Re: [Tagging] Designated spots for dogs to wait

[John Willis via Tagging]

> On Jun 18, 2019, at 9:46 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Are there any objections to man_made=hitching_point? I think it will be a 
> little used item.

If you search for "dog leash hitching post" you find a lot of different kinds 
of things - and all of them look like something a horse could accidently 
destroy - and would never keep them in such a spot if they yank if spooked. 

Just like we have "bridleway" distinct from footway, I don't think we should 
use "Hitching post", as it implies something to be used by hoses. 

Man_made=pet_hitching_point would be my suggestion. 

All the new Lawson convenience stores in Japan have one mounted outside, and 
many pet parks also have them as well. 

I will look up their brand name to provide more info. I have dejavu about this, 
as I think I did this before for OSM. 

I also assume there is little overlap between these two features - one meant 
for horses near a stable and one found at a suburban dog park or busy shop. 

I agree that it might not get used very much at all, but I would separate 
something meant to secure a dangerous animal the size of a car and and 
something you walk on a leash and could carry in your arms. 

Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] Designated spots for dogs to wait

[Warin]

On 18/06/19 20:16, John Willis via Tagging wrote:

On Jun 18, 2019, at 9:46 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Are there any objections to man_made=hitching_point? I think it will be a 
little used item.

If you search for "dog leash hitching post" you find a lot of different kinds 
of things - and all of them look like something a horse could accidently destroy - and 
would never keep them in such a spot if they yank if spooked.

Just like we have "bridleway" distinct from footway, I don't think we should use 
"Hitching post", as it implies something to be used by hoses.

Man_made=pet_hitching_point would be my suggestion.

All the new Lawson convenience stores in Japan have one mounted outside, and 
many pet parks also have them as well.

I will look up their brand name to provide more info. I have dejavu about this, 
as I think I did this before for OSM.


I think that was for horses.. I came up with one for a pub/cafe/bakery  IIRC.



I also assume there is little overlap between these two features - one meant 
for horses near a stable and one found at a suburban dog park or busy shop.

I agree that it might not get used very much at all, but I would separate 
something meant to secure a dangerous animal the size of a car and and 
something you walk on a leash and could carry in your arms.


You have not seen large dogs then. A relatives dog would pull my arm off 
running up hill .. and it was not large...

Bruny Island now has laws that cats must be on leashes or restrained inside a 
car outside their property. Could mean that cats will need hitching too.
https://www.abc.net.au/news/2019-06-12/bruny-island-introduces-strict-new-cat-laws/11202024


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Re: [Tagging] Designated spots for dogs to wait

[John Willis via Tagging]

Javbw

> On Jun 18, 2019, at 7:37 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> You have not seen large dogs then. A relatives dog would pull my arm off 
> running up hill .. and it was not large...

I'll have to snap a pic of one of the common pet anchor points I have seen (one 
company makes all of them around here) tomorrow.

I have dealt with large dogs. A dog would have a tough time yanking a hook 
(properly) anchored into the wall with screws or bolted to a pole, whereas a 
horse could bend the same hook open or rip it off the wall with the jerk of his 
head. They are not meant to handle that much force. 

Thinking of cats and other anamals that would use a leash, I think 
pet_hitching_point covers the expected usage and separates it from riding 
animals. These are impractical  to anchor a horse, beyond their lack of 
strength - a horse would be standing in the smoking area in front of the store 
and could kick a car or a glass display window if he used one of these pet 
points. These points simply do different jobs. You can't fit a car in a bicycle 
parking rack either. 

Although I wouldn't leave him in front of a convenience store, I have had a cat 
on a leash before - he wanted to follow us on a walk, and I didn't want him 
getting spooked and run over. 

Javbw. 

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[Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Andreas Lattmann]

Hi everyone, 
I don't know if it's the right mailing list.
I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new tag is 
wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating mountain 
trails for disabled people.  
It would be nice to be able to map these paths.  
Thank you

Andreas Lattmann

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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Mateusz Konieczny]

18 Jun 2019, 16:28 by andrea.lattm...@ga-2.it:

> Hi everyone, 
> I don't know if it's the right mailing list.
>
It is the correct one for discussing tagging, especially new tags! Welcome!

> I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new tag 
> is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating 
> mountain trails for disabled people. 
> It would be nice to be able to map these paths. 
>
Where it would be applied? To paths or to route relations?

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Re: [Tagging] Verifiability of geometry

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 02:13, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>
> For the 'centre' of place I tend tot go either for the post office or the
> railway station.
>

I have a vague memory, which a brief search with google is unable to
confirm, that milestones in
Britain gave their distance from the head post office of a town.  Even if
that vague memory is
correct, I know of one town (Lampeter/Llanbedr Pont Steffan) where a rent
increase forced the
main (only) post office to move from the centre of town to a supermarket on
the outskirts of the
town.

Railway station?  Lampeter had one once but it, too, was on the then
outskirts of the town.
Cardigan had one once, but it was on the then outskirts of the town.   In
fact, whilst larger
towns/cities in the  UK may have a main (or only) railway station in a
central location, the smaller
towns tend to have railway stations closer to the outskirts.  Or even
outside the outskirts.

