New Programs for Hardy?

[Conrad Knauer]

Since we're at the formative stages of Hardy I thought I'd start a
thread about apps which might be good for inclusion in the default
Ubuntu setup.

My suggestion:

Miro (GPL v2 or later; currently in universe) has reached its 1.0 milestone
http://www.getmiro.com/blog/2007/11/miro-10-is-here/
I note that its getting praise from the press
http://techland.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/11/13/the-future-of-internet-tv/
I've used it in the past and its quite interesting.

CK

P.S. I was looking at /usr/share/doc/sun-java6-jre/copyright and had a
'WTF? moment':

---
This product is covered and controlled by U.S.
Export Control laws and may be subject to the export or
import laws in other countries.  Nuclear, missile, chemical
biological weapons or nuclear maritime end uses or end
users, whether direct or indirect, are strictly prohibited.

Export or reexport to countries subject to U.S.
embargo or to entities identified on U.S.  export exclusion
lists, including, but not limited to, the denied persons and
specially designated nationals lists is strictly prohibited.
---

Apparently one cam made WMDs with it or something; no wonder its in
multiverse! ;)
Are we ever going to get some form of Java in Ubuntu by default I wonder?

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Re: New Programs for Hardy?

[Conrad Knauer]

On Nov 14, 2007 3:19 AM, Conrad Knauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Since we're at the formative stages of Hardy I thought I'd start a
> thread about apps which might be good for inclusion in the default
> Ubuntu setup.
[...]
> Are we ever going to get some form of Java in Ubuntu by default I wonder?

I should have looked a little more first; the "icedtea" packages will
do the trick
(and they make Miro 1.0 not crash on my system;
http://bugzilla.pculture.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9064 ;)

See also http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IcedTea

Definitely hope it makes it into Hardy main! :-)

CK

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Our best foot forward

[Patrick]

Hi Everyone

This is my first post here.

It seems to me that me that if an administration job needs to get done 
there are pretty much two ways of going about it:

With GUI assistance, i.e Synaptic
or
Through the Command line with possible manual editing of configuration 
files.


Synaptic and it's counterparts are great but surely they must take some 
time to  write and risk losing the options available at the command line.

The CLI is great but with power comes complexity. So my suggestion is a 
halfway point between the "hand-holding" of the GUI and the sometimes 
confusing world of the CLI.

I / We could write a series of tutorial/helper scripts to guide people 
quicker and get the job done faster.

For instance I just set up an NFS server. A hybrid script-tutorial 
something like what I wrote below might provide quick guidance with less 
typing.

#!/bin/bash

echo "we need to do such and such, here are some options to try, blah, 
blah, blah etc"

sudo gedit /etc/exports

echo "okay now we need to do this because blah blah"

sudo exportfs -ra

sudo /etc/init.d/portmap restart

sudo /etc/init.d/nfs-kernel-server restart



There must be lots of people out there that don't have any trouble 
reading, copying, pasting and changing permission with scripts (or could 
learn to do so quickly) but are pressed for time and have only 10 
minutes to set up something like an NFS server. A script that suggested 
a popular set up but that did not enforce it and allowed for 
customization would give everyone the best of both worlds. Would this 
not save time and most importantly make Ubuntu more marketable?

Please let me know what you think-Patrick




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Re: [Consortium] Benefit of Compiz to audio work?

[Steve Harris]

On 14 Nov 2007, at 10:38, Daniel James wrote:

> Hi Cory,
>
>> Some have said that moving the drawing of windows off the the GFX  
>> card
>> would help the load on the CPU and thus keep xruns to a minimum.
>
> I'm sceptical about that, because drawing windows shouldn't be causing
> xruns if the system is set up properly. I believe JACK Meterbridge  
> uses
> libsdl for drawing the meter needles efficiently, but I believe most
> free software audio apps don't do much in the way of graphics
> acceleration (yet).

Actually, SDL is very inefficient, there was an alpha OpenGL version  
of meterbridge (which I've since lost) that was much, much more  
efficient.

If you perform the same action on a 3D card and using the CPU the non  
average the 3D card will use less power to do the same work (it's  
optimised for that, whereas CPU are huge complex beasts). But,  
ofcourse Vista and Leopard aren't doing the same action as they would  
on the CPU.

One problem with 3D cards is that they can (or could) cause XRUNs, as  
they sometimes hold the kernel busy waiting for some action on the  
card to return. I don't know if this happens with modern drivers and  
cards though.

- Steve

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IT8212 ATA RAID Controller device driver?

[Tony Koker]

Hi,

   Can anyone point me to an IT8212 ATA RAID Controller device
driver/module?  I've been poking around, and thought I'd seen it not too
long ago?

HAGO - tony K
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Re: [Consortium] Benefit of Compiz to audio work?

[Daniel James]

Hi Cory,

> Some have said that moving the drawing of windows off the the GFX card
> would help the load on the CPU and thus keep xruns to a minimum.

I'm sceptical about that, because drawing windows shouldn't be causing 
xruns if the system is set up properly. I believe JACK Meterbridge uses 
libsdl for drawing the meter needles efficiently, but I believe most 
free software audio apps don't do much in the way of graphics 
acceleration (yet).

I can think of a number of drawbacks to using Compiz on audio machines 
though:

1. Reliance on proprietary drivers for systems that otherwise don't 
require them. OpenGL is unusable if you don't have hardware 
acceleration, and not everyone has a Matrox card.

