Re: [Tagging] Which global OSM mailing list for the "community index"?

[bkil]

I'm thinking more along the lines of:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(communication_protocol)#Bridges
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendica#Features
But we're still missing a few. It would be best if we had a single
unified platform (or one for realtime, and one for non-realtime use
cases). Partitioning could still be done using labels/categories
within the platform.

On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 10:52 PM marc marc  wrote:
>
> Le 22.06.19 à 10:31, bkil a écrit :
> > I wonder why nobody has created a gateway
> > to merge all discussions
>
> nabble.com/ do the job (but you can only merge ml/forum only
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Which global OSM mailing list for the "community index"?

[Simon Poole]

The idea of providing a matrix (or mattermost or ...)  instance for the
OSM community has been floating around for a long time, but on the one
hand it would require somebody willing to to the sysadmin work for it,
and somebody would need to do some work on integrating OSM
authentication (as I side affect we could get rid of the web irc UI
which oftc doesn't like). Both likely not gigantic tasks, but nobody has
stepped up to date.

Simon

PS: HW is likely not to be an issue.

Am 23.06.2019 um 12:19 schrieb bkil:
> I'm thinking more along the lines of:
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matrix_(communication_protocol)#Bridges
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Friendica#Features
> But we're still missing a few. It would be best if we had a single
> unified platform (or one for realtime, and one for non-realtime use
> cases). Partitioning could still be done using labels/categories
> within the platform.
>
> On Sat, Jun 22, 2019 at 10:52 PM marc marc  wrote:
>> Le 22.06.19 à 10:31, bkil a écrit :
>>> I wonder why nobody has created a gateway
>>> to merge all discussions
>> nabble.com/ do the job (but you can only merge ml/forum only
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging



signature.asc
Description: OpenPGP digital signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 02:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Aircraft too can have an external electrical power connection.
>

Aircraft power is rather specialized.  Three phase 115 VAC @ 400 Hz and/or
28 VDC
(14 VDC for some light aircraft).  The connectors are rather specialized
too.  More
importantly, it's usually provided by a mobile Ground Power Unit, which is
not really
something we can map.  Some people have mapped mobile street vendors which
stop at
a certain location or locations (such as a mobile chip shop that visits
different villages
on different days), but GPUs are rolled up to wherever an aircraft happens
to be.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[François Lacombe]

Le dim. 23 juin 2019 à 13:49, Paul Allen  a écrit :

> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 02:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> Aircraft too can have an external electrical power connection.
>>
>
> Aircraft power is rather specialized.
>

Like any power supply.
Being different from domestic power doesn't make a power supply more
special than another one.
Like any man made thing, it is adapted to use case (which can be described
in a dedicated OSM tag)

All the best

François
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 13:01, François Lacombe 
wrote:

>
> Le dim. 23 juin 2019 à 13:49, Paul Allen  a écrit :
>
>> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 02:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> Aircraft too can have an external electrical power connection.
>>>
>>
>> Aircraft power is rather specialized.
>>
>
> Like any power supply.
>

Erm, yes and no.  Our existing tags don't specify frequency or voltage but
connectors and you
have to infer what is going to come out of those connectors.  Which is
either standard frequency
and voltage for a particular country or standardized outputs for a
particular car charging connector.
So we'd need to be able to specify what is available from a GPU.  Some only
provide 28 VDC,
some only 14 VDC, some only 115 VAC @ 400 Hz, many provide a combination of
those.

Being different from domestic power doesn't make a power supply more
> special than another one.
> Like any man made thing, it is adapted to use case (which can be described
> in a dedicated OSM tag)
>

Yes, you can tag it but  you cannot place its position.   It's not stuck in
the ground like a car
charging station or a camp site hook-up, it's mobile. At its simplest, a
GPU is not much more
than a couple of 12V lead acid batteries in a wheelbarrow.  See
https://www.powervamp.com/ground-power-units/ and look carefully at the
wheels (even the
one that looks like it's fixed has an option for a dolley).

Mapping a GPU would be like mapping a tractor on a farm.  It's not sensible
because it moves.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Jan S]

Am 23. Juni 2019 14:16:43 MESZ schrieb Paul Allen :
>Mapping a GPU would be like mapping a tractor on a farm.  It's not
>sensible
>because it moves.

Wouldn't it make sense then to tag it with the airport or airstrip and indicate 
the connector/voltage/etc for the entire facility?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 13:40, François Lacombe 
wrote:

>
> Le dim. 23 juin 2019 à 14:20, Paul Allen  a écrit :
>
>> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 13:01, François Lacombe 
>> wrote:
>>
>>>
>>> Le dim. 23 juin 2019 à 13:49, Paul Allen  a écrit :
>>>
 On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 02:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

 Aircraft too can have an external electrical power connection.
>

 Aircraft power is rather specialized.

