> The expected release date of Hardy Alpha 4 is this coming Thursday,
> January
> 31.
>
> Hardy Alpha 4 will again use a "soft freeze" for main, as described in
> previous announcements[1].  This means that developers are asked to
> refrain
> from uploading packages between Tuesday and Thursday which don't bring us
> closer to releasing the alpha, so that these days can be used for settling
> the archive and fixing any remaining showstoppers.
>
> The list of bugs targeted for alpha-4 can be found in a couple of
> different
> places, according to your tastes:
>
>  https://launchpad.net/ubuntu/+milestone/hardy-alpha-4
>  https://bugs.launchpad.net/ubuntu/+bugs?field.milestone%3Alist=950
>
> This milestone is intended to be used for tracking bugs that must be fixed
> in order for the alpha release to happen.  If you have doubts about
> whether
> a bug should block the alpha, please err on the side of caution by using
> the
> milestone for the bug so that the release team can review it.  Please also
> consider helping with the bugs already listed there if you have the time.
>
> The number of bugs blocking the alpha is expected to be relatively small,
> so
> if you don't have any milestoned bugs assigned to you, please consider
> helping with the list of bugs that are listed as release-critical for
> hardy
> as a whole: .  Again,
> please
> use your best judgement with regard to the alpha freeze when uploading
> fixes
> for these bugs.
>
> Please also help us to get the archive in a consistent state again for the
> alpha, as described on
> .
>
> Finally, if you know of new features in Hardy that you think should be
> highlighted for Alpha 4, let me or another member of the release team know
> so that they can be added to the release notes at
> .
>
> Thanks,
> --
> Steve Langasek
> On behalf of the Ubuntu release team
>
> [1]
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel-announce/2008-January/000363.html
>
> --
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> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-announce
>
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Re: metashell - User Friendly Shell

[Fergal Daly]

On 27/01/2008, Forest Bond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Hi,
>
> On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 04:10:58PM +, Fergal Daly wrote:
> > On 27/01/2008, Forest Bond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> > > On Sun, Jan 27, 2008 at 02:01:56AM +, Fergal Daly wrote:
> > > > Seems like you could achieve much the same thing by having command
> > > > (let's call it "o" for open so it's nice and short) that checks the
> > > > mime-type of it's argument and opens it according to user preferences.
> > >
> > > This already exists.  It's called "see", "edit", etc...
> > >
> > > Honestly, a whole shell to get functionality that's been around for how 
> > > long...?
> >
> > Absolutely.
>
> [...]
>
> > "open" seems to be the obvious choice of name for such a tool but for
> > me, it's a symlink to openvt. Is there a good reason for openvt to be
> > holding this valuable name or is it just historical. The fact that
> > it's a symlink makes me think that someone has already tried to free
> > up "open". Maybe that could be completed and a discoverable,
> > alternatives-based "open" command could take it's place,
>
> Are you advocating the creation of a program called "open"?

No, I said "alternatives-based". That is, using the Debian
alternatives system to provide access to one preferred tool from
amongst many similar tools.

> Perhaps I was not clear before.  What you are looking for already exists, and 
> it
> is called "see" (or, perhaps more appropriately, "edit").  These tools pull 
> data
> from mailcap.

You were perfectly clear, however there is definitely some
miscommunication. In my last mail _I_ mentioned that see reads from
mailcap and now for some reason you are explaining exactly that to me
(it was in the part you snipped).

So let me rephrase my points

1 there are multiple tools which do roughly the same thing - see,
gnome-open and probably k-something-or-other and no unified location
for preferences for these tools

2 multiple tools which do roughly the same thing is no problem

3 multiple locations for the same preferences is a bad thing and while
sometimes necessary, should be avoided where possible

4 if you don't already know the name of the tool, you are unlikely to
be able to find it

5 "open" seems to be the obvious name for such a tool. It was the
first thing I tried, it's what's left when you remove "gnome-" from
"gnome-open", it's the verb that appears under every File menu I've
ever seen. It seems quite discoverable. "edit" is also quite
discoverable however if you're just trying to open something to see
it, you're unlikely to try "edit"

6 open is currently a symlink to /usr/bin/openvt - the fact that it's
a symlink and that "man open" talks about "openvt" not "open" makes me
thing that it's ripe for reclamation.

So I am suggesting that Ubuntu would be improved by reclaiming
/usr/bin/open from the  console-tools package and replacing it with an
alternatives-based link to a file opener, on Ubuntu -gnome-open, on
Kubuntu - k-something etc etc. Ideally they would all have the same
interface but even without that it would be good.

It would also be great to have a central mime-type -> action database.
I think that's part of freedesktop but unless see and edit pay
attention to it, the problem is not fully solved,

F

> If you want it called "open", how about:
>
> alias open=see
>
> BTW, what's with the huge CC list?  I trimmed it.  I doubt very much that the
> entire human race is interested in this discussion.
>
> -Forest
> --
> Forest Bond
> http://www.alittletooquiet.net
>
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Re: metashell - User Friendly Shell

[Forest Bond]

Hi,

On Mon, Jan 28, 2008 at 12:33:55AM +, Fergal Daly wrote:
> On 27/01/2008, Forest Bond <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> Are you advocating the creation of a program called "open"?
> 
> No, I said "alternatives-based". That is, using the Debian
> alternatives system to provide access to one preferred tool from
> amongst many similar tools.

Okay, I follow you now, although I think alternatives is for managing different
binaries that have the same capabilities, not just the same name...

>> Perhaps I was not clear before.  What you are looking for already exists,
>> and it is called "see" (or, perhaps more appropriately, "edit").  These
>> tools pull data from mailcap.
> 
> You were perfectly clear, however there is definitely some
> miscommunication. In my last mail _I_ mentioned that see reads from
> mailcap and now for some reason you are explaining exactly that to me
> (it was in the part you snipped).

Indeed, I misread.  Apologies.

> So let me rephrase my points
> 
> 1 there are multiple tools which do roughly the same thing - see,
> gnome-open and probably k-something-or-other and no unified location
> for preferences for these tools

Right, now I understand; integration has always been a sore spot for open-source
software.  Competition is a good thing, except when its happening on one machine
(especially when that machine happens to be your desktop). :)

> 2 multiple tools which do roughly the same thing is no problem
> 
> 3 multiple locations for the same preferences is a bad thing and while
> sometimes necessary, should be avoided where possible
>
> 4 if you don't already know the name of the tool, you are unlikely to
> be able to find it

Agreed up to this point.

> 5 "open" seems to be the obvious name for such a tool. It was the
> first thing I tried, it's what's left when you remove "gnome-" from
> "gnome-open", it's the verb that appears under every File menu I've
> ever seen. It seems quite discoverable. "edit" is also quite
> discoverable however if you're just trying to open something to see
> it, you're unlikely to try "edit"

Well, these are all arbitrary verbs that make sense from one perspective or
another (and I noticed you even used the verb "see" here).  It seems like one is
as good as any other, and that's why I don't think "open" is self-evidently
better than "see", "edit", etc...

> 6 open is currently a symlink to /usr/bin/openvt - the fact that it's
> a symlink and that "man open" talks about "openvt" not "open" makes me
> thing that it's ripe for reclamation.

I always assumed there was some historical reason for this symlink, but it's
difficult to get a useful search result indicating that.

> So I am suggesting that Ubuntu would be improved by reclaiming
> /usr/bin/open from the  console-tools package and replacing it with an
> alternatives-based link to a file opener, on Ubuntu -gnome-open, on
> Kubuntu - k-something etc etc. Ideally they would all have the same
> interface but even without that it would be good.
> 
> It would also be great to have a central mime-type -> action database.
> I think that's part of freedesktop but unless see and edit pay
> attention to it, the problem is not fully solved,

Here's where I definitely agree.  Other systems have this, to some extent.  It
seems like the desktop-specific systems ought to manage mailcap, doesn't it?  Or
is mailcap too outdated to be practically useful on the desktop?

-Forest
-- 
Forest Bond
http://www.alittletooquiet.net


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