2. Requirement for energy-hungry 3D cards (some of these cards need more 
electricity than CPUs which are perfectly usable for audio work). Apart 
from any environmental or cost considerations, more energy = more waste 
heat = more cooling noise. Which is bad in the studio, of course.

3. Electrical waste mountain. There are millions of machines out there 
which are perfectly (re)usable as audio workstations, but make Compiz a 
*requirement* for using free software, and they'll have to go into landfill.

Y'know, both OS X and Vista have gone down the power-hungry, 
new-hardware-or-forget-it route, and I'm not sure we need to follow them 
there.

Cheers!

Daniel

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Re: GIMP *final* release for Gutsy?

[Greg K Nicholson]

Michael Maurizi:
> How about including changes to the version string and so on the next
> time theres a security update for GIMP?

Yes; when an Ubuntu package has fixes from upstream applied, that 
they've released in a new version with a bumped version number, the 
version number in Ubuntu should also be bumped to match.


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apt-cacher in main

[Fabian Rodriguez]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160

Hi,

I'd like to propose moving apt-cacher to main. I haven't done main
inclusion reports before so bear with me while I dive into this :)

Description: caching proxy system for Debian package and source files

 Apt-cacher performs caching of .deb and source packages which have been
 downloaded by local users. It is most useful for local area networks
with slow
 internet uplink.

I have used apt-cacher in many different scenarios and I believe it is
a good candidate for inclusion in main. During my work at Canonical as
a systems support analyst there have been a few occasions when
customer would have benefited of having official support for this too.

I checked security vulnerabilities and it seems there is only one back
in 2005, fixed within hours of being reported:
http://nvd.nist.gov/nvd.cfm?cvename=CVE-2005-1854

The package seems well maintained, see:
http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/a/apt-cacher/apt-cacher_1.5.5/changelog

I also think this would be a good candidate to have on the LiveCD
installer and/or the Server CD installer images, as in many scenarios
CDs are used for a first install and then other PCs in the same LAN
could use that first install apt-cacher to save tremendously on
bandwidth - a common situation outside high-bandwidth areas.

I'd like to hear opinions on this, I already put the unedited main
inclusion report template in but I wanted to start the discussion here
before going any further. I also aim to get apt-cacher approved in the
server package review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview .

Thank you,

Fabián Rodríguez - Ubuntu Quebec Local Community team contact
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuebecTeam
Montreal, QC, Canada

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: PGP/Mime available upon request
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

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DxW91nq1GQsFxiH13eZz+rI=
=+XlE
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Re: Our best foot forward

[Eoin Rogers]

On 14/11/2007, Patrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> So my suggestion is a
> halfway point between the "hand-holding" of the GUI and the sometimes
> confusing world of the CLI.



IMO, beginners like the hand-holding. It's vital for Ubuntu not to get
confusing for the end-user. Getting them to run shell scripts may be going a
bit too far!

- Eoin Rogers
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Re: IT8212 ATA RAID Controller device driver?

[Phillip Susi]

Tony Koker wrote:
> Hi,
> 
>Can anyone point me to an IT8212 ATA RAID Controller device 
> driver/module?  I've been poking around, and thought I'd seen it not too 
> long ago?

See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FakeRaidHowto


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apt-cacher in main

[Fabian Rodriguez]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160

(not sure if this made it so re-sending)

Hi,

I'd like to propose moving apt-cacher to main. I haven't done main
inclusion reports before so bear with me while I dive into this :)

Description: caching proxy system for Debian package and source files

 Apt-cacher performs caching of .deb and source packages which have been
 downloaded by local users. It is most useful for local area networks
with slow
 internet uplink.

I have used apt-cacher in many different scenarios and I believe it is
a good candidate for inclusion in main. During my work at Canonical as
a systems support analyst there have been a few occasions when
customer would have benefited of having official support for this too.

I checked security vulnerabilities and it seems there is only one back
in 2005, fixed within hours of being reported:
http://nvd.nist.gov/nvd.cfm?cvename=CVE-2005-1854

The package seems well maintained, see:
http://changelogs.ubuntu.com/changelogs/pool/universe/a/apt-cacher/apt-cacher_1.5.5/changelog

I also think this would be a good candidate to have on the LiveCD
installer and/or the Server CD installer images, as in many scenarios
CDs are used for a first install and then other PCs in the same LAN
could use that first install apt-cacher to save tremendously on
bandwidth - a common situation outside high-bandwidth areas.

I'd like to hear opinions on this, I already put the unedited main
inclusion report template in but I wanted to start the discussion here
before going any further. I also aim to get apt-cacher approved in the
server package review: https://wiki.ubuntu.com/ServerPackageReview .

Thank you,

Fabián Rodríguez - Ubuntu Quebec Local Community team contact
https://wiki.ubuntu.com/QuebecTeam
Montreal, QC, Canada

-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.6 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: PGP/Mime available upon request
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org

iD8DBQFHOySdfUcTXFrypNURA16kAKDshQjt9MPRi8OXCau9e+NiTNTiUQCg1bs7
/Hy59wl9sg6zE/8pkkBQksk=
=Iuj+
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

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Reappearing mouse issues in ogengl applications

[Tim Kersten]

Hello,

There is a bug that has come back. It was originally reported on
2006-09-18. I don't think anybody has figured out what was actually
causing the problem but it was fixed during feisty. Unfortunately it
is now back. The bug causes the mouse pointer to periodically jump to
different locations on the screen making most opengl games unplayable.

