Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

3 paź 2020, 02:44 od frede...@remote.org:

> Hi,
>
> On 10/2/20 19:56, Wieland Kestler wrote:
>
>> I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that
>> in front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of
>> „selfmadeness“ does not matter.
>>
>
> We are not a business directory but a geo database. We map what exists,
> and not (or at least not primarily) what services might be offered. If
> there is a residential house and every now and then the owner puts out a
> table in front and sells bread, then I would say we shouldn't map that
> at all. (Map the house, yes, but not map the fact that a resident bakes
> bread occasionally.) In order to be mapped in OSM, it needs to have a
> physical manifestation - at the very least, a sign, or more desirably
> some structure that can be recognised as a shop even while not in use.
>
And I would say that it is perfectly fine
to map shops that are gone while not
in use.

For example food truck that arrives
every night at the same location
(OK, except holidays) seems perfectly
mappable to me.

Similarly, sellers of vegetables, herbs,
pottery, baskets and whatever else in
many cases are present only during day
and disappear without trace in off hours.

I have no problem with mapping them.
See my street_vendor=yes tag idea to 
indicate this state.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Alan Mackie]

This seems to me to be a relative of market stalls. Smaller concerns that
are 'staffed' but usually have very focussed or limited stock. Part way
between a fullblown store and a vending machine, you would not expect to
see the facilities you might get in a "proper" shop or as many payment
means (though this depends on location).

To me these seem distinct enough to permit special tagging. Persistent
vendors within otherwise changing marketplaces might also be worth
highlighting for some users. Dedicated vendor tagging could then be shared
across all locations they (repeatedly) appear?

I think the closest we have for this sort of thing is shop=kiosk or
building=kiosk but this describes the physical setup more than the way
they're run.

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 10:40, Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> 3 paź 2020, 02:44 od frede...@remote.org:
>
> Hi,
>
> On 10/2/20 19:56, Wieland Kestler wrote:
>
> I agree absolutely that somone who makes bread by itself and sells that
> in front of its house, we should tag it by shop=bakery. So the grade of
> „selfmadeness“ does not matter.
>
>
> We are not a business directory but a geo database. We map what exists,
> and not (or at least not primarily) what services might be offered. If
> there is a residential house and every now and then the owner puts out a
> table in front and sells bread, then I would say we shouldn't map that
> at all. (Map the house, yes, but not map the fact that a resident bakes
> bread occasionally.) In order to be mapped in OSM, it needs to have a
> physical manifestation - at the very least, a sign, or more desirably
> some structure that can be recognised as a shop even while not in use.
>
> And I would say that it is perfectly fine
> to map shops that are gone while not
> in use.
>
> For example food truck that arrives
> every night at the same location
> (OK, except holidays) seems perfectly
> mappable to me.
>
> Similarly, sellers of vegetables, herbs,
> pottery, baskets and whatever else in
> many cases are present only during day
> and disappear without trace in off hours.
>
> I have no problem with mapping them.
>
> See my street_vendor=yes tag idea to
> indicate this state.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting suspended - (funeral hall=*)

[wolle68]

I have suspended the voting, because there - finally - is a real 
discussion.


Am 02.10.2020 18:38 schrieb woll...@posteo.de:

Dear list,

Please vote on the following proposal:

A building or room for funeral ceremonies ancillary to a funeral
directors shop or a crematorium (subtag)

Proposal page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/funeral_hall%3D*
Discussion page:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Proposed_features/funeral_hall%3D*

Thanks!

Vollis

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 2. Oct 2020, at 20:28, stevea  wrote:
> 
> The term "direct_marketing" is used in various dialects of English around the 
> world as meaning something wholly different than your proposed usage here.


even in German it is used for a kind of advertising (sending “individual 
letters”)
https://de.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Direktmarketing


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 3. Oct 2020, at 12:15, Alan Mackie  wrote:
> 
> This seems to me to be a relative of market stalls. Smaller concerns that are 
> 'staffed' but usually have very focussed or limited stock.


+1, with possibly varying merchandise according to the season or other factors.

shop=* seems ok for me. Maybe “game” would be ok as value.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 13:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> shop=* seems ok for me.


