[Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
Onno Benschop wrote: > On 04/12/07 01:28, Christofer C. Bell wrote: > >> I think allowing the developers of the distribution, those who have a >> real stake in the success of the software in its entirety, to decide >> where to focus their efforts is superior to allowing the mob to decide >> what's important. I also think that using straw-man arguments to make >> your point is a mistake. >> > > The end-user has just as much stake in the success of the software in > its entirety as a developer. True, but there's the additional question - is this the appropriate place for that sort of discussion? In other words, sure, the developers need a place to discuss things free from the mob, but the mob also needs to be able to participate and voice their concerns/approval. But which is ubuntu-devel-discuss supposed to be for? According to the list description [1], it does seem to be the appropriate forum for users to get in touch with developers. Though it doesn't appear to be an appropriate place to try and draw attention to bugs on Launchpad. If that's the case, maybe it should be stated more clearly. [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-devel-discuss -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
Blaise Alleyne wrote: > True, but there's the additional question - is this the appropriate > place for that sort of discussion? In other words, sure, the developers > need a place to discuss things free from the mob, but the mob also > needs to be able to participate and voice their concerns/approval. > > But which is ubuntu-devel-discuss supposed to be for? > > According to the list description [1], it does seem to be the appropriate > forum for users to get in touch with developers. Though it doesn't appear > to be an appropriate place to try and draw attention to bugs on Launchpad. > If that's the case, maybe it should be stated more clearly. > > [1] https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/Ubuntu-devel-discuss > > According to [2], the point of contact for users to get in touch with developers is ubuntu-devel-discuss. For discussions between developers, away from the mob, there is [EMAIL PROTECTED] That being said, there are a number of developers who choose not to read this list, for various reasons. Hobbsee [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelModeration -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Kickseed, Kickstart, Preseed
On Wed, Dec 05, 2007 at 12:30:23PM +, Matt Zimmerman wrote: > On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 08:43:34PM -0800, MJang wrote: > > Wondering where Ubuntu is going w/r/t automated installations. I see > > bits on Kickseed, but nothing in Gutsy. I see per > > https://launchpad.net/kickseed/ that it was in Feisty. kickseed has been in Ubuntu since 5.04 and continues to be there. You're being confused by Launchpad's odd display of project<->distribution packaging links (https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/109886). > > Perhaps the focus is on Kickstart or Preseed? > > Both are supported, though Kickstart/Kickseed is a simpler way to get > started and is recommended for most use cases. In case there is confusion, "kickseed" is simply the name of the installer component that implements Kickstart in Ubuntu by means of translating it into preseeding on the fly. It's not a separate automatic installation method. Feel free to ask specific questions about Kickstart or preseeding on [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: GParted installed by default?
On Mon, Dec 03, 2007 at 10:26:35PM +0100, Jan Claeys wrote: > Op maandag 03-12-2007 om 15:57 uur [tijdzone +0100], schreef Jonas > Jørgensen: > > I would like to ask whether it has been considered to make GParted > > part of the default desktop install, and if so what the reasons were > > for not including it. I would consider partition editing a basic > > feature that should be provided by the operating system and not as an > > add-on program. The fact that the menu entry installs into > > System->Administration rather than the Applications menu proves this > > point, I think. > > GParted is still installed on the live-CD, and was installed on hard > disk by default in the past. I don't believe this latter statement is true, except perhaps by a temporary bug in some milestone CD images [1]. An exhaustive search of the germinate output for all previous releases states that it has only ever been installed on the live CD, and not intentionally copied to the hard disk. [1] At one point in the history of the live CD installer, it did not remove those packages that form part of the installer itself from the installed system. I fixed this in version 0.99.21 on 2 March 2006. -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Hardy Alpha 1 released
On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 11:25:35AM -0600, Conrad Knauer wrote: > On Dec 3, 2007 7:34 AM, Ped <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > From forum post I learned the sagem modem *did* work in 5.xx ubuntu > > (probably 2.4 kernel with eagle-usb driver) right after install, but when I > > did install 6.10 first time on my PC, it took me 5 days to connect to > > internet finally. The reason is probably 2.6 kernel no more working with old > > eagle-usb (so far perfectly understandable), and while the 6.10 (7.04 and > > 7.10 too) does contain newer ueagle-usb driver, it's not functional! > > FYI, Ubuntu has always used a 2.6 kernel; note > http://distrowatch.com/table.php?distribution=ubuntu For the historians: we actually originally planned to offer 2.4 as an extra for heavy-duty server users, and Ubuntu 4.10 had 2.4 kernels in universe. (At some point before release - possibly before we went public, I'm not certain - they were even in main.) See e.g.: https://lists.ubuntu.com/archives/ubuntu-devel/2004-October/000419.html We never supported installation with 2.4, though, and we dropped it entirely in Ubuntu 5.04. Cheers, -- Colin Watson [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Wed, 2007-12-05 at 22:13 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > For those of us who are volunteers (most of us), the compromise is > someone has to convince me it's worth my time to bother. So I'd say > the other way around. The users who want volunteers to actually do > free work for them need to be convincing why I should be bothered > (hint: threatening to switch back to Windows doesn't motivate me at > all). If you need motivation from external sources, then maybe you are misdirecting your efforts. I am not trying to be mean here, but I use and advocate Linux for many reasons. Nobody has to motivate me to do so. I do so because I believe in the platform, and I want it to succeed. I want it to succeed for selfish as well as altruistic reasons. Many unpaid hours are spent helping someone get started, not because I need to be convinced to do so. I do so because I want Ubuntu to succeed, I want Linux to succeed. And I am not alone. Many of the local Colorado Local Group, are looking for ways to provide help desks to noobs, to get more CDs out, or even get cards out pointing the uninitiated to online resources. None of them are paid either. Nor do any of them need to be convinced to do so. They do so for the same reason I do... Because it is what is needed to be done. There seems to be this growing trend in the Ubuntu community lately, and I am pretty sure that it is an all bad thing. The developers, not all but a growing number, seem to think Ubuntu is their baby. The sweat of their brow, and therefore, only successful because of what they do. While I will be the first to say that these voices are still the great minority, they are getting louder. And diminish the fantastic work done by so many. There are many ways to contribute to a project such as Ubuntu. I have offered programming skills, and was treated quite rudely buy certain members of the programming community. They were extremely territorial and condescending towards my efforts. I have since decided to focus my efforts elsewhere. The comments above are exactly the attitude we need to guard against. In my current day job, I design state of the art hand-held computerized devices. Because of my advocacy here, fewer and fewer of those machines are being considered for Windows Mobile. Because of my efforts here, Windows Mobile is no longer mentioned when new projects come up. That takes my faith in the project, and the developers ability to deliver that project. Without the developers, my faith is misplaced. Without my advocacy, the developers efforts are purely academic. I am no more, or no less important than the developer, and I expect to be treated with the same respect. Not looked down upon so some developer can find motivation. In addition to my day job, I am getting a business off the ground. This business is designed to bring real, solid, Linux based networking solutions to the small and medium-small based business. A market segment that Linux has not had much success with in the past, and Microsoft is pandering to. Bringing Linux to a brand new market segment is not easy. However, I think by doing so, I can build a successful business, allow small businesses to better compete, and advance the Linux and Ubuntu cause. But I do not degrade the efforts of others to justify why I do this. Eau contraire mon frer, I praise them. For if it was not for all that they do, I could not concentrate on resolving the businesses issues. I know that not everybody on this board is American, but one thing that every American child learns in history class is in regards to the American Civil War. The north finally prevailed with a tactic of divide and conquer. We learn the slogan "United we stand, divided we fall" quoted by Thomas Jefferson (attributed as far back as Aesop). And Abraham Lincoln's paraphrase of that statement "A house divided against itself cannot stand" (one of the great speeches of all time). Ubuntu is strong when we all listen to each other, give each other respect, and stop trying to claim that my problems are more important than your problems. EVERYONE, end user, advocate, consultant, developer, or even the businessperson that uses Linux for his/her operating system of choice, is in this together. Or else, we can tear each other apart. It is time to come together, shut our mouths, and listen to the other sides. It is time to do this so that all of our efforts can be maximized, and focused on the common good. It time to stop using the word me (also meant in the metamorphic sense such as end user, or developer) and start using the word us. Thats just my $0.02 -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Thursday 06 December 2007 11:36, Kevin Fries wrote: > On Wed, 2007-12-05 at 22:13 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > For those of us who are volunteers (most of us), the compromise is > > someone has to convince me it's worth my time to bother. So I'd say > > the other way around. The users who want volunteers to actually do > > free work for them need to be convincing why I should be bothered > > (hint: threatening to switch back to Windows doesn't motivate me at > > all). > > If you need motivation from external sources, then maybe you are > misdirecting your efforts. I am not trying to be mean here, but I use > and advocate Linux for many reasons. Nobody has to motivate me to do > so. I do so because I believe in the platform, and I want it to > succeed. I want it to succeed for selfish as well as altruistic > reasons. Many unpaid hours are spent helping someone get started, not > because I need to be convinced to do so. I do so because I want Ubuntu > to succeed, I want Linux to