I had mistakenly changed the bug to xserver-xorg-input-mouse but I
don't want to change it back to another package without knowing for
sure what is causing the problem. It would be really nice to fix this
issue once and for all. My comment on this latest change says that
it's fixed, but this an error on my behalf. It is still broken.

If anybody has any ideas how to track down the cause of the problem, I
would really appreciate it.

Tim

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Re: Our best foot forward

[Patrick]

Hi Eoin and list

I agree that shell scripts are not for beginners. Really I think Ubuntu 
is already really good for the beginners, although a different bred of 
OS , I don't see what is more difficult then let's say windoze. However 
for a beginner administrator, let's say someone who is trying to set up 
a small business network, an FTP server etc, it is a different story.

Take me for example, I still would not call myself an expert but I have 
come a long way from last year. Last year I set up an FTP server(VSFTP) 
it took me 1-1.5 days. Now I can set one up in 15 minutes because I know 
what to do. I read through the online tutorials and I was instructed to 
type vi /etc/vsftpd.conf. I then had to learn how to use vi(which I 
hate). Then I had to figure out that the tutorial probably should have 
said sudo vi /etc/vsftpd.conf. To boot VSFTP was not my first choice 
there was another open source one that turned out to not be very good. 
I  was discouraged and then tried setting up Webmin which took more time 
to learn and in the end did not really do want I wanted it to do so I 
went back to manual editing.

I have a small business. Things are gong well enough this year but last 
year was a real struggle. 1.5 days really hurt. I can't stand close 
source software but the better business move would have been to pay 
$100-200 on a closed source one click install windoze App.

There is tons of great open source software out there but we have to 
lower the barrier to entry. We are fighting Billions of dollars and 
political influence, we can't just be as good as windoze we have to be a 
lot better to get noticed.

If someone had a script like this for me it would have really helped:

#!/bin/bash

echo "we are going to install vsftpd"

sudo apt-get install vsftpd

echo "you will need to edit the following configuration file to get this 
working\
please change the listen to address to your ip\
if you want more then anonymous access please add a user name and file 
permissions

sudo gedit /etc/vsftp.conf

echo "now we need to start the server"

sudo /etc/init.d/vsftpd start

echo "please check your your FTP server now by typing= ftp your-server ip"

I think a new administrator could get a server off the ground in an hour 
or so and at no cost. His/Her boss would say great this cost me $20 (or 
whatever the hourly wage is). If I was the new administrator last year 
and I made $20 an hour, my boss wold have said " this cost me $240. We 
should have paid for that Windows one click app.

Ubuntu is awesome but maybe it needs to be easier for administrators.

I would be happy to write a dozen of these scripts but I will need help 
to develop a big repository.

Thanks-Patrick








Eoin Rogers wrote:
>
>
> On 14/11/2007, *Patrick* <[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
> > wrote:
>
> So my suggestion is a
> halfway point between the "hand-holding" of the GUI and the sometimes
> confusing world of the CLI.
>
>
>
> IMO, beginners like the hand-holding. It's vital for Ubuntu not to get 
> confusing for the end-user. Getting them to run shell scripts may be 
> going a bit too far!
>
> - Eoin Rogers
>
>


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Re: New Programs for Hardy?

[Bryan Haskins]

Our miro packages need some major work. In the form of:
- New Upstream, 1.0
- Some compilation reconsiderations

I'm not specifically sure of the cause, but the repo version has some major
issues, perhaps it was due to the lib boost incompatibilities of the last
version, well now the code works with it natively (they even have their own
gutsy repository). I was experiencing crashes and major slowdowns as the
guide loaded, think waiting 10 minutes (on a more than capable system) for
the main UI and the Guide to load, the gusty repo version from them, snappy
and instant. So there is some inconsistencies there that we should look
at...

As far as Java, we *try* to push Iced Tea, the GPL Java implementation, If
you notice when trying John's Azureus package with no java environments
installed, it will attempt to install Iced Tea, rather than the OSS
Friendly, but not FOSS JRE, iced tea for all intents and purposes works fine
for use anyway, much unlike old implementations we pushed with Azureus which
were... less than to be desired some times.

And... yea It looks like you already talk about Iced Tea in the second
post I not just saw... oh well, I'll leave it here, it's valuable
information for anyone interested =]

Back to the original point... I would totally say Miro would be a good
candidate for Main.. It's not very large.. BUT it does have a java
dependency... because of this I can almost guarantee it will not see the
Install Disc for some time to come, even though Iced Tea is sure a movement,
we're working with 700mb here, compression only does so much.


On Nov 14, 2007 4:19 AM, Conrad Knauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Since we're at the formative stages of Hardy I thought I'd start a
> thread about apps which might be good for inclusion in the default
> Ubuntu setup.
>
> My suggestion:
>
> Miro (GPL v2 or later; currently in universe) has reached its 1.0milestone
> http://www.getmiro.com/blog/2007/11/miro-10-is-here/
> I note that its getting praise from the press
>
> http://techland.blogs.fortune.cnn.com/2007/11/13/the-future-of-internet-tv/
> I've used it in the past and its quite interesting.
>
> CK
>
> P.S. I was looking at /usr/share/doc/sun-java6-jre/copyright and had a
> 'WTF? moment':
>
> ---
> This product is covered and controlled by U.S.
> Export Control laws and may be subject to the export or
> import laws in other countries.  Nuclear, missile, chemical
> biological weapons or nuclear maritime end uses or end
> users, whether direct or indirect, are strictly prohibited.
>
> Export or reexport to countries subject to U.S.
> embargo or to entities identified on U.S.  export exclusion
> lists, including, but not limited to, the denied persons and
> specially designated nationals lists is strictly prohibited.
> ---
>
> Apparently one cam made WMDs with it or something; no wonder its in
> multiverse! ;)
> Are we ever going to get some form of Java in Ubuntu by default I wonder?
>
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>



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Re: apt-cacher in main

[Kevin Fries]

On Wed, 2007-11-14 at 11:38 -0500, Fabian Rodriguez wrote:
> I also think this would be a good candidate to have on the LiveCD
> installer and/or the Server CD installer images, as in many scenarios
> CDs are used for a first install and then other PCs in the same LAN
> could use that first install apt-cacher to save tremendously on
> bandwidth - a common situation outside high-bandwidth areas.

I am not sure it needs to be moved. But, what would be totally cool is
if the installer scanned the local network on install and configured
apt-cacher in sources.list instead of the normal repos by default when
if finds a server.  That would be a terrific usability upgrade.

But, since only one server needs it, is there an advantage to moving it
from Universe?  It not like its in Multiverse which is turned off by
default.  If I remember correctly, isn't Universe turned on by default
on initial install?

-- 
Kevin Fries
Senior Linux Engineer
Computer and Communications Technology, Inc
A Division of Japan Communications Inc.

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Re: Our best foot forward

[Onno Benschop]

On 15/11/07 02:51, Patrick wrote:
> Hi Eoin and list
>
> I agree that shell scripts are not for beginners. Really I think Ubuntu 
> is already really good for the beginners, although a different bred of 
> OS , I don't see what is more difficult then let's say windoze. However 
> for a beginner administrator, let's say someone who is trying to set up 
> a small business network, an FTP server etc, it is a different story.
>
> Take me for example, I still would not call myself an expert but I have 
> come a long way from last year. Last year I set up an FTP server(VSFTP) 
> it took me 1-1.5 days. Now I can set one up in 15 minutes because I know 
> what to do. I read through the online tutorials and I was instructed to 
> type vi /etc/vsftpd.conf. I then had to learn how to use vi(which I 
> hate). Then I had to figure out that the tutorial probably should have 
> said sudo vi /etc/vsftpd.conf. To boot VSFTP was not my first choice 
> there was another open source one that turned out to not be very good. 
> I  was discouraged and then tried setting up Webmin which took more time 
> to learn and in the end did not really do want I wanted it to do so I 
> went back to manual editing.
>
> I have a small business. Things are gong well enough this year but last 
> year was a real struggle. 1.5 days really hurt. I can't stand close 
> source software but the better business move would have been to pay 
> $100-200 on a closed source one click install windoze App.
>
> There is tons of great open source software out there but we have to 
> lower the barrier to entry. We are fighting Billions of dollars and 
> political influence, we can't just be as good as windoze we have to be a 
> lot better to get noticed.
>
> If someone had a script like this for me it would have really helped:
>
> #!/bin/bash
>
> echo "we are going to install vsftpd"
>
> sudo apt-get install vsftpd
>
> echo "you will need to edit the following configuration file to get this 
> working\
> please change the listen to address to your ip\
> if you want more then anonymous access please add a user name and file 
> permissions
>
> sudo gedit /etc/vsftp.conf
>
> echo "now we need to start the server"
>
> sudo /etc/init.d/vsftpd start
>
> echo "please check your your FTP server now by typing= ftp your-server ip"
>
> I think a new administrator could get a server off the ground in an hour 
> or so and at no cost. His/Her boss would say great this cost me $20 (or 
> whatever the hourly wage is). If I was the new administrator last year 
> and I made $20 an hour, my boss wold have said " this cost me $240. We 
> should have paid for that Windows one click app.
>
> Ubuntu is awesome but maybe it needs to be easier for administrators.
>
> I would be happy to write a dozen of these scripts but I will need help 
> to develop a big repository.
>
> Thanks-Patrick
>   
As a business owner I understand exactly what you're saying here, but I
think that what you're proposing as a solution will not actually assist.


Fundamentally, the script(s) you're describing as I see it, are really a
command-line based walk through of a tutorial.

The problem is not getting vsftp installed and configured, the problem
is that you don't know how to do it (yet). One approach to that is
education, that is, documentation that assists you in the process.
Making a shell script to do this is a complete waste of energy because
you're going to end up making a script framework that can deal with
instructions, text, information, branches, mark-up, examples and other
exceptions.

Guess what, that's what a WIKI already does.

So, while I agree that setting up an FTP server shouldn't be hard, the
problem is not "the one click installer", we already have that, it's
called Synaptic, the problem is configuration and documentation.

Now, there are a few things that you personally can do about this:

* Write bug reports that indicate why the current installation of
  vsftp "didn't work out of the box", because the whole idea of this
  fan-dangled package manager is that it "just works". There are
  pre-install and post-install scripts included in many packages.
  Perhaps all that is needed is to add or fix some functionality in
  those.
* You can contribute WIKI pages to document the process, from
  selecting the appropriate package, with reasons why you tried
  others and found them to be wanting, what you did to make it work
  and how you achieved success.

