Re: [Tagging] Barrier=berm

[Volker Schmidt]

Graeme, please mark the page as proposal.

I am not at all happy with "berm". It is unfortunately a term used for a
number of different things all related to earthworks.
What is missing in OSM are clean-cut mapping possibilities for (slopped)
earth walls  and for (one-sided) slopes.
Berm is neither of the two. In addition the main and original meaning of
berm is a step in the slope of an earth wall. See the first diagram in
the German
Wikipedia page for Berme. 
This photo
 shows
one of the objects that I would like to map properly: A river levee with
two berms.





On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 03:59, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> The proposal looks good to me. Thanks for your effort.
>
> On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 9:51 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Following the recent discussions of protective walls, I've created a page
>> for barrier=berm  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dberm
>>
>> As it is already in use 61 times, I didn't think we had to go through the
>> full RFC / voting procedure, but please correct me if I'm wrong?
>>
>> As always, comments & discussion welcomed! :-)
>>
>> Thanks
>>
>> Graeme
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>
> --
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> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Barrier=berm

[Warin]

Berms are also used in motocross.. and MTBs

Scroll halfway down this page 
https://www.dirtbikes101.com/arts/dirt-bike-riding-tips-corners.html


Looks like berm is a term used/misused for some different things.. may 
be best to use something else?




On 26/11/19 19:28, Volker Schmidt wrote:

Graeme, please mark the page as proposal.

I am not at all happy with "berm". It is unfortunately a term used for 
a number of different things all related to earthworks.
What is missing in OSM are clean-cut mapping possibilities for 
(slopped) earth walls  and for (one-sided) slopes.
Berm is neither of the two. In addition the main and original meaning 
of berm is a step in the slope of an earth wall. See the first diagram 
in the German Wikipedia page for Berme. 

This photo 
 
shows one of the objects that I would like to map properly: A river 
levee with two berms.






On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 03:59, Dave Swarthout > wrote:


The proposal looks good to me. Thanks for your effort.

On Tue, Nov 26, 2019 at 9:51 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick
mailto:graemefi...@gmail.com>> wrote:

Following the recent discussions of protective walls, I've
created a page for barrier=berm
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dberm

As it is already in use 61 times, I didn't think we had to go
through the full RFC / voting procedure, but please correct me
if I'm wrong?

As always, comments & discussion welcomed! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Dave Swarthout

Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand



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Re: [Tagging] Barrier=berm

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 26. Nov. 2019 um 09:30 Uhr schrieb Volker Schmidt :

> Graeme, please mark the page as proposal.
>
> I am not at all happy with "berm". It is unfortunately a term used for a
> number of different things all related to earthworks.
> What is missing in OSM are clean-cut mapping possibilities for (slopped)
> earth walls  and for (one-sided) slopes.
> Berm is neither of the two. In addition the main and original meaning of
> berm is a step in the slope of an earth wall. See the first diagram in the 
> German
> Wikipedia page for Berme. 
> This photo
>  shows
> one of the objects that I would like to map properly: A river levee with
> two berms.
>


I agree the term seems to be mainly describing a horizontal, linear narrow
area within an embankment (German usage of the term "Berme", which
originates from French). This is also what I found in the oxford online
dictionaries, and what wikipedia en has as first meaning:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berm

Generally, proposals should be set up in the proposal namespace.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] shop selling trucks

[Marc Gemis]

Typically, the websites of the vendors use "Commercial Vehicles"

some examples:

https://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/en.html
https://www.peugeot.co.za/range.html
http://www.usedvans.mercedes-benz.co.uk/ (window title)

m.

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Re: [Tagging] shop selling trucks

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Di., 26. Nov. 2019 um 13:08 Uhr schrieb Marc Gemis :

> Typically, the websites of the vendors use "Commercial Vehicles"
>
> some examples:
>
> https://www.volkswagen-vans.co.uk/en.html
> https://www.peugeot.co.za/range.html
> http://www.usedvans.mercedes-benz.co.uk/ (window title)



this is the place I have tagged:
http://www.fcaspa.com/

They only sell Volvo trucks (new), but have a wide selection of used
vehicles of many different brands.

