[Tagging] HDM presets and tagging revised and for review

[Brian Wolford]

Hello all,

The HDM (Humanitarian Data Model) presets that HOT uses in the field have
been revised to fit more into established OSM tagging practices as part of
the effort of starting up the new HOT project in Cap Haitien, Haiti. Please
feel free to review them and give input.

Please reference this wiki page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags#HDM_presets

And a very awesome and very usefull wiki formatted page of the presets can
be viewed here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags/HDM_preset

(It would be a cool idea to make a page like this for all presets)

Hosted on github here:
https://github.com/hotosm/presets/blob/master/HDM.xml

The presets can also be found in JOSM listed as "HDM Data Model for HOT
field surveys".

Please have any discussion about this tagging on this thread or on the wiki
Discussion pages.

Thanks,
-brian
worldwidewolford
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Re: [Tagging] Juice "restaurants"

[Brian Wolford]

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/cuisine=juice
>From humble beginnings...


On Tue, May 7, 2013 at 10:02 AM, Greg Troxel  wrote:

>
> Alexander Jones  writes:
>
> > What is the proper way to tag places that make and sell juice and fruit
> > smoothies? Examples in the U.S. include Jamba Juice and Orange Julius.
>
> I could call them amenity=cafe cuisine=juice, because they are not so
> different from a coffeeshop, except for the liquid type.
>
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[Tagging] tagging cannons

[Brian Wolford]

On behalf of Wedens of COSMHA-STM and talk-ht,

We would like to know if it is appropriate to tag historic cannons in old
military forts as:
historic=cannon
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/historic=cannon

Example picture:
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Citadelle_in_Haiti,_cannons.JPG

A+,
Brian
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[Tagging] how to tag professional schools

[Brian Wolford]

Was wondering if anybody knew the proper way to tag
professional/trade/vocational schools.

Specifically looking for auto repair school right now. But relevant also
for hair stylist school, HVAC repair school, ect... Even dance and music
schools.

Found this proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Trade_school

Which looked promising until checking its usage:
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=trade_school


Any body know of a better or more established way?


Mesi anpil,
Brian and Evens 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging cannons

[Brian Wolford]

Follow up.

If tagging a small area that has, say, 8 cannons, but not wanting to map
them individually. What is the best tag to use to indicate number of
cannons there?

capacity=* doesn't seem right. Is there something like count=*?

Mesi,
b



2013/5/31 René Kirchhoff 

> Yes! :)
>
> see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Historische_Objekte#Kanone
>
>
> http://geschichtskarten.openstreetmap.de/historische_objekte/?zoom=15&lat=53.89357&lon=11.46009&layers=BFTT&detail=3&select=n1132388089
>
> Gruß René
>
> *
> » Check the Monuments! «*
> Viele der als historic=monument erfassten Objekte sind in Wirklichkeit
> kein Monument. Sie wurden mangels passender Tags oder aus Unkenntnis als
> Monument erfaßt. Die Karte "CheckTheMonuments" will bei der Korrektur
> unterstützen, weitere Details im Wiki:
> Wiki: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/CheckTheMonuments
> Karte: http://geschichtskarten.openstreetmap.de/monuments/
>
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Re: [Tagging] "State of repair" tag

[Brian Wolford]

> In no case do we want the feature to be hidden from rendering: it's still
a mappable object.  The goal is quite the opposite: to highlight the
drinking water sources in need of repair.

If you are going to highlight things then it seems like you would be
creating a specific rendering already.
And if you are creating a specific rendering then you can have the
disused/abandoned objects render not hidden, but highlighted.

>
> ---
> How would we best represent a partially functional resource?
> Or something which was broken when last observed, but where any repair
schedule is unknown?
>
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Re: [Tagging] "State of repair" tag

[Brian Wolford]

>  I've just found the HOT tag 
> 'operational_status
>> '
>> This addresses a similar need, but it does not have a wiki page.
>>
>>
For discussion on "operational_status":
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags/operational_status

Found from here:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags#Discussions



>  How about:
>>
>> operational_status=broken  (usable for it intended purpose)
>> operational_status=needs repair (usable, but impaired)
>> operational_status=open(in good state of repair)
>> operational_status:note=  (human readable elaboration on the
>> operational status)
>>
>>
>
> -1, IMHO this is flawed, as it requires from everybody to check for this
> tag: if you make a map and ignore this tag you will put something not
> working on the map as if it was working. Imagine amenity=hospital,
> operational_status=broken or highway=bridge, operational_status=broken
>
> This approach has the same problem as the tags disused, abandoned, status,
> ruins, construction, ... better use a prefix or suffix to avoid
> misinterpretation. See the wiki for the mentioned tags to learn more.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

>
> you can have pits with flush or without so this modification doesn't work.
> What are the benefits of the changes you propose?
>
> I think it is referring to the "front-end" or "user-experience" of the
toilet. In which case it wouldn't be both flush or pit, flush being water
carries it away, and pit being a drop directly into a stationary container.
The only "flush and pit" toilet I can think of would be a blackwater
system. Which I think could use something like toilets:method or
toilets:technology or anything else to define blackwater, septic, sewer,
ect...
So for example I would think of tagging a blackwater system like:

*amenity=toilets*
*toilets:type=flush*
*toilets:method=blackwater*

*composting=yes*


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blackwater_(waste)


I prefer your alternative to the proposal page, although I think the
> ":type" is unnecessary, and toilets=pit would be better.
>

toilets=yes is already being used with amenity=* or shop=* to tag toilets
on premises. I don't know if this creates a conflict.


+1 for this alternative

Best,
Brian
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

>
> +1 for flush being water carrying it away, but I thought pit would refer
> to a hole in the "ground" (or floor, i.e. a place where you stand to do
> your business) as opposed to a seat, but now I understand you see this as
> opposed to being attached to the sewers?
>

Not necessarily sewers, but that water carries the waste away. Blackwater
and septic are flush w/o sewer connection.


>  IMHO the most important "front-end" experience is the distinction between
> standing and being seated (when it comes to toilet typology).
>

Good point.
What if it looked something like:

toilets=[yes/seated/standing/no]
toilets:type=[flush/pit/chemical/bucket]
toilets:method=[sewer/septic/blackwater/(various-types-of-composting)/(proper-word-for-dig-a-new-hole-when-full)/(emptied-by-truck)/user
defined,...]

Thoughts?
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:06 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

> Well, you also have the old-style outhouse, where you have a small
> building, including a seat, located above a pit which receives the waste.
> The temporary latrines used at construction sites are much the same, except
> that the "pit" is the bottom portion of the latrine, and the whole thing is
> hauled away to be emptied. I have seen parks where these "temporary"
> portable latrines are in year-round use, to spare the expense of having to
> install water supply pipes and sewers.
>

"Port-a-Potties" would be "chemical" under this scheme. I think the big
difference between "pit" and "bucket" is that a pit would be stationary
where the container that receives the waste for bucket is removed and
dumped somewhere.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chemical_toilet

Chemical toilets are often permanent features in displaced-person camps
(speaking for Haiti), as well.
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

This is great.
One note on composing. Compost toilets can be both fixed location pits,
and buckets. I'm familiar with systems where buckets (5 to 40 gallons) are
filled with waste and then dumped on a local compost or picked up by a
third party and brought to a human waste composing center.

I would say toilets:waste=flush,pitlatrine,bucket. And then add the
established composting=yes tag to tag as composting. This also covers flush
composters.

I would also like to see chemical toilets brought back in somehow. They are
important WASH objects in camp mapping.
On Jun 20, 2013 12:47 PM, "Bryce Nesbitt"  wrote:

> Ok, good points. There are at least three major "front end" experiences,
> none of which are exclusive at any location:
>
>1. Squat
>2. Sit
>3. Urinal
>
> And one fairly critical front-end refinement related to wiping:
>
>1. Toilet paper provided.
>2. BYOP (Bring your own paper if you want it)
>3. Rag provided (you wash it out yourself)
>
>
>
> --
>
> Major back-end experiences include:
>
>1. Flush (waste is carried away after each use)
>2. Pit (waste remains on site)
>
> But it divides down more than that:
>
>1. Pits
>   1. unlined pits (waste drops into a hole -- the most common type.
>When full, a new hole is dug nearby.)
>   2. lined pits  (waste drops into a vault which is periodically
>   pumped out)
>   3. composting (waste drops into an on-site composting vault, with
>   potential for reduced odor)
>   4. chemical (a lined vault is filled with a chemical.  common on
>   portable toilets).
>   5. bucket (just a bucket someone has to remove periodically).
>2. Flush
>   1. Water flushing (clean water is used to help remove waste).
>   2. Waterless flushing (e.g. Water Free Technolgies)
>
> There's also a squat/sit combo just to jazz things up:
> (See http://www.anorak.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/Pedestal-squat-toilet.jpg
>  )
>
> [image: Inline image 1]
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> But the important distinctions may be less.  I'd be happy with no more
> than three categories:
>
>- Flush toilet
>- Open pits (where you see the waste)
>- Composting (where the waste is continually treated, and often not
>apparent)
>
>
> Thus it might be:
>
> toilets=yes  or amenity=toilets
> toilets:position=(squat,seat,urinal)
> toilets:waste=[flush,pitlatrine,composting,bucket]
> toilets:paper=no
> fee=[yes,no]
>
> Where a multiple value of "toilets:position=seat;urinal" would be most
> common in Western countries.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

I don't see the relevant difference, then, between an onsite compost toilet
and a pit, to the toilet experience.They are both an open drop where you
can see the waste. I think it's better to use composting= for designating
if its composting and how. Especially since it can or cannot apply to
multiple types. And many people have an interest in composting objects.

I would replace composting with chemical in the toilet:vault options. Or
maybe "portable" is a better option.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Portable_toilet

toilets:vault <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:toilets:type>=[flush,
pit <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:pitlatrine>,bucket,portable]

I like portable better than chemical. I think there is a big difference
between the other types of toilets and a portable one. And this distinction
is a very important one when mapping sanitation objects for humanitarian
use. So it is better it gets  designated and documented in a proper way.

+1 on rendering not being able to pick up more than 2 or 3 types, or
needing to. In disclosure, I am influenced by the complexity of sanitation
objects I have had to map with HOT and other orgs, but it is useful and
needed info.


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 2:13 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> To me a bucket is a bucket. What happens *outside the toilet* is of no
> relevance to the toilet experience.
>
> The use of chemicals is, however, relevant.   Chemically sensitive people
> for example may avoid chemical toilets of any style.
> Does that have to be a tag of its own?
>
> toilets <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Toilets>=yes
> *toilets:chemical*=[yes,no]
> toilets:vault <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:toilets:type>
> =[flush,vault,pit <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:pitlatrine>
> ,bucket,composting]
> toilets:positions=[urinal,seat,squat]
> toilets:wheelchair <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wheelchair>
> =[yes,limited,designated,no]
> drinking_water <http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:drinking_water>=yes
> fee=no
>
> That said, I can't see rendering engines using more than two icons:
> "toilet" and some form of "outhouse".
> All our composting and chemical dreams aside, those are the two most
> important subdivisions.
>
>
> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:13 AM, Brian Wolford <
> worldwidewolf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> This is great.
>> One note on composing. Compost toilets can be both fixed location pits,
>> and buckets. I'm familiar with systems where buckets (5 to 40 gallons) are
>> filled with waste and then dumped on a local compost or picked up by a
>> third party and brought to a human waste composing center.
>>
>> I would say toilets:waste=flush,pitlatrine,bucket. And then add the
>> established composting=yes tag to tag as composting. This also covers flush
>> composters.
>>
>> I would also like to see chemical toilets brought back in somehow. They
>> are important WASH objects in camp mapping.
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Reviving "pitlatrine" proposal from 2011

[Brian Wolford]

Composting:
What's catching me up is that that system is just _one_ type of composting
toilet. There are many types; dry (w/o urine), simple (w/ urine),
vermicompost(worms), electric(vent fan and stirrer), and blackwater for
example. And they can be presented in different ways, to operate like
modern toilets or not. Many compost-privies on hiking trails can run the
spectrum on type of composting being used. And many methods are used in
other low-resource environments. This is why I think it would be better to
tag composting separately and leave it available for further definition.
Maybe this is a proposal I should begin to work on.
http://www.oursoil.org/what-we-do/toilets/models/

Also, the stink-factor I think mainly relies on maintenance and up-keep. A
pit toilet does not have to any more stinky than a composter as long as
proper cover material is still used, and I've seem some composters that are
not properly kept and would rank up with the worst toilets to visit.

Haha, toilet:output=humanure.

For what seem to be clear categories:
flush, sealed pit, unsealed pit, removable/"batch" container

And then we also seem to need to clarify the port-a-potty.

And we also need to tag for two different reasons, 1) the
user experience and 2) analysis by sanitation experts.


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 3:39 PM, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:

> On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 11:53 AM, Brian Wolford <
> worldwidewolf...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> I don't see the relevant difference, then, between an onsite compost
>> toilet and a pit, to the toilet experience.They are both an open drop where
>> you can see the waste.
>>
>
>  Perhaps the user experience difference is better captured in a out-of-osm
> voting system about how "stinky" a toilet is.
>
> We seem to agree that "water flush toilet" is a clear category.  But
> "pits" get murkier: chemical vs. no, vault vs. unlined pit,
> composting vs. pile of waste, portable bucket vs. permanent.
>
> A pit has a pile of human waste at the bottom.
> A chemical toilet drops the same waste into a liquid chemical.
> A composting toilet the majority of the waste is undergoing composition.
>  These all smell *completely* different.
>
> http://www.energyvanguard.com/blog-building-science-HERS-BPI/bid/47951/Won-t-That-Stink-Living-in-a-Green-Home-with-a-Composting-Toilet
>
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Re: [Tagging] amenity=toilets / pitlatrine=yes

[Brian Wolford]

This is great Bryce, thanks.



> > male=yes/no for/tagging a men-only entrance=yes./
> > female=yes/no for  /tagging a female-only entrance=yes./
>
> I miss:
> unisex=yes/no
> fee=*
>

male=yes/no, female=yes/no, and unisex=yes/no are all tags with decent
usage and documentation and support their usage.