In my opinion, those two single things would be much more helpful than
writing a script to walk you through the installation process.


Cheers,

-- 
Onno Benschop

Connected via Optus B3 at S31°54'06" - E115°50'39" (Yokine, WA)
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Re: New Programs for Hardy?

[Anthony Bryan]

On Nov 14, 2007 4:19 AM, Conrad Knauer <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Since we're at the formative stages of Hardy I thought I'd start a
> thread about apps which might be good for inclusion in the default
> Ubuntu setup.

I'd like to suggest aria2, a CLI download utility with resuming and
segmented downloading.
Supported protocols are HTTP/HTTPS/FTP/BitTorrent/Metalink. From what
I understand, there will be official metalinks for Hardy ISOs.

http://aria2.sourceforge.net/

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Re: apt-cacher in main

[Scott Abbey]

Kevin Fries wrote:
> On Wed, 2007-11-14 at 11:38 -0500, Fabian Rodriguez wrote:
>> I also think this would be a good candidate to have on the LiveCD
>> installer and/or the Server CD installer images, as in many scenarios
>> CDs are used for a first install and then other PCs in the same LAN
>> could use that first install apt-cacher to save tremendously on
>> bandwidth - a common situation outside high-bandwidth areas.
> 
> I am not sure it needs to be moved. But, what would be totally cool is
> if the installer scanned the local network on install and configured
> apt-cacher in sources.list instead of the normal repos by default when
> if finds a server.  That would be a terrific usability upgrade.
> 
> But, since only one server needs it, is there an advantage to moving it
> from Universe?  It not like its in Multiverse which is turned off by
> default.  If I remember correctly, isn't Universe turned on by default
> on initial install?

I think the point of moving it is so that it receives official support from
Canonical. That way those on paid support contracts can still expect
assistance from Canonical when using the package. Canonical only provides
paid support for packages in main and restricted. Universe and multiverse
receive community support only.


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Re: IT8212 ATA RAID Controller device driver?

[Tony Koker]

Don't have time to read through it all right now, but looks to be right on.
On 7.10 I installed dmraid and it says no RAID disks, but I may need to
reboot and don't really have the time right this second to play further.
Wasn't planning on booting from these disks, anyway, but just using them as
the data disks they were under windows.
Thanks!

On Nov 14, 2007 11:35 AM, Phillip Susi <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Tony Koker wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> >Can anyone point me to an IT8212 ATA RAID Controller device
> > driver/module?  I've been poking around, and thought I'd seen it not too
> > long ago?
>
> See https://wiki.ubuntu.com/FakeRaidHowto
>
>


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What do I do with disturbing bug reports in Wine about system crashes?

[Scott Ritchie]

Fairly often, I'll get a bug report filed against Wine about something
that Wine shouldn't be able to cause - total keyboard deadlocks, frozen
screen, being unable to even ctrl-alt-backspace or ctrl-alt-f1, etc.

These are clearly not Wine bugs, but it's unclear to me where I should
refile them.  Wine's exposing a bug somewhere else (probably the driver
or X), but what should I do?

Thanks,
Scott Ritchie

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Re: What do I do with disturbing bug reports in Wine about system crashes?

[Bryan Haskins]

Just a thought, but maybe just categorize them on the wine tracker (those
from the wine tracker obviously) with something such as 'Outside Bug'
generically, or more specifically, if you can determine it 'Video Driver
bug', 'X bug' and so on. On Launchpad anything like that should presumably
be passed on where applicable to some driver tracker, or some-such, or
marked as invalid if it's beyond your reach to triage it. I mean you
shouldn't go out of your way to do research to triage and forward a
misplaced bug report. by the same token, it shouldn't just be written off
instantly either. I guess that's a long way to say that you should use your
own judgment. This isn't an official statement by any means, like I would
have the authority for that, heh, just some advice and thoughts from my past
triaging.

On Nov 14, 2007 5:55 PM, Scott Ritchie <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

> Fairly often, I'll get a bug report filed against Wine about something
> that Wine shouldn't be able to cause - total keyboard deadlocks, frozen
> screen, being unable to even ctrl-alt-backspace or ctrl-alt-f1, etc.
>
> These are clearly not Wine bugs, but it's unclear to me where I should
> refile them.  Wine's exposing a bug somewhere else (probably the driver
> or X), but what should I do?
>
> Thanks,
> Scott Ritchie
>
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Re: Our best foot forward

[Patrick]

Hi Onno and List

I am not sure I have made my intentions clear. First of all, Ubuntu's 
package management system is easier and less hazardous then a 
windoze-one-click-installer program, my helper script idea was just to 
focus on the configuration and if necessary, post installation 
commands(i.e sudo /etc/init.d/vsftpd start).

My helper script idea was not meant to eliminate wikis and online tutorials.

My difficulties last year with setting up an ftp server had nothing to 
do with bugs but my inability to climb the learning curve quickly enough.

Linux is such an amazing OS because you can do so much with it but this 
power comes at a price, power comes with complexity.

Frankly speaking I have tried my best to learn as much as I can about 
Linux but when I post to lists I always feel that the other list members 
are light years ahead of me.

I just started using Linux in 2005. I had/have no friends and no family 
members that ran Linux. I wonder if this is the case with most other 
Ubuntu users? I wonder if Ubuntu is spreading more by word of mouth, 
then anything else.