Cheers
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Barrier=berm

[Tony OSM]

How do we know that 61 precious uses of the word berm all meant the 
same? without verifying each one .


The english wikipedia https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Berm allows

 * the level step element of raised barrier
 * raised element without a level element

An earthwork raised element with a way on top seems to be an embankment.

A earthwork raised element which has an armoured side seems to be a 
revetment - I can see no use of this in OSM., but it is in many books 
about castles and fortifications.


In my view earthworks in general could do with analysis to agree terms 
and usage, they do occur in many places and are large mappable features.


Tony

TonyS999

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Re: [Tagging] Barrier=berm

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 08:30, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

I am not at all happy with "berm". It is unfortunately a term used for a
> number of different things all related to earthworks.
>

It appears that the technical term for the part of the range which the shot
impacts is known
as the butts or a backstop.  See
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shooting_range#Butts_/_backstop
Butts/backstop applies to earthen mounds on outdoor ranges and metal plates
on indoor
ranges.  Elsewhere on the page it mentions the term "mound" several times
to refer to the
earthen butts/backstop on an outdoor range, but "mound" may be a simple
descriptive term rather
than a technical one.  It is also the case that, as far as OSM is
concerned, "mound" may be
as confusing (or even more confusing) as berm.

As far as British Englsh goes, one shooting club site I've found refers to
"stop butts" and
"butt stops" which makes sense given
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/butt#Etymology_1

Given https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/berm and the way the proposal is
written, "berm" may be
as good as it gets.  We could always subtag it...

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Barrier=berm

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 13:11, Tony OSM  wrote:

A earthwork raised element which has an armoured side seems to be a
> revetment - I can see no use of this in OSM., but it is in many books about
> castles and fortifications.
>

When it comes to castles, a revetment is essentially a retaining wall that
is part of the
fortification and an ordinary fortification wall is often referred to as a
curtain wall.  An earthen
bank (with no wall) that is part of a fortification (such as a motte and
bailey) is an embankment.
Purists will object to my simplifications, I expect.

> In my view earthworks in general could do with analysis to agree terms and
> usage, they do occur in many places and are large mappable features.
>
Cans of worms are never large enough. :)

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Barrier=berm

[Volker Schmidt]

For "my" shooting range I think a way with a single tag
embankment=yes
is sufficient.

For a large levee it is not.
Let's concentrate on the big items where size matters.

On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 14:33, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Tue, 26 Nov 2019 at 13:11, Tony OSM  wrote:
>
> A earthwork raised element which has an armoured side seems to be a
>> revetment - I can see no use of this in OSM., but it is in many books about
>> castles and fortifications.
>>
>
> When it comes to castles, a revetment is essentially a retaining wall that
> is part of the
> fortification and an ordinary fortification wall is often referred to as a
> curtain wall.  An earthen
> bank (with no wall) that is part of a fortification (such as a motte and
> bailey) is an embankment.
> Purists will object to my simplifications, I expect.
>
>> In my view earthworks in general could do with analysis to agree terms
>> and usage, they do occur in many places and are large mappable features.
>>
> Cans of worms are never large enough. :)
>
> --
> Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - footway=link

[Markus]

On Mon, 25 Nov 2019 at 11:22, Allroads  wrote:
>
> Then there is a tag as placement=transition.
>
> This have also a kind of connection link function.
>
> [...]
>
> If we think about it further, where more does this tag fit?

The two tags are similar, but different:

The key placement gives information about the placement of a highway=*
way relative to the lanes. placement=transition means that the
placement is changing along the highway=* way. It doesn't say whether
the highway=* way is part of the carriageway of another highway=*. (It
can, e.g. when the road forks, but it doesn't have to, e.g. when the
road doesn't fork but the number of lanes changes.)

In contrast, *=link (or *=connection or how will finally be called)
means that the highway=* way is located inside the carriageway of
another highway=* way and thus has no length or doesn't really exist.
It is only used to connect the roads or paths to make routing
possible.

Regards

Markus

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