And for me.  There are "formal" shops which open only 2 days a week.  Or
have limited hours.  Or surly staff.  You go there and buy stuff, it's a
shop.


> Maybe “game” would be ok as value.
>

I think not.  Too easy to confuse "game" and "games."  Better to use
shop=butcher + produce=game.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Peter Elderson]

I think for tagging it should be more than the occasional road-side sale?

Best, Peter Elderson


Op za 3 okt. 2020 om 14:38 schreef Paul Allen :

> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 13:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> shop=* seems ok for me.
>
>
> And for me.  There are "formal" shops which open only 2 days a week.  Or
> have limited hours.  Or surly staff.  You go there and buy stuff, it's a
> shop.
>
>
>> Maybe “game” would be ok as value.
>>
>
> I think not.  Too easy to confuse "game" and "games."  Better to use
> shop=butcher + produce=game.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 15:05, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> I think for tagging it should be more than the occasional road-side sale?
>

I think that would depend upon what you mean by "occasional."  We
have opening_hours to deal with that.

More important is if there is a sign, or newspaper advertisement, or
or a website, or something like that.  Social media is something I
wouldn't take as confirmation without checking as some of those
are used by people who are operating in a black economy and
wouldn't want to appear on a map in case tax or welfare
authorities spotted it (such people are willing to gamble on
not being spotted in social media, which seems foolish to
me).

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Sa., 3. Okt. 2020 um 14:38 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 13:22, Martin Koppenhoefer 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> shop=* seems ok for me.
>
>
> And for me.  There are "formal" shops which open only 2 days a week.  Or
> have limited hours.  Or surly staff.  You go there and buy stuff, it's a
> shop.
>
>
>> Maybe “game” would be ok as value.
>>
>
> I think not.  Too easy to confuse "game" and "games."  Better to use
> shop=butcher + produce=game.
>


agreed that "game" would likely lead to problems.  Technically, I am not
sure these places the OP is asking about are "butchers".

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 16:45, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> agreed that "game" would likely lead to problems.  Technically, I am not
> sure these places the OP is asking about are "butchers".
>

In British English, they are butchers.  And, in British English, a
butcher's shop
sells fresh cuts of meat.  It may also prepare the cuts from whole
carcasses,
it may even slaughter animals, but primarily a butcher's shop sells fresh
cuts
of meat.

In this context, game is fresh.  It's not tinned, frozen, smoked or
otherwise
preserved.  I have a vague recollection hygiene laws in the past couple of
years have greatly reduced (or maybe eliminated) the selling of game in
the UK, but prior to that a butcher's would be the place to buy it.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:39, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> More important is if there is a sign,
>

Hand-painted signs saying "Horse manure", "Avo's", "Firewood", "Eggs" & so
on good enough?

We see lot's of them whenever we go for a drive in the country, & even the
occasional one in town!

shop=farm_gate would work for those stalls set up literally at the farm's
front gate, but not sure about the ones in town such as
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0794558,153.4353269,3a,44.3y,353.08h,84.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srvTirWlBxaboKXGY_z4YiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
(Sorry, there's a bus in the way! but the sign says "Horse manure for
sale")
or
https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0830057,153.4348792,3a,19.6y,207.92h,79.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stYPeGpJj91C6jw_hQGFTZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Peter Elderson]

Is it private sale?

Vr gr Peter Elderson


Op za 3 okt. 2020 om 23:37 schreef Graeme Fitzpatrick :

>
>
>
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:39, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> More important is if there is a sign,
>>
>
> Hand-painted signs saying "Horse manure", "Avo's", "Firewood", "Eggs" & so
> on good enough?
>
> We see lot's of them whenever we go for a drive in the country, & even the
> occasional one in town!
>
> shop=farm_gate would work for those stalls set up literally at the farm's
> front gate, but not sure about the ones in town such as
>
> https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0794558,153.4353269,3a,44.3y,353.08h,84.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srvTirWlBxaboKXGY_z4YiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
> (Sorry, there's a bus in the way! but the sign says "Horse manure for
> sale")
> or
>
> https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0830057,153.4348792,3a,19.6y,207.92h,79.69t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1stYPeGpJj91C6jw_hQGFTZA!2e0!7i13312!8i6656?hl=en
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 22:37, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:39, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> More important is if there is a sign,
>>
>
> Hand-painted signs saying "Horse manure", "Avo's", "Firewood", "Eggs" & so
> on good enough?
>