>>>
>>> Like any power supply.
>>>
>>
>> Erm, yes and no.  Our existing tags don't specify frequency or voltage
>> but connectors and you
>> have to infer what is going to come out of those connectors.
>>
>
> Err what is this?
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:voltage
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:frequency
>

Something I didn't know about. :)

>
> Here is the Zurich Airport ground energy systems documentation.
> Three types of supplies : Aircraft, ground and GPU
>
> https://www.zurich-airport.com/~/media/flughafenzh/dokumente/das_unternehmen/laerm_politik_und_umwelt/luft/2018_zrh_aircraft-ground-energy-system_20180214.pdf
>

Ah, OK.  I live and learn.  I'm more familiar with smaller airfields.

It's not so desirable to add power_supply=GPU on the airport perimeter or
> relation because you'll have to deald with electronic appliances charging
> supplies, industrial supplies or any other numerous kind of supplies in
> such a complex facility.
>

Thinking of airfields I'm familiar with, power_supply=GPU on the airport
perimeter would be
necessary.  One only has mobile GPUs.  A couple are on air force bases, so
the messes may have
appliance charging these days.  One has no catering/residential facility (a
hotel has long been
planned but never materialized) so for all practical purposes there is only
the mobile GPU(s)
to deal with.  Yeah, I'm sure special arrangements could be accommodated,
like "Do you mind
if I use a mains socket in your office to charge my phone?" but
unless/until it's offered as
a service, I wouldn't map it.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[François Lacombe]

Thanks for answer

Le dim. 23 juin 2019 à 14:20, Paul Allen  a écrit :

> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 13:01, François Lacombe 
> wrote:
>
>>
>> Le dim. 23 juin 2019 à 13:49, Paul Allen  a écrit :
>>
>>> On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 02:02, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>
>>> Aircraft too can have an external electrical power connection.

>>>
>>> Aircraft power is rather specialized.
>>>
>>
>> Like any power supply.
>>
>
> Erm, yes and no.  Our existing tags don't specify frequency or voltage but
> connectors and you
> have to infer what is going to come out of those connectors.
>

Err what is this?
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:voltage
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:frequency

Ratherly agreed defaults don't prevent anyone to specify values in all
situations if ou she/he wants to.


>
> Being different from domestic power doesn't make a power supply more
>> special than another one.
>> Like any man made thing, it is adapted to use case (which can be
>> described in a dedicated OSM tag)
>>
>
> Yes, you can tag it but  you cannot place its position.   It's not stuck
> in the ground like a car
> charging station or a camp site hook-up, it's mobile. At its simplest, a
> GPU is not much more
> than a couple of 12V lead acid batteries in a wheelbarrow.
>

Here is the Zurich Airport ground energy systems documentation.
Three types of supplies : Aircraft, ground and GPU
https://www.zurich-airport.com/~/media/flughafenzh/dokumente/das_unternehmen/laerm_politik_und_umwelt/luft/2018_zrh_aircraft-ground-energy-system_20180214.pdf

OSM would only describe ground power supplies and obviously not mobile GPU
precisely because they move.
It's not so desirable to add power_supply=GPU on the airport perimeter or
relation because you'll have to deald with electronic appliances charging
supplies, industrial supplies or any other numerous kind of supplies in
such a complex facility.

All the best

François
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - amenity=power_supply

[Michael Brandtner via Tagging]

I thought this was an easy case for my first proposal. Now I'm faced with with 
comments in the wiki that suggest marking two tags as deprecated (one used over 
3 times) and creating a complex tagging systems that includes all places 
where electrical power can be obtained... 
 
  Am Sa., Juni 22, 2019 at 17:41 schrieb Michael Brandtner via 
Tagging:   Thank you for your comments so far. I've 
now written a proposal.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/amenity%3Dpower_supply
The definition (wording can surely be improved):" A place where you can get 
electrical power."
I've not taken into account your discussion about different socket types. This 
would be the topic for a different proposal about improving the power_supply= 
sub-tag. But this proposal is only about establishing the new main tag.
I'm looking forward to your comments! 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
  
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - amenity=power_supply

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Note that you sure not obligated to follow
all suggestions.

Usually at least some suggestions are
contradictory or without support or
harmful.