Everything I have learned, I have learned through the internet. I wasted 
30+ cds trying to burn a "bootable CD" or "an image" when I was just 
getting started. It was not until I bought a Linux CD that I found K3Bs 
"burn as ISO image". I went through 15+ distros before settling on 
Ubuntu. I wiped out windows with a dual boot and I killed Ubuntu logging 
in as root.

Am I an idiot? I would be the first to admit it but I do have some 
abilities. I have a successful business(although my take home pay is 
still low). I taught myself how to refurbish laboratory instruments and 
I am selling them to Universities all over the world. Most were 
originally worth tens of thousands of dollars and my recent project is a 
mass spectrometer that was worth just under a million dollar when it was 
new.

Really I am an idiot, I could write a three volume novel on all the 
stupid things I have done but I am not without abilities. Learning Linux 
has been an uphill battle the whole time and there are probably more 
people like me then there are like the people on this list. Although 
Linux is growing in popularity it is a slow burn. It is a great OS and 
it should be a raging fire by now. Vista sales are in the billions, it's 
just not right.

We need to put Our Best Foot Forward. People of varying levels of 
ability should be able to do more with less effort. My helper script 
would give someone the ability to make a "first pass" through a set up 
process very quickly. They could then read the online tutorials and man 
pages to improve their set up by making second and third passes through 
the script. The first pass must be painless.

Cheers, Mate-Patrick




Onno Benschop wrote:
> On 15/11/07 02:51, Patrick wrote:
>   
>> Hi Eoin and list
>>
>> I agree that shell scripts are not for beginners. Really I think Ubuntu 
>> is already really good for the beginners, although a different bred of 
>> OS , I don't see what is more difficult then let's say windoze. However 
>> for a beginner administrator, let's say someone who is trying to set up 
>> a small business network, an FTP server etc, it is a different story.
>>
>> Take me for example, I still would not call myself an expert but I have 
>> come a long way from last year. Last year I set up an FTP server(VSFTP) 
>> it took me 1-1.5 days. Now I can set one up in 15 minutes because I know 
>> what to do. I read through the online tutorials and I was instructed to 
>> type vi /etc/vsftpd.conf. I then had to learn how to use vi(which I 
>> hate). Then I had to figure out that the tutorial probably should have 
>> said sudo vi /etc/vsftpd.conf. To boot VSFTP was not my first choice 
>> there was another open source one that turned out to not be very good. 
>> I  was discouraged and then tried setting up Webmin which took more time 
>> to learn and in the end did not really do want I wanted it to do so I 
>> went back to manual editing.
>>
>> I have a small business. Things are gong well enough this year but last 
>> year was a real struggle. 1.5 days really hurt. I can't stand close 
>> source software but the better business move would have been to pay 
>> $100-200 on a closed source one click install windoze App.
>>
>> There is tons of great open source software out there but we have to 
>> lower the barrier to entry. We are fighting Billions of dollars and 
>> political influence, we can't just be as good as windoze we have to be a 
>> lot better to get noticed.
>>
>> If someone had a script like this for me it would have really helped:
>>
>> #!/bin/bash
>>
>> echo "we are going to install vsftpd"
>>
>> sudo apt-get install vsftpd
>>
>> echo "you will need to edit the following configuration file to get this 
>> working\
>> please change the listen to address to your ip\
>> if you want more then anonymous access please add a user name and file 
>> permissions
>>
>> sudo gedit /etc/vsftp.conf
>>
>>

Re: Our best foot forward

[Patrick]

I see where you are going with this and I will make a bug report if I 
encounter this sort of trouble again.

I hope I am not "beating this to death now" but I need to continue.

Being a dumbass I have another perspective to offer. Early on I 
encountered these post installation questions but I did not answer them 
correctly and of course I did not receive good results. Aside from a 
total package uninstall/reinstall I still do not know how to 
reinitialize these post installation scripts. These scripts assume too 
much user knowledge. I still feel that a script that could be called 
again and again with ease would be better and one that included helpful 
hints to get through the first pass would be best, granted that some of 
these post installation scripts have helpful tips. A script that could 
be copied and pasted might also provide an entire overview of the 
process so that the user would know exactly what was going on and would 
one day not need this crutch.

I am really going out on a limb here but does anyone think that a menu 
within Synaptic to reconfigure Apps would be useful? This might be 
difficult but a built-in repository of helper scripts that could be 
viewed or run might be helpful.

There could also be a section sorted by task not by program.

Again to recount the adventures of a fool, namely me, here is another 
experience.

I spent hours reading how to manually compile programs with Linux. 
Notice I said Linux not Ubuntu. I don't remember which distros the 
tutorials were using as examples but they were not Ubuntu. I spent hours 
and hours pulling out my hair trying to figure out why I could not 
compile in Ubuntu. Finally I found out that Ubuntu does not ship with 
the tools to compile software.

For example if the script repository had a title like:
Would you like to manually compile software?

and a script like this:

#! /bin/bash

echo "Ubuntu does not ship with all the tools you need to compile 
software, we need to install these tools"
Sudo apt-get install build-essential

echo "now you need to find your download directory and extract the tarball"
echo "you can simply right click on it and choose extract here"
echo "now cd to your new extracted directory in the terminal and type make"
echo "the script will search for the required dependencies, you must 
install all of them before you continue"

etc, etc, etc

A package manager cannot help with this sort of thing. People sometimes 
don't know why Totem does not work out-of-the-box. A helper script could 
explain this and point them to an outside source to download the require 
codecs separately. Again this is not something that the packaging people 
have overlooked but they are common problems. A solution is needed. I 
bet the community cold built such a repository of scripts quite quickly. 
I am unfamiliar with synaptic code and I am not sure how hard it would 
be to integrate these in-Patrick





Onno Benschop wrote:
> On 15/11/07 09:07, Patrick wrote:
>   
>> Hi Onno and List
>>
>> I am not sure I have made my intentions clear. First of all, Ubuntu's 
>> package management system is easier and less hazardous then a 
>> windoze-one-click-installer program, my helper script idea was just to 
>> focus on the configuration and if necessary, post installation 
>> commands(i.e sudo /etc/init.d/vsftpd start).
>>
>> My helper script idea was not meant to eliminate wikis and online tutorials.
>>   
>> 
> I think you may misunderstand the post installation scripts.
>
> Currently most don't ask any questions, but they have the ability to do
> that. In answering the questions prompted by the post install scripts,
> you're walking through the tutorial that the developer (or packager :)
> put together. There is a whole (mostly invisible) hierarchy of levels of
> prompting built into the package system today.
>
> So, my point still stands.
>
> If you have a package that "doesn't work out of the box", that's a
> likely candidate for a bug report.
>
> Just in case my meaning isn't clear. I'm not disagreeing with your
> assessment or commenting on your skill level. I'm attempting to point
> your frustration at the mechanisms in place already to leverage your
> input and benefit from them. Ultimately bug number 1 still needs to be
> closed.
>
>
> Cheers,
>
>   


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Re: Our best foot forward

[Onno Benschop]

On 15/11/07 09:07, Patrick wrote:
> Hi Onno and List
>
> I am not sure I have made my intentions clear. First of all, Ubuntu's 
> package management system is easier and less hazardous then a 
> windoze-one-click-installer program, my helper script idea was just to 
> focus on the configuration and if necessary, post installation 
> commands(i.e sudo /etc/init.d/vsftpd start).
>
> My helper script idea was not meant to eliminate wikis and online tutorials.
>   
I think you may misunderstand the post installation scripts.

Currently most don't ask any questions, but they have the ability to do
that. In answering the questions prompted by the post install scripts,
you're walking through the tutorial that the developer (or packager :)
put together. There is a whole (mostly invisible) hierarchy of levels of
prompting built into the package system today.

So, my point still stands.

If you have a package that "doesn't work out of the box", that's a
likely candidate for a bug report.

Just in case my meaning isn't clear. I'm not disagreeing with your
assessment or commenting on your skill level. I'm attempting to point
your frustration at the mechanisms in place already to leverage your
input and benefit from them. Ultimately bug number 1 still needs to be
closed.


Cheers,

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Re: Our best foot forward

[Onno Benschop]

All of what you write exists:

* A package that is not installed but run from the bash prompt is
  captured with a comment like "The program 'foobar' is currently
  not installed. You can install it by typing: sudo apt-get install
  foobar"

  This functionality should be installed by default (not sure from
  which version of Ubuntu), but if you don't have that
  functionality, then the command-not-found package will activate
  it: sudo apt-get install command-not-found

* You can view tasks in Synaptic by choosing Edit -> Mark Packages
  by Task...

* To reconfigure a package: sudo dpkg-reconfigure foobar, perhaps it
  would be useful to add this functionality to Synaptic.


Your 'compiling packages' example, while understandable, is in my
opinion misplaced. You would not consider this option in Windows or OSX
for the vast majority of end-users and even system administrators. That
you're using documentation for Linux and applying it to Ubuntu is akin
to using documentation for PalmOS and applying it to Symbian.

I'm not saying that you cannot compile stuff in Ubuntu, that is
obviously possible, but it's also possible on most other operating
systems. Many users coming from non-Debian based Linux environments come
with the 'baggage' of needing to compile things. That's not the
Debian-way, nor is it the Ubuntu-way for many reasons - too wide to go
into here right now.

So, again it comes back to documentation and education.

Personally I think this kind of conversation is healthy and useful
within Ubuntu. I cannot speak for others in this community, but your
comments are constructive and thoughtful and in my opinion you should
not be ashamed of your contributions. Ultimately the pilot of a 747
needed to fly solo for the first time. Said another way, to be
experienced requires experience.



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Re: Our best foot forward

[Patrick]

Hi Onno and list

I am beginning to  feel like I am becoming a pain in the butt. I don't 
mean to be, I just want to help. I don't seem to be able to explain 
myself very well.

I see what you are saying about mark by task and the dpkg-reconfigure 
command but this brings up two more "trains of thought".

First I am an intermediate user and I did not know of either of these 
facts. I can now manually edit configuration files without much effort 
but I did not know of either of these features when I was not able to. 
These features are not obvious to the new user and it is the new user 
that needs them.

The mark by task feature is nice but it is still package centric. It 
does not provide configuration assistance beyond what the packers included.

I have read through more then one rant on the internet about Totem.  I 
believe one of the ranters said something like
"whose job is it to explain this" referring to the modest set of codecs 
that come with it by default.

I have written several emails today on this topic. I am sorry if I have 
wasted  peoples valuable time with this thread. I guess I have not been 
able to express myself well.

Let me try one more time.