More than good enough for me.  It's verifiable, so ought to be good enough
for
anybody else.  I'm interested in cheap test equipment, are the Avos old or
new? :)

>
> shop=farm_gate would work for those stalls set up literally at the farm's
> front gate, but not sure about the ones in town such as
>

I'd leave it as shop=farm, otherwise we'll end up with
shop=farm_second_pigysty on the left.  It's a shop at a farm, the position
of the node indicates where it is.

https://www.google.com.au/maps/@-28.0794558,153.4353269,3a,44.3y,353.08h,84.13t/data=!3m6!1e1!3m4!1srvTirWlBxaboKXGY_z4YiQ!2e0!7i16384!8i8192?hl=en
> (Sorry, there's a bus in the way! but the sign says "Horse manure for
> sale")
>

Unless that's the frontage to the land where the produce it is selling is
grown,
it's just a small shop not a farm shop.  The fact that a shop is selling
something
produced on a farm doesn't make it a farm shop (otherwise a greengrocer
would be
a farm shop).  A farm shop is on the grounds where the produce is grown.
It's
stretching things if the shop is attached to a private house and the
produce is
grown in the garden, but I suppose it depends on the side of the garden.  We
don't have a shop=small_garden.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[stevea]

I'm glad someone mentioned these, they are common and have been here for 
decades up and down California.  Like food trucks, they come and go with 
frequent irregularity.  Sometimes they are more-permanent, sometimes they are 
ephemeral.

> On Oct 3, 2020, at 2:35 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
and
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:39, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> More important is if there is a sign,
> 
> Hand-painted signs saying "Horse manure", "Avo's", "Firewood", "Eggs" & so on 
> good enough? 
> 
> We see lot's of them whenever we go for a drive in the country, & even the 
> occasional one in town!

especially on higher-speed primary or trunk highways in rural farming country 
as you'll get one, two or three signs:  "1/2 mile ahead, fresh apples, stone 
fruits and pies!" with cheerful graphics of cherries and baked goods.  
shop=farm_stand, is what I'd like to tag, but I haven't done an OT query or 
taginfo.  Sometimes it's a pickup truck with fruit boxes or someone out of the 
trunk (boot) of their car or a "go through the door, can I get you another cup 
of coffee with that (honey)?" sort of place.

If it's the latter (might be a full-blown "diner" restaurant, sometimes called 
a "road house") or it might be a simple "get hot water for your tea from the 
pump thermos, and yes we do serve pie, but only to go" kind of place. Those are 
different than the sort of transient (maybe there, maybe not) out-of-a-truck or 
farm wagon kind of thing.  There is also whether the farm is right next to the 
stand, which is sometimes true but more often not (and it's all-run-together, 
more permanent).  I agree with Paul that shop=farm fits these, that's how I 
tagthe ones that are local (iIrc, I haven't been comprehensive in my search).

We have those kinds of places around here with berries in the summer (cute 
signs say "U-Pick"), squashes in the autumn.  Along rural, farming highways 
between towns and cities.  They exist.

I would never say direct_marketing about these.  I might say shop=farm_stand if 
I were being "local vernacular," what we call them here, yet I think the 
more-permanent-ones-associated-with-the-farm-right-here are shop=farm.  And 
maybe what kind of fruit, being seasonal if they are and I can.  Drive along 
the coast between Half Moon Bay and Castroville, you see a dozen or more of 
these.  I think they (or something very much like) are somewhat frequent in 
much of rural, populated Earth.

SteveA
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Clifford Snow]

I use the tag shop=farm. It's been around for a while.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfarm


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:03, Peter Elderson  wrote:

> Is it private sale?
>

Yes

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:31, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> More than good enough for me.  It's verifiable, so ought to be good enough
> for
> anybody else.  I'm interested in cheap test equipment, are the Avos old or
> new? :)
>

New when they're in season, but I don't think they deliver, & it's going to
be a bit of an issue you coming to pick them up! :-)

The fact that a shop is selling something produced on a farm doesn't make
> it a farm shop (otherwise a greengrocer would be
> a farm shop).  A farm shop is on the grounds where the produce is grown.
>

I suppose we could define it a bit closer in that a greengrocer sells
produce from multiple sources / suppliers, whereas a farm=shop only sells
produce produced on that farm?

But Cliff mentioned

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:46, Clifford Snow  wrote:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfarm

Which says: "A shop that sells regional, seasonal, freshly harvested goods.
It could be also used for a roadside produce stand. *Similar inner-city
farm shops also exist that specialize in selling products direct from
(local/regional) farms.*"

We do actually buy things from the place that has the Cow poo, Eggs &
Tomatoes sign up, & have spoken to them a few times. All their produce
comes from their son's farm ~40k west of here. So are they a shop=farm?


> It's stretching things if the shop is attached to a private house and the
> produce is grown in the garden,
>

So what do we call it if we have a bumper crop of mangoes & decide to put a
table out the front & sell them for $1 each?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, 3 Oct 2020 at 23:41, stevea  wrote:

>
> especially on higher-speed primary or trunk highways in rural farming
> country as you'll get one, two or three signs:  "1/2 mile ahead, fresh
> apples, stone fruits and pies!" with cheerful graphics of cherries and
> baked goods.  shop=farm_stand, is what I'd like to tag, but I haven't done
> an OT query or taginfo.  Sometimes it's a pickup truck with fruit boxes or
> someone out of the trunk (boot) of their car or a "go through the door, can
> I get you another cup of coffee with that (honey)?" sort of place.
>

Or maybe something like this?   https://www.facebook.com/TempleBarFarm/
I added the farm nearly a year ago.  Held off on adding what they call the
"farm shop" because it had recently moved from Llwynhelyg Farm across
the road, was still settling down (I wasn't sure if they were going to keep
it going for long) and (most importantly) I couldn't figure out where
exactly it
was.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 00:09, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

>
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:31, Paul Allen  wrote:
>
>>
>> More than good enough for me.  It's verifiable, so ought to be good
>> enough for
>> anybody else.  I'm interested in cheap test equipment, are the Avos old or
>> new? :)
>>
>
> New when they're in season, but I don't think they deliver, & it's going
> to be a bit of an issue you coming to pick them up! :-)
>

 For the right price on one of these it might be worth it.
https://www.avo.co.nz/products/multifunction-installation-testers

The fact that a shop is selling something produced on a farm doesn't make
>> it a farm shop (otherwise a greengrocer would be
>> a farm shop).  A farm shop is on the grounds where the produce is grown.
>>
>
> I suppose we could define it a bit closer in that a greengrocer sells
> produce from multiple sources / suppliers, whereas a farm=shop only sells
> produce produced on that farm?
>

That's how I understand it, going by the places around here that call
themselves
farm shops.  They're on farm grounds selling their own products.

>
> But Cliff mentioned
>
> On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 08:46, Clifford Snow 
> wrote:
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfarm
>
> Which says: "A shop that sells regional, seasonal, freshly harvested
> goods. It could be also used for a roadside produce stand. *Similar
> inner-city farm shops also exist that specialize in selling products direct
> from (local/regional) farms.*"
>

Oh dear.  That complicates matters. I don't know if the term is used in that
way in the UK.  I don't recall seeing it used in that way around here.

>
> We do actually buy things from the place that has the Cow poo, Eggs &
> Tomatoes sign up,
>

All the ingredients needed for a perfect omelette.


> & have spoken to them a few times. All their produce comes from their
> son's farm ~40k west of here. So are they a shop=farm?
>

I would say not, by my understanding of the term.  But I can't guarantee
my understanding matches general UK usage.  However, if we count that
as a farm shop then the term essentially becomes an alias of greengrocer.
A greengrocer with a single supplier, but still a greengrocer.  An
intermediary between the customer and the farmer.

It's stretching things if the shop is attached to a private house and the
>> produce is grown in the garden,
>>
>
> So what do we call it if we have a bumper crop of mangoes & decide to put
> a table out the front & sell them for $1 each?
>

Unless you do it regularly and people come to rely on you for their supply
of mangoes, it's not worth mapping, is it?