23 cze 2019, 17:06 od tagging@openstreetmap.org:

> I thought this was an easy case for my first proposal. Now I'm faced with 
> with comments in the wiki that suggest marking two tags as deprecated (one 
> used over 3 times) and creating a complex tagging systems that includes 
> all places where electrical power can be obtained...
>
>
>> Am Sa., Juni 22, 2019 at 17:41 schrieb Michael Brandtner via Tagging
>> :
>> Thank you for your comments so far. I've now written a proposal.
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/amenity%3Dpower_supply 
>> 
>>
>> The definition (wording can surely be improved):
>> " A place where you can get electrical power."
>>
>> I've not taken into account your discussion about different socket types. 
>> This would be the topic for a different proposal about improving the 
>> power_supply= sub-tag. But this proposal is only about establishing the new 
>> main tag.
>>
>> I'm looking forward to your comments! 
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
>> 
>>___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat, 2019-06-22 at 01:23 +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Fri, 21 Jun 2019 at 23:56, Graeme Fitzpatrick <
> graemefi...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > On Sat, 22 Jun 2019 at 04:53, Paul Allen 
> > wrote:
> > 
> > > Having power_supply=yes indicates that the socket type is
> > > unknown, 
> > 
> > But wouldn't that default as the country you're in? If you're in
> > Britain, it's a British socket, so you need a "British" plug (or an
> > International adaptor!) to plug in, in Australia an Oz socket & so
> > on.
> 
> It's not that simple.  Indoors in the UK it's a BS1363 socket. 
> Outdoors on a camp site it will most
> likely be a CEE 17 blue single-phase.  But it's possible you might
> get CEE 17 red three-phase
> in some situations.  I've a vague memory there are other connectors
> used in marine applications.
> Also, although BS1363 connectors are for indoor usage, it's possible
> to get weatherproof
> housings for external use.  So even in just the UK, if a camp site
> says power hook-ups are
> available you can't be sure what connector is used.  Most likely CEE
> 17 blue, but maybe not.
>  
On camp sites in the UK and France the hook-up is a CEE 17 blue single-
phase in my experience. 

I would assume the rest of Europe is the same although have not camped
outside UK and France since I have been of an age where I appreciate
electricity in a tent.

Phil (trigpoint)


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Paul Allen]

On Sun, 23 Jun 2019 at 18:26, Philip Barnes  wrote:


> On camp sites in the UK and France the hook-up is a CEE 17 blue
> single-phase in my experience.
>

I think that's what the UK wiring regs mandate for new installations.  And
have done for many years.
But there may be older installations offering what was permitted before CEE
17 came along unless
legislation has been passed mandating they be replaced.

It's fairly rare for legislation like that with regard to wiring unless
there have been serious problems
with the old stuff (like aluminium wiring in housing).  Fit (or replace) a
consumer unit and it has
to have MCBs and an RCD in a metal case.  But if you have MCBs and an RCD
in a plastic
case (acceptable until recently) you don't have to replace it.  If your
consumer unit has fuses rather
than MCBs and doesn't have an RCD you don't have to replace it.  So, unless
somebody can
point to relevant legislation, I'd expect pre-CEE 17 installations to still
exist - with a properly
waterproofed enclosure BS1363 outlets would do the job, albeit with a lower
current rating.

So, on the principle of verifiability, if a UK camping site advertises
electrical hook-ups but doesn't
specify the connector, I wouldn't tag it as CEE 17 blue even though it is
almost certain to be so.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] lanes = 0

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 5:49 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:

> Joseph Eisenberg  writes:
>
> > This requirement is fine for Europe, but the presence of lane markings
> > is not reliable in all of the world.
> >
> > In developing countries, such as here in Indonesia, the presence of
> > painted lane markings is inconsistent. Often cheap pain is used
> > instead of more durable thermoplastic, so the markings only last a
> > year. After that the road still functions the same, even though the
> > markings are no longer visible.
>
> It is not just about developing countries.  In my part of the US, there
> are many roads whicha have either no paint at all, or have white lines
> at the edges (so you can see where the edges are at night).   Almost all
> of these roads are wide enough for two cars to pass comfortably, but not
> really wider than that.  This seems really obviously one lane in each
> direction, and everybody who drives here gets that.  There is a legal
> requirement to stay on the right of the imaginary center lane (absent a
> reason such as passing a pedestrian); you can be cited for "operating
> left of center" entire reasonably on a two-cars-wide road with no
> markings -- but that will only happen if you are left of center
> egregiously or on a blind curve or rise.
>
>
> So that's a long way of saying that "lane markings" should not be
> required for lanes=N; it is enough to observe the local conventions


 In that example, I think it'd be better to just tag width=* instead of
lanes=*.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Idea for a new tag: amenity=power_supply

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 21.06.2019 um 21:15 schrieb François Lacombe :
> 
> It's more fun to use socket=* than power_supply:socket_type=* since the only 
> important word is "socket". 
> Power_supply comes in another tag and _type doesn't bring any additionnal 
> information.


+1

Cheers, Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] lanes = 0

[Nita S.]

Without digging deeply into width, presumably it measured in meters ? I can
see value there, but the width has to be an average, and the cleared area
for passage of vehicles.