succeed. And I am not alone. Many of the > local Colorado Local Group, are looking for ways to provide help desks > to noobs, to get more CDs out, or even get cards out pointing the > uninitiated to online resources. None of them are paid either. Nor do > any of them need to be convinced to do so. They do so for the same > reason I do... Because it is what is needed to be done. > > There seems to be this growing trend in the Ubuntu community lately, and > I am pretty sure that it is an all bad thing. The developers, not all > but a growing number, seem to think Ubuntu is their baby. The sweat of > their brow, and therefore, only successful because of what they do. > While I will be the first to say that these voices are still the great > minority, they are getting louder. And diminish the fantastic work done > by so many. I think you misunderstand my point. I don't need external motivation to work on Linux. I have my own for my own reasons. My point is that I have limited time for development work and that if someone else wants me to spend that time on what they perceive as a problem, they need to convince me it's a worthwhile investment of my time (compared to what I would have otherwise done). As you said, there are many ways to contribute and they are all needed. My concern is the idea that "because a user said they want it" is a meaninful metric in a largely volunteer project. In Free software projects, the meaningful metric for what gets done is what the people doing the work think needs doing (and this applies to all types of work, not just development, in the project). Volunteers can't be ordered. They have to be convinced. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 12:03 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > I think you misunderstand my point. No I got it. And I think that that thinking is wrong and dangerous to Linux in general, and Ubuntu in specific. > My concern is the idea that "because a user said they want it" is a meaninful > metric in a largely volunteer project. In Free software projects, the > meaningful metric for what gets done is what the people doing the work think > needs doing (and this applies to all types of work, not just development, in > the project). Volunteers can't be ordered. They have to be convinced. If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of features that need to be implemented. Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority list, your competition will. Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you really helping? -- Kevin Fries Senior Linux Engineer Computer and Communications Technology, Inc A Division of Japan Communications Inc. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
Kevin Fries wrote: > You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you > place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you > really helping? *IF* I were paid I would agree. What it comes down to with many of us is we find a niche we care about and work on that. That work benefits users of those packages. What this touches on for me is my long-time feeling that for Ubuntu to continue to be sustainable many more of us need to be paid maintainers/developers. There's a list of at least 10 people I know that should be paid to maintain Universe. Until that or something like it happens Kevin, you simple can't demand the types of things you suggest from people. Also this is a conversation (like many) that just doesn't work on a ML. -Cory \m/ (Ubuntu Studio lead) -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
There are some really strong arguments being put forth in this thread. I think I can understand how all the participates feel. I think there is a developer-user disconnect and I tried to touch on this in my long winded "best foot forward" thread. That being said I have contributed absolutely nothing and I am in no position to complain. Perhaps the problem here is that people should get paid and if they are getting paid they should listen more closely to what the end user needs. I don't have a lot of money. I just have a small business selling used lab instruments but I have lots of opportunities on the horizon. However I know there is a vast financial opportunity in front of me that I cannot capitalize on fast enough. There are millions of dollars to be made in instrument control software. I am so short on time with basic survival stuff that I cannot reach my goal. Would anyone be interested in creating an "Ubuntu entrepreneur list"?? If we could help each other out maybe we could actually make money and pay people to make the modifications we want. Just a thought-Patrick Cory K. wrote: > Kevin Fries wrote: > >> You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you >> place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you >> really helping? >> > > *IF* I were paid I would agree. What it comes down to with many of us is > we find a niche we care about and work on that. That work benefits users > of those packages. > > What this touches on for me is my long-time feeling that for Ubuntu to > continue to be sustainable many more of us need to be paid > maintainers/developers. There's a list of at least 10 people I know that > should be paid to maintain Universe. Until that or something like it > happens Kevin, you simple can't demand the types of things you suggest > from people. > > Also this is a conversation (like many) that just doesn't work on a ML. > > > -Cory \m/ (Ubuntu Studio lead) > > -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)
On Thu, Dec 06, 2007 at 11:55:40AM -0700, Kevin Fries wrote: > > On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 12:03 -0500, Scott Kitterman wrote: > > I think you misunderstand my point. > > No I got it. And I think that that thinking is wrong and dangerous to > Linux in general, and Ubuntu in specific. Kevin - howdy! I know you're doing cool stuff for Ubuntu and the market, and you bring some good business perspectives to Ubuntu as a product. And I want Ubuntu to be a great product! But Ubuntu is more than that. Please recognize that there are many different sorts of people involved in Ubuntu, and respect everyone's right to do what they feel called to do. Scott speaks for many of us who are not paid. In fact seminal essays on Free Software sociology have demonstrated that this is not an uncommon position - the old "scratching an itch" motivation. Telling people who you're not paying what to do using inflamatory language is just not very helpful IMHO :-) > > My concern is the idea that "because a user said they want it" is > > a meaninful metric in a largely volunteer project. In Free > > software projects, the meaningful metric for what gets done is > > what the people doing the work think needs doing (and this applies > > to all types of work, not just development, in the project). > > Volunteers can't be ordered. They have to be convinced. > If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from > elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in > ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to > understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a > Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. You can indeed pay someone to do work related to Ubuntu, just like in the commercial software world. You can pay Canonical, or another Ubuntu support firm, or folks that do upstream development, or vendors that sell software or hardware that runs on Ubuntu. And then you get to specify what you'll pay for. But Ubuntu is MORE than a commercial project. It is also a rich, diverse community of contributors. Some developers, some writers some bug triagers, etc etc. They contribute in ways that are very different from the way the business world works. And we benefit in wonderful and unexpected ways from the diversity of their motivations. I agree that excellent attention to customers is hugely important to bug #1. But [gasp] not everyone is doing this because of bug #1. Some are just having fun, and still contributing in excellent ways. Free software projects flourish when everyone is respected for how they want to contribute. > Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely > your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what > needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of > features that need to be implemented. > > Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. > > If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority > list, your competition will. For the folks that are paid, right on. For the volunteers - maybe that isn't what floats their boat. Let them choose how to contribute. Remember, they're letting YOU choose how to leverage the result of their work, after all. That is part of the magic of free software. > Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real > business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the > customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into > something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours > providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its > not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. > > Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the > door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as > the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer > so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have > over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do > what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or > Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). Right on about checking egos at the door. And I think ego is all about telling someone else how to do something. So I delight in your energy and way of contributing to the Ubuntu ecosystem. But recognize that there is more than one way, and that is to our benefit, and please don't project your views onto others. > You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you > place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you > really helping? This conversation started off (in October!) with a non-developer trying to find out if a post to the list about a "favorite bug" was appropriate. Unfortunately we've now regressed into a non-so-pretty internal argument. What an inappropriate waste!! In summary I think we will make a
Re: Kickseed, Kickstart, Preseed
On Thu, 2007-12-06 at 12:43 +, Colin Watson wrote: > On Wed, Dec 05, 2007 at 12:30:23PM +, Matt Zimmerman wrote: > > On Tue, Dec 04, 2007 at 08:43:34PM -0800, MJang wrote: > > > Wondering where Ubuntu is going w/r/t automated installations. I see > > > bits on Kickseed, but nothing in Gutsy. I see per > > > https://launchpad.net/kickseed/ that it was in Feisty. > > kickseed has been in Ubuntu since 5.04 and continues to be there. You're > being confused by Launchpad's odd display of project<->distribution > packaging links (https://bugs.launchpad.net/launchpad/+bug/109886).com I appreciate the clarification. The info I read led me to believe that it was under development. If I understand correctly, the kickseed work has been incorporated in the current Kickstart packages. Detailed questions will be asked on the list that you cited. Thanks, Mike -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
report(ed)bug(s) slipped through
http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.user/126515 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.user/124895 http://article.gmane.org/gmane.linux.ubuntu.user/126118 http://www.google.com/search?as_q=reportbug&hl=de&num=30&btnG=Google-Suche&as_epq=&as_oq=&as_eq=&lr=&cr=&as_ft=i&as_filetype=&as_qdr=all&as_occt=any&as_dt=i&as_sitesearch=gmane.org%2Fgmane.linux.ubuntu.user&as_rights=&safe=images -- Thilo key: 0x4A411E09 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
[Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
This was sent to me personally, and it has comments directed to others in the group... Therefore, I assume it was meant for the group at large. Kevin Fries Forwarded Message From: Richard A. Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash) Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:54:45 -0600 On Thursday 06 December 2007, Kevin Fries wrote: [...] | If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from | elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in | ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to | understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a | Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. | | Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely | your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what | needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of | features that need to be implemented. I couldn't agree with you more! | Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. Actually, this wouldn't be Rule #1, but it is pretty much the Golden Rule of Business. Mark Cuban said it best a few years back, "Treat your customers like they own you, because they do." The hard part with this though in our little neck of the woods is that all of us are also customers, so it can get confusing. | If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority | list, your competition will. And they are (ie. PCLinuxOS, Fedora). | Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real | business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the | customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into | something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours | providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its | not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. It was all fine and dandy until this paragraph. This is the one thing that really could irk a volunteer to such a project. I have been around this community for a couple of years now and talking to some past developers and contributors, the one thing that was common was that "we are working for free while they are making money from our work." I look at it like this..Kubuntu is giving me more than I could ever give it. How? 1) I have a totally free operating system 2) I don't have to worry about all the other things I would have to with that other OS 3) The development community allows me to participate in which I get to learn the ins-and-outs of what really goes on (after a while, this is a nice CV bullet point) 4) The friends I have made in the process are totally worth every minute I have put in. | Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the | door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as | the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer | so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have | over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do | what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or | Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). I am 50/50 on this paragraph. I wholeheartedly believe there should be the "checking the ego at the door," however a little bit of ego never hurt anybody. For instance, look at Microsoft. They have the biggest ego of all, and they have yet to really fail at what they do. Going on with Microsoft, they do indeed listen to their customers, just because we don't see it simply because we are not their customers, doesn't mean they don't. If they didn't listen, would they really be as big as they are? I mean Apple and other operating systems have been around just as long. Imagine if the Linux community would have really listened to the complaints in the 90s, I think we would then be further than we are today. In our eyes, yes we do have a true advantage over Microsoft, but to the billions of Microsoft users out there, they laugh at that advantage. | You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you | place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you | really helping? Very true, but one thing I have noticed from doing so is this: 1) Linux isn't gaining the ground with proprietary vendors. Why? because most distros have listened totally to the customer and have provided them with the proprietary solutions. This isn't helping in my opinion. And the one thing that really sucks with these proprietary solutions, we can't help/support the users when problems occur. The only thing we can do is say "oh well, that is what you get when using proprietary stuff, we can't help you, ask . The great thing about Linux is its scalability. It can pretty much be adapted to most environments. Providing proprietary soluti
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
Hi All, I think this thread has gotten way off topic. Can somebody in charge flag this thread as a "dead horse" [1] ? I think there is some good discussion going on, but those discussions should be taken to new, fresh threads. I do think that in order to post to lists intended for developers to read you should follow some of the guidelines in articles such as [2], do some research and show that you can at least think clearly. (I think I should have followed these rules better before posting... I don't even know if the question was really answered anyway, other than pointing at the guidelines, which I did read before posting at least.) I don't really think this thread should continue as it is. Let the developers and moderators get back to real work. Thanks, Todd [1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Beating_a_dead_horse [2] http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html On Dec 6, 2007 4:05 PM, Kevin Fries <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > This was sent to me personally, and it has comments directed to others > in the group... Therefore, I assume it was meant for the group at large. > > Kevin Fries > Forwarded Message > From: Richard A. Johnson <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince > crash) > Date: Thu, 6 Dec 2007 13:54:45 -0600 > > On Thursday 06 December 2007, Kevin Fries wrote: > [...] > | If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from > | elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in > | ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to > | understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a > | Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. > | > | Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely > | your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what > | needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of > | features that need to be implemented. > > I couldn't agree with you more! > > | Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. > > Actually, this wouldn't be Rule #1, but it is pretty much the Golden Rule of > Business. Mark Cuban said it best a few years back, "Treat your customers > like they own you, because they do." The hard part with this though in our > little neck of the woods is that all of us are also customers, so it can get > confusing. > > | If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority > | list, your competition will. > > And they are (ie. PCLinuxOS, Fedora). > > | Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real > | business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the > | customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into > | something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours > | providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its > | not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. > > It was all fine and dandy until this paragraph. This is the one thing that > really could irk a volunteer to such a project. I have been around this > community for a couple of years now and talking to some past developers and > contributors, the one thing that was common was that "we are working for free > while they are making money from our work." I look at it like this..Kubuntu > is giving me more than I could ever give it. How? > > 1) I have a totally free operating system > 2) I don't have to worry about all the other things I would have to with that > other OS > 3) The development community allows me to participate in which I get to learn > the ins-and-outs of what really goes on (after a while, this is a nice CV > bullet point) > 4) The friends I have made in the process are totally worth every minute I > have put in. > > | Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the > | door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as > | the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer > | so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have > | over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do > | what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or > | Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). > > I am 50/50 on this paragraph. I wholeheartedly believe there should be > the "checking the ego at the door," however a little bit of ego never hurt > anybody. For instance, look at Microsoft. They have the biggest ego of all, > and they have yet to really fail at what they do. Going on with Microsoft, > they do indeed listen to their customers, just because we don't see it simply > because we are not their customers, doesn't mean they don't. If they didn't > listen, would they really be as big as they are? I mean Apple and other > operating systems have been around just as long. Imagine if the Linux >
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
Sarah Hobbs wrote the following on 06.12.2007 12:47 > According to [2], the point of contact for users to get in touch with > developers is ubuntu-devel-discuss. > That being said, there are a number of developers who choose not to read > this list, for various reasons. one contradict the other?! > Hobbsee > > [2] https://wiki.ubuntu.com/UbuntuDevelModeration bye -- Thilo key: 0x4A411E09 -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
On Thursday 06 December 2007, Kevin Fries wrote: | This was sent to me personally, and it has comments directed to others | in the group... Therefore, I assume it was meant for the group at large. Thanks Kevin, sorry about that. I must have hit the wrong reply button. -- Richard A. Johnson [EMAIL PROTECTED] GPG Key: 0x2E2C0124 signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part. -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
RESENDING MY ORIGINAL POST TO THE LIST. This way Kevin doesn't blasted because of my comments :) On Thursday 06 December 2007, Kevin Fries wrote: [...] | If I don't get my steak the way I ordered it. I buy my steak from | elsewhere. Ubuntu with no users, is not anything but an exercise in | ego. What the customer wants is the only real metric. You need to | understand that as a developer, and I live with that every day as a | Consultant, Designer, and Implementer. | | Which of those priorities you wish to work on, however, is completely | your own decision. But the customer MUST set the priorities of what | needs done in the bigger picture. And, the customer MUST set the list of | features that need to be implemented. I couldn't agree with you more! | Rule #1 of Business: Its not about you. Actually, this wouldn't be Rule #1, but it is pretty much the Golden Rule of Business. Mark Cuban said it best a few years back, "Treat your customers like they own you, because they do." The hard part with this though in our little neck of the woods is that all of us are also customers, so it can get confusing. | If you do not make your customers wishes and desires #1 on your priority | list, your competition will. And they are (ie. PCLinuxOS, Fedora). | Lets not forget, Ubuntu is a business product, distributed by a real | business. Therefore, its not about you... or me. Its about the | customer. Making the customer feel like they have to talk you into | something, is just not good business. This is why I spend so many hours | providing help to ANYONE who asks. Even people I would rather not. Its | not about me, its about Ubuntu, and what is best for the project. It was all fine and dandy until this paragraph. This is the one thing that really could irk a volunteer to such a project. I have been around this community for a couple of years now and talking to some past developers and contributors, the one thing that was common was that "we are working for free while they are making money from our work." I look at it like this..Kubuntu is giving me more than I could ever give it. How? 1) I have a totally free operating system 2) I don't have to worry about all the other things I would have to with that other OS 3) The development community allows me to participate in which I get to learn the ins-and-outs of what really goes on (after a while, this is a nice CV bullet point) 4) The friends I have made in the process are totally worth every minute I have put in. | Even more so in an all volunteer endeavor, egos must be checked at the | door. Developer's egos, designer's egos, and consultant's egos. We as | the people trying to make this a success, need to listen to the customer | so that there will be more of them. Its the one true advantage we have | over Microsoft which is notorious for blowing off their customer to do | what is in their best interest (Can we say Windows Genuine Advantage, or | Digital Rights Management... I knew we could). I am 50/50 on this paragraph. I wholeheartedly believe there should be the "checking the ego at the door," however a little bit of ego never hurt anybody. For instance, look at Microsoft. They have the biggest ego of all, and they have yet to really fail at what they do. Going on with Microsoft, they do indeed listen to their customers, just because we don't see it simply because we are not their customers, doesn't mean they don't. If they didn't listen, would they really be as big as they are? I mean Apple and other operating systems have been around just as long. Imagine if the Linux community would have really listened to the complaints in the 90s, I think we would then be further than we are today. In our eyes, yes we do have a true advantage over Microsoft, but to the billions of Microsoft users out there, they laugh at that advantage. | You allow the customers wishes to be the only real metric because you | place Ubuntu and Linux's needs before your own. Otherwise, are you | really helping? Very true, but one thing I have noticed from doing so is this: 1) Linux isn't gaining the ground with proprietary vendors. Why? because most distros have listened totally to the customer and have provided them with the proprietary solutions. This isn't helping in my opinion. And the one thing that really sucks with these proprietary solutions, we can't help/support the users when problems occur. The only thing we can do is say "oh well, that is what you get when using proprietary stuff, we can't help you, ask . The great thing about Linux is its scalability. It can pretty much be adapted to most environments. Providing proprietary solutions to the end user isn't doing anything for the cause, and is actually making us look like another Microsoft. We are starting to provide some of the same proprietary solutions (mainly drivers and codecs) to make the customer happy, and by doing this the majority of distro developers aren't aimin
Re: [Fwd: Re: Appropriateness of posts to this list (Was Re: evince crash)]
On Thursday 06 December 2007 16:58, Richard A. Johnson wrote: > Scott, I do have a problem with the document you linked to about asking > smart questions. Most of the answers I have seen in there are stupid > answers or stupid solutions. I was always raised with the idea that there > isn't a such thing as a stupid question, and I believe that. Just because > most of us know to Google this or that, or know how to find solutions, that > doesn't mean that every Tom, Dick, and Harry does. I have a professor who > has multiple degrees (Bachelors (couple of them), Masters (up there with > those too), and PhDs), yet he asks his students for help researching > information online because he isn't as savvy as some of the students, that > doesn't make any of his questions stupid. I say burn that smart questions > document, as it is obviously from the 90s with the "STFW" and "RTFM" type > assessments. Its a miracle that the community has survived through all of > that stuff and not driven more people away. http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html is probably poorly titled. His definition of smart is questions that geeks will be interested in answering. It's not about smart or stupid questions, but getting people excited about helping you (this gets back to the how do you motivate volunteers question). Some people are good at hand holding new people through their initial baby steps with Linux (or anything). Others are not. I still do user support on #ubuntu-server and the ubuntu-server ML and while I don't tell people to STFW or RTFM, I do tend to ignore questions that would require me to do some research unless: 1. They are interesting to me. 2. I have some hint that the asker has at least tried to solve the problem themself first. I'm long past thinking I can or should try to solve everyone's problems in the world, so I pick and choose. That document is about getting people to choose your question to answer. Scott K -- Ubuntu-devel-discuss mailing list Ubuntu-devel-discuss@lists.ubuntu.com Modify settings or unsubscribe at: https://lists.ubuntu.com/mailman/listinfo/ubuntu-devel-discuss