I think these topics are "package centric"
1)Question=I want to install a cd burning utility
Answer=Synaptic multi-media section or type in cd burning utility in 
Synaptic search bar.

2)Question=I want to install a LAMP server
Answer=Select mark by task in Synaptic and choose LAMP

I think these are "configuration centric"
3)Question=I want to configure my NFS server
Answer= manually edit configuration file or use dpkg-reconfigure -plow 
to launch configuration script.

4)Question=Why can't Totem play WMV files?
Answer= for legal reasons we can't install the codecs by default. You 
will need to install them manually elsewhere.

Synaptic can answer all the "package centric" questions but I don't see 
an easy solution for the new user for the configuration centric" 
questions. Having the dpkg-reconfigure option built into Synaptic would 
help a lot but it would not solve question #4.  A utility to provide 
answers and helper scripts for configuration issues  ad FAQs might be 
helpful. Somewhere facts such as Totem does not come with such and such 
codecs need to be expressed. There should be someplace simple for all of 
this to happen. It should not happen in the man pages and it would be 
nice if people did not have to search on the net for this information. I 
don't really know what to call it but perhaps a Q & A / interactive 
tutorial utility could provide quick guidance to new users. It could 
help them through these topics quickly and we could put our best foot 
forward.

Good night everyone, I'm going to bed-Patrick





Onno Benschop wrote:
> All of what you write exists:
>
> * A package that is not installed but run from the bash prompt is
>   captured with a comment like "The program 'foobar' is currently
>   not installed. You can install it by typing: sudo apt-get install
>   foobar"
>
>   This functionality should be installed by default (not sure from
>   which version of Ubuntu), but if you don't have that
>   functionality, then the command-not-found package will activate
>   it: sudo apt-get install command-not-found
>
> * You can view tasks in Synaptic by choosing Edit -> Mark Packages
>   by Task...
>
> * To reconfigure a package: sudo dpkg-reconfigure foobar, perhaps it
>   would be useful to add this functionality to Synaptic.
>
>
> Your 'compiling packages' example, while understandable, is in my
> opinion misplaced. You would not consider this option in Windows or OSX
> for the vast majority of end-users and even system administrators. That
> you're using documentation for Linux and applying it to Ubuntu is akin
> to using documentation for PalmOS and applying it to Symbian.
>
> I'm not saying that you cannot compile stuff in Ubuntu, that is
> obviously possible, but it's also possible on most other operating
> systems. Many users coming from non-Debian based Linux environments come
> with the 'baggage' of needing to compile things. That's not the
> Debian-way, nor is it the Ubuntu-way for many reasons - too wide to go
> into here right now.
>
> So, again it comes back to documentation and education.
>
> Personally I think this kind of conversation is healthy and useful
> within Ubuntu. I cannot speak for others in this community, but your
> comments are constructive and thoughtful and in my opinion you should
> not be ashamed of your contributions. Ultimately the pilot of a 747
> needed to fly solo for the first time. Said another way, to be
> experienced requires experience.
>
>
>
>   


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Re: Our best foot forward

[Emmet Hikory]

On 11/15/07, Sarah Hobbs wrote:
> How much of all this tutorial stuff is already in the man pages?

The manual pages contain vast amounts of detail, but I'm not sure
they provide the overview for some of the more general questions.
Further, I'm fairly certain that most complex tasks are not well
suited for man pages, as they often require several distinct steps,
with different tools (for which there are different manuals), for
which the user may need a higher-level guide.

For a standard configuration, a lot of the information from the
man pages is already encapsulated in default configurations,
maintainer scripts, menu entries, etc. (and it's a bug if it's not).
For a specific package (containing specific applications and man
pages), most of the detail information should predominantly be of
interest for special configurations, and no "tutorial" should be
required (although users of more complex programs may benefit from
reading additional program-specific documentation (which is, again,
rarely the man page)).

Further, as there is greater support for task- and tag- based
package management, many of the issues related to groups of packages
(e.g. LAMP, build-essential) can be addressed from the package
management tools.  Meta-information would belong in tag and task
descriptions, rather than in manpages, as there is not generally an
associated program for which the user needs a manual: rather the
requirement is for general information on the suite of applications.

For managed configuration / settings adjustment, it's a matter of
making these interfaces more prominent: most package-specific
documentation is targeted at the unusual configuration, and does not
suggest a simple reconfigure.  I wouldn't expect that additional
documentation would help much here, aside from a general effort to
insure that automated reconfiguration doesn't require knowledge of how
debconf works.

For those completely general questions (e.g. "Why doesn't my DVD
work?", "How do I use my new gadget with Ubuntu?", "What needs to be
done before I install QuickBooks?"), general documentation is useful,
for which help.ubuntu.com seems to be the right place.

Regarding tutorial scripts, I'm not sure that the provision of
small shell scripts to automate standard tasks is an ideal way to
address the issue of users not knowing how to do things.  Firstly, in
order for such scripts to be useful to accomplish tasks related to
packages not currently installed, they would need to be maintained
separately, and would be subject to version skew.  Secondly, in the
spirit of doing the right thing, the system should robustly handle as
many cases as possible, referring the remainder to documentation.  If
users are required to manually execute scripts to accomplish goals
they do not understand, this only adds an additional layer of
indirection, for which additional documentation may be required.

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Re: Our best foot forward

[Sarah Hobbs]

How much of all this tutorial stuff is already in the man pages?

Hobbsee

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