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 3:12 PM Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 5:49 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:
>
>> Joseph Eisenberg  writes:
>>
>> > This requirement is fine for Europe, but the presence of lane markings
>> > is not reliable in all of the world.
>> >
>> > In developing countries, such as here in Indonesia, the presence of
>> > painted lane markings is inconsistent. Often cheap pain is used
>> > instead of more durable thermoplastic, so the markings only last a
>> > year. After that the road still functions the same, even though the
>> > markings are no longer visible.
>>
>> It is not just about developing countries.  In my part of the US, there
>> are many roads whicha have either no paint at all, or have white lines
>> at the edges (so you can see where the edges are at night).   Almost all
>> of these roads are wide enough for two cars to pass comfortably, but not
>> really wider than that.  This seems really obviously one lane in each
>> direction, and everybody who drives here gets that.  There is a legal
>> requirement to stay on the right of the imaginary center lane (absent a
>> reason such as passing a pedestrian); you can be cited for "operating
>> left of center" entire reasonably on a two-cars-wide road with no
>> markings -- but that will only happen if you are left of center
>> egregiously or on a blind curve or rise.
>>
>>
>> So that's a long way of saying that "lane markings" should not be
>> required for lanes=N; it is enough to observe the local conventions
>
>
>  In that example, I think it'd be better to just tag width=* instead of
> lanes=*.
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] lanes = 0

[Warin]

The width default unit is metres, see 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Map_Features/Units for other units 
and how to state them.


For a road I would tag the minimum width - so any vehicle entering can 
pass along the entire length and not get stuck.




On 24/06/19 07:56, Nita S. wrote:
Without digging deeply into width, presumably it measured in meters ? 
I can see value there, but the width has to be an average, and the 
cleared area for passage of vehicles.


On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 3:12 PM Paul Johnson > wrote:




On Fri, Jun 21, 2019 at 5:49 PM Greg Troxel mailto:g...@lexort.com>> wrote:

Joseph Eisenberg mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> writes:

> This requirement is fine for Europe, but the presence of
lane markings
> is not reliable in all of the world.
>
> In developing countries, such as here in Indonesia, the
presence of
> painted lane markings is inconsistent. Often cheap pain is used
> instead of more durable thermoplastic, so the markings only
last a
> year. After that the road still functions the same, even
though the
> markings are no longer visible.

It is not just about developing countries.  In my part of the
US, there
are many roads whicha have either no paint at all, or have
white lines
at the edges (so you can see where the edges are at night). 
 Almost all
of these roads are wide enough for two cars to pass
comfortably, but not
really wider than that.  This seems really obviously one lane
in each
direction, and everybody who drives here gets that. There is a
legal
requirement to stay on the right of the imaginary center lane
(absent a
reason such as passing a pedestrian); you can be cited for
"operating
left of center" entire reasonably on a two-cars-wide road with no
markings -- but that will only happen if you are left of center
egregiously or on a blind curve or rise.


So that's a long way of saying that "lane markings" should not be
required for lanes=N; it is enough to observe the local
conventions


 In that example, I think it'd be better to just tag width=*
instead of lanes=*.
___



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - amenity=power_supply

[Warin]

On 24/06/19 01:06, Michael Brandtner via Tagging wrote:

I thought this was an easy case for my first proposal.


Not easy, is it.
From a restricted point of view most things appear easy. It is only 
when a wider view is had that difficulties might be seen.
And then once other mappers start to use it there are other problems 
that may arise.


Don't take it personally.

Do think about what they are saying and if it makes sense.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] lanes = 0

[Greg Troxel]

Paul Johnson  writes:

>  In that example, I think it'd be better to just tag width=* instead of
> lanes=*.

Perhaps, but then data consumers have to figure how how many cars are
supposed to be side by side.  That number really is local convention;
one road I use is really not wide enough for 2, but people always do it.
So I favor using the lanes tag to specify how many lanes are actually
typically in use.  Then with width one can get the average width of
those.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] lanes = 0

[Paul Johnson]

That so doesn't work in the real world, though.  Residential streets are
typically about 35 feet wide curb to curb.  Is this lanes=4 or lanes=2?
Trick question, it's neither because parking is allowed on the curb on both
sides and the middle portion isn't wide enough to allow to cars to pass
side to side in the middle.

On Sun, Jun 23, 2019 at 8:02 PM Greg Troxel  wrote:

> Paul Johnson  writes:
>
> >  In that example, I think it'd be better to just tag width=* instead of
> > lanes=*.
>
> Perhaps, but then data consumers have to figure how how many cars are
> supposed to be side by side.  That number really is local convention;
> one road I use is really not wide enough for 2, but people always do it.
> So I favor using the lanes tag to specify how many lanes are actually
> typically in use.  Then with width one can get the average width of
> those.
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging