Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms
> yes, but motorway is an exception because it is usually defined by signs > rather than characteristics (e.g. if the signs are missing but it looks and > feels like, we use motorroad=yes in some countries) Iknow you said 'usually' but this sounds like a very European perspective to me. We have no such distinction in the US. I've learned on this project to be quite careful about projecting what we think to be a normal structure onto other locations in the world. In the US it's a motorway if it's physically constructed like one, and there's many edge cases that we scratch our heads on. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms
But "freeway" is de facto equivalent of motorway, right? Regards, Illia. Brian M. Sperlongano : > > yes, but motorway is an exception because it is usually defined by signs >> rather than characteristics (e.g. if the signs are missing but it looks and >> feels like, we use motorroad=yes in some countries) > > > Iknow you said 'usually' but this sounds like a very European perspective > to me. We have no such distinction in the US. I've learned on this project > to be quite careful about projecting what we think to be a normal structure > onto other locations in the world. In the US it's a motorway if it's > physically constructed like one, and there's many edge cases that we > scratch our heads on. > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms
On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, 8:08 AM Illia Marchenko wrote: > But "freeway" is de facto equivalent of motorway, right? > Freeway is a colloquial term that's only used in some parts of the country and only signed as such in some states and often inconsistently. I assure you that the on the ground situation is far more complicated. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms
"Brian M. Sperlongano" writes: > On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, 8:08 AM Illia Marchenko > wrote: > >> But "freeway" is de facto equivalent of motorway, right? >> > > Freeway is a colloquial term that's only used in some parts of the country > and only signed as such in some states and often inconsistently. I assure > you that the on the ground situation is far more complicated. Agreed. When someone says that something is a "freeway", there is no basis to be sure what kind of physical road it is. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms
In fact, in my little corner of the country, the term we would use for this is "highway" and in other places "expressway" means the same thing, which is hopelessly confusing because these are also OSM keys with different meanings from the colloquial terminology. On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, 8:28 AM Greg Troxel wrote: > "Brian M. Sperlongano" writes: > > > On Thu, Jun 22, 2023, 8:08 AM Illia Marchenko < > illiamarchenk...@gmail.com> > > wrote: > > > >> But "freeway" is de facto equivalent of motorway, right? > >> > > > > Freeway is a colloquial term that's only used in some parts of the > country > > and only signed as such in some states and often inconsistently. I assure > > you that the on the ground situation is far more complicated. > > Agreed. When someone says that something is a "freeway", there is no > basis to be sure what kind of physical road it is. > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms
Martin Koppenhoefer writes: > sent from a phone > >> On 21 Jun 2023, at 15:52, Greg Troxel wrote: >> >> It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop >> that sells whatever the local law means by firearms". This is a >> general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect >> mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language. > > I am not sure I can subscribe to this. Generally our tags are used > when the thing meets the local expectations of “such thing”, e.g. an > amenity=cafe or amenity=pub in England is probably different from > places with such a tag in Germany. Or a shop=bakery in England will > not necessarily sell the same kind of bread than one in France. Of course it won't have the same kind of bread. But it will still be a shop that sells primarily things that have been baked, pastry and bread. Suppose in some other country, bakery is a term that means a shop that primarly sells sausages. We wouldn't say that this should be amenity=bakery. I think it is > There is a point where the differences are so big that we decide to > introduce a new tag (or subtag), but in a case like the arms shop I > believe the most likely answer for OpenStreetMap is actually "a shop > that sells whatever the local law means by firearms", If we pivot to shop=gun, then we have a broader category, and we don't need to care about law. With your definition, a shop in my state that sells rifles only would not be shop=firearms because under local law "firearm" means "handgun". Note that it's odd to worry about law, and it's wrong to let that drive tagging which should be independent of government. Normally shop=foo defines a concept and it applies whether or not there are any laws about foos. > just like a > highway=motorway is “a highway that the local law means by motorway”. I don't think that's true at all. highway=motorway is a road that has multiple lanes is limited access has not at-grade intersections with the usual "tiny violation doesn't disqualify" caveats. The word "motorway" is just not used in the US. Not by people, not in law, that I've ever seen. The formal terms are "limited access highway", which is close but does not require multiple travel lanes. And then there is "Interstate highway" which is a route signing thing, which has associated construction standards. But something can be an Interstate without meeting them, very very rarely (I hear this about Alaska). The whole point of the map is to be used, and for that to be sane, we need consistent semantics across all countries. That means not aligning to local words exactly, and certainly not to legal definitions, which are arbitrary and sometimes bizarre. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms
Jun 22, 2023, 14:46 by g...@lexort.com: > Martin Koppenhoefer writes: > >> sent from a phone >> >>> On 21 Jun 2023, at 15:52, Greg Troxel wrote: >>> >>> It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop >>> that sells whatever the local law means by firearms". This is a >>> general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect >>> mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language. >>> >> >> I am not sure I can subscribe to this. Generally our tags are used >> when the thing meets the local expectations of “such thing”, e.g. an >> amenity=cafe or amenity=pub in England is probably different from >> places with such a tag in Germany. Or a shop=bakery in England will >> not necessarily sell the same kind of bread than one in France. >> > > Of course it won't have the same kind of bread. But it will still be a > shop that sells primarily things that have been baked, pastry and bread. > > Suppose in some other country, bakery is a term that means a shop that > primarly sells sausages. We wouldn't say that this should be > amenity=bakery. > And this is not merely theoretical! word "bar" in Polish does not mean the same as in English and has much wider meaning range. See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_mleczny See https://pl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bar_(plac%C3%B3wka_gastronomiczna) Place selling https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Bar_mleczny_Kalina,_Poznan,_pomidorowka,_watrobka.jpg as typical thing is not amenity=bar even if it is locally called "bar". ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] shop=gun shop=guns shop=weapons shop=firearms
Jun 21, 2023, 15:51 by g...@lexort.com: > It is absolutely the wrong thing to say that shop=firearms means "a shop > that sells whatever the local law means by firearms". This is a > general principle in OSM that we define something and then expect > mappers to use the OSM definition, not local language. > Though if some specific term is primarily legal term and has crazy definitions varying across world - then using a different term is a better idea, if such term is available and is less confusing. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