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Oct 3, 2020 at 4:31 PM Paul Allen  wrote:

>
>> I would say not, by my understanding of the term.  But I can't guarantee
> my understanding matches general UK usage.  However, if we count that
> as a farm shop then the term essentially becomes an alias of greengrocer.
> A greengrocer with a single supplier, but still a greengrocer.  An
> intermediary between the customer and the farmer.
>
> It's stretching things if the shop is attached to a private house and the
>>> produce is grown in the garden,
>>>
>>
>> So what do we call it if we have a bumper crop of mangoes & decide to put
>> a table out the front & sell them for $1 each?
>>
>
> Unless you do it regularly and people come to rely on you for their supply
> of mangoes, it's not worth mapping, is it?
>

Some of my neighbors sell extra eggs or small bunches of flowers. I don't
map those. To hit and miss.

I live in a farming area. Apparently the soil around here ranks with the
best. A number of the farmers have "farm stands" as they are called
locally. Usually it is a separate building with a lock box to accept cash
or checks. They have small signs along the road as well as a couple of
websites that list the farms and what you can get.  I've tagged a few as
shop=farm. OSM even has a nice icon for the business. These are different
from greengrocers. We have one greengrocer in the area, but I'm not sure if
it has ever been mapped.

>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[stevea]

On Oct 3, 2020, at 4:10 PM, Paul Allen  wrote:
> Or maybe something like this?   https://www.facebook.com/TempleBarFarm/
> I added the farm nearly a year ago.  Held off on adding what they call the
> "farm shop" because it had recently moved from Llwynhelyg Farm across
> the road, was still settling down (I wasn't sure if they were going to keep
> it going for long) and (most importantly) I couldn't figure out where exactly 
> it
> was.

That facebook page isn't exactly the best venue from which to make a 
determination of what this place is, but I get the gist of it, and yes, I'd 
call it a shop=farm, too.  Clifford, we, too (Coastal central/northern 
California, heck, all of California as I grew up in southern) call these "farm 
stands" in local vernacular.

Around here, the (quintessential, cutest, loved by locals...) place like this 
is https://www.yelp.com/biz/fambrini-r-and-company-santa-cruz.  I think they've 
moved since the "grandfather of the family" died last year 
(https://www.legacy.com/obituaries/santacruzsentinel/obituary.aspx?n=john-michael-fambrini&pid=193988853&fhid=8818),
 but only down the road a bit.  I believe the family owns a fair bit of 
farmland in the area and their produce and farm products (even farm-produced 
strawberry soap!) are loved by many around here, Yelp is solid five-out-of-five 
stars in ratings.

I thought I had tagged this near here but I'm not seeing the node in OSM, I'm 
going to have to go and see what they've done in the last year and update the 
local tags.  There really are quite a few of these, especially around 
Watsonville and Castroville.  There are more (Cascade Ranch "U-Pick") up near 
Davenport, Swanton, Año Nuevo State Park.  If you are not in a hurry (and you 
are not if you are driving the Coast Road) and want to soak up some local 
color, try these, they are hard to beat!  Both locals and tourists "passing 
through" seem to love these places.  I've bought pies for holiday feasts and 
they are always a hit.  Kids love to pick out pumpkins in mid-to-late October.  
Even Wikidata says that shop=farm is sometimes called a "farm stand" by locals.

It's good to eat local, it's good to map local!

SteveA
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - (shop=direct marketing)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 09:32, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> However, if we count that as a farm shop then the term essentially becomes
> an alias of greengrocer.
> A greengrocer with a single supplier, but still a greengrocer.
>

True, but under that theory, there's no difference between a convenience
store & a supermarket.

On Sun, 4 Oct 2020 at 10:23, Clifford Snow  wrote:

>  OSM even has a nice icon for the business
>

Just tried mapping one & iD calls it a Produce Stand, which I guess could
also be an alternative name, possibly as shop=produce_stand?

& wondering about also listing what they sell, took me to the produce page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:produce :roll eyes:

Something that wasn't mentioned there though, is manure, & the only
reference that I can find to it is as a content= for bunker_silos?

So, how should manure appear?

produce=manure + manure=horse, or

produce=horse_manure?

There was a semi-related reference as a possible error (Sewage is not
produce but a waste material. Try content
=sewage
),
but I don't think manure counts as sewage?

Thanks

Graeme
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