>
> composting=yes
>
>  I am working on what would be the possible values for human waste
composting and will work on refining this.
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Re: [Tagging] RFC: wheelchair:toilets=yes/no

[Brian Wolford]

I too prefer toilets:wheelchair=*


On Thu, Jun 20, 2013 at 10:45 AM, fly  wrote:

> On 17.06.2013 23:10, Holger Dieterich wrote:
> > Hi,
> >
> > here's the request for comments on my first proposal:
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/wheelchair:toilet
> >
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/wheelchair:toilets
> >
> > Please give me feedback.
>
> Still think we should use toilets:wheelchair=* to get it in common with
> amenity=toilets and toilets=*.
>
> fly
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Juice "restaurants"

[Brian Wolford // HOT]

http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/name=Jamba%20Juice
Right now there is a minor majority given to amenity=fast_food over cafe
for the worlds Jamba Juices.

Is the argument out there that juice and smoothies should be considered
food? Walk up, order at the counter food or drinks?


Perhaps going with fast_food, defining in cuisine, and using a seating=*
tag? Or should there be a separate tag for only food counters w/o seating
or a personal building?  Is it important to identify "fast_drinks" from
"fast_food" besides with the cuisine=* tag?

Brian


On Wed, May 8, 2013 at 8:51 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
wrote:

>
>
>
> 2013/5/8 Jaakko Helleranta.com 
>
> And what should "cafes without seats" be tagged as then?
>> amenity=fast_drinks
>> amenity=cafe_bar
>> Or something else?
>>
>>
>
> what is a cafe without seats? A bar? A drink booth / kiosk? You should tag
> it as what it is.
> The wiki says: "amenity =*
> cafe* is for a generally informal place with sit-down facilities selling
> beverages and light meals and/or snacks."
> not sure what a formal cafe should be tagged, and I honestly see no need
> to reduce the usage to "informal places", maybe we should change that?
> Regarding the seating requirement I'd keep it.
>
> cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Fast Food Restaurants

[Brian Wolford // HOT]

I often differentiate fast_food as "counter service" and restaurant as "sit
down with a menu and order from a waiter" service.


On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 7:04 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> I'd go with the amenity=fast_food bit, too.  Restaurants are a little
> higher class, Waffle House would be an edge case but I'd be inclined to
> call that a restaurant (even if it tends to be faster than McDo's).
>
>
> On Tue, May 28, 2013 at 5:52 PM, Richard Welty wrote:
>
>> On 5/28/13 6:19 PM, Tac Tacelosky wrote:
>>
>>> name=Subway
>>> amenity=restaurant
>>> cuisine=fast_food
>>>
>>> OR
>>>
>>> name=Subway
>>> amenity=fast_food
>>> cuisine=sandwiches
>>>
>>>  the second one is what you would get with a JOSM
>> preset so that's the way i've always entered them.
>> the JOSM preset does give sandwich, not sandwiches
>> for cuisine
>>
>> and the case (all lower case) and the _ are necessary
>> as that's what is recognized by all the data consumers.
>> you can, of course, be creative and do whatever you
>> want, but if you want it to be effective, used the
>> standard tagging.
>>
>> richard
>>
>>
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Fast Food Restaurants

[Brian Wolford // HOT]

Hehe. As a former Panera employee I would say that the food is indeed
shipped in bulk in factory fashion. (frozen gallon bag of soup anyone?) ;-)

For me Panera would be fast_food or cafe, depending on the mappers
inclination.
On May 28, 2013 7:22 PM, "Greg Troxel"  wrote:

>
> "Brian Wolford // HOT"  writes:
>
> > I often differentiate fast_food as "counter service" and restaurant as
> "sit
> > down with a menu and order from a waiter" service.
>
> I basically agree, but there's also an intermediate "order at counter,
> have someone bring it to you".  But the key point (here I'm veering into
> subjective, I know) is that fast_food implies that the food may be
> prepared in advance of you asking for it, generally is shipped in bulk
> to the restaurant, and is looked down on as factory food.  If you order
> at a counter at a non-chain and they use identifiable ingredients and
> cook in ways someone born in 1880 would find respectable, it's probably
> "cafe", even if it's fast.
>
> The really difficult case is Panera
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] New childcare proposal

[Brian Wolford // Humanitarian OpenStreetMap Team]

On Tue, Apr 16, 2013 at 11:13 PM, malenki  wrote:

> Am Tue, 16 Apr 2013 23:16:39 +0200
> schrieb def onion :
>
> > I kindly request your comments about this proposal ->
> > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/childcare2.0
>
> My first thought:
> What about orphanages and facilities alike?
>

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social_facility
currently handled as:
social_facility=group_home
social_facility:for=orphan

Regards
> malenki
>
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