Somewhere along the thoroughfare known as High Street or Main Street might
be a better bet.  But
towns can be drastically redeveloped over time and what was once the main
street is no longer
deserving of the name it retains.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[marc marc]

Le 18.06.19 à 16:28, Andreas Lattmann a écrit :
>   mountain trails for disabled people

map the mountain trails as usual (way and/or relation)
and add wheelchair=yes on it (or wheelchair=limited
if ppl need help to use it)
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 15:32, Andreas Lattmann 
wrote:

I don't know if it's the right mailing list.
>

It is.

I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new
> tag is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating
> mountain trails for disabled people.
> It would be nice to be able to map these paths.
>

Is there any reason not to use the existing
wheelchair=yes|no|limited|designated tags?  If you add
wheelchair=yes to a hiking trail it is implicit that it is for hiking in a
wheelchair.   A problem with
adding wheelchair=hiking is that people may then misapply it (because it
would be available in
editor drop-downs) to other ways where wheelchair=yes ought to be used.

-- 
Paul


-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Designated spots for dogs to wait

[Paul Allen]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 01:50, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On 18/06/19 08:50, Paul Allen wrote:
>
> hitching_point=dog|cat|horse|yes if you really feel a need to specify what
> can or cannot be hitched
> there.
>
>
That was silly of me.  It would be better to have
hitching_point=post|rail|loop|hook|yes.   And
use hitching_point:for=dog|cat|horse with semicolon multiple values
permitted.

People can add sub tags for the kind of animal, the construction, material,
> capacity and any other detail if they wish.
>

hitching_point:capacity, hitching_point:material etc can be added later if
really required.

Are there any objections to man_made=hitching_point? I think it will be a
> little used item.
>

You're probably right there.  Not much call for it.  And unlikely to be
rendered until we get vector
carto, and maybe not even then.  But, analogously to Internet Rule 34 (if
it exists, there is porn
of it, no exceptions): if it exists, somebody will want to map it.  So
let's standardize on a tag: to
reduce the number of people creating ad hoc tags for it and to avoid
somebody inventing a silly
tag like landuse=dog_corral or tourism=dog_loop.

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Peter Elderson]

+1

Mvg Peter Elderson

> Op 18 jun. 2019 om 16:38 heeft marc marc  het 
> volgende geschreven:
> 
>> Le 18.06.19 à 16:28, Andreas Lattmann a écrit :
>>  mountain trails for disabled people
> 
> map the mountain trails as usual (way and/or relation)
> and add wheelchair=yes on it (or wheelchair=limited
> if ppl need help to use it)
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Re: [Tagging] Designated spots for dogs to wait

[Jmapb via Tagging]

On 6/18/2019 10:14 AM, Paul Allen wrote:


Are there any objections to man_made=hitching_point? I think it
will be a little used item.


You're probably right there.  Not much call for it.  And unlikely to
be rendered until we get vector
carto, and maybe not even then.  But, analogously to Internet Rule 34
(if it exists, there is porn
of it, no exceptions): if it exists, somebody will want to map it.  So
let's standardize on a tag: to
reduce the number of people creating ad hoc tags for it and to avoid
somebody inventing a silly
tag like landuse=dog_corral or tourism=dog_loop.


Naturally Brooklyn NY has to come to come along and complicate things:

https://hellodogspot.com
https://pix11.com/2017/05/24/rentable-dog-houses-brooklyn-dog-parker/

Why tie your dog to a hook for free when instead you could pay for a
private climate-controlled doghouse on the sidewalk, complete with a
smartphone app that locks the door and shows you the doghouse webcam?

I don't think any of these are mapped yet (in fact I think this
company's in decline because I used to see these all over and no longer
do). I wouldn't want to tag these as "hitching_point" because there's no
hitch. I might have been inclined to shoehorn them into
amenity=animal_boarding, but it since they fill the same need at the
hitching points I wonder if there should be a tag that could apply to
both of these items.

Jason

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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Andy Townsend]

On 18/06/2019 15:28, Andreas Lattmann wrote:

I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new tag is 
wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating mountain 
trails for disabled people.
It would be nice to be able to map these paths.


Would existing tags such as 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:smoothness and perhaps 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:tracktype also be useful here?


That would allow a wide range of different trail conditions to be be 
recorded, not just a simple binary "yes/no".  The problem with a simple 
yes or no is that wheelchairs come in all shapes and sizes (especially 
those designed to operate outside an urban environment) and some are 
likely to be able to handle what would definitely "wheelchair=no" for 
most with ease.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Valor Naram via Tagging]

This is a good point and should be the preferred way. For your purpose you should usehighway=pathwheelchair=designated.This tells mappers and other users of OSM data that the highway is a path https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath and designated for wheelchair users https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wheelchairCheerioSören alias Valor Naram Original Message Subject: Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hikingFrom: Paul Allen To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" CC: On Tue, 18 Jun 2019 at 15:32, Andreas Lattmann  wrote:Is there any reason not to use the existing wheelchair=yes|no|limited|designated tags?  If you addwheelchair=yes to a hiking trail it is implicit that it is for hiking in a wheelchair.   A problem withadding wheelchair=hiking is that people may then misapply it (because it would be available ineditor drop-downs) to other ways where wheelchair=yes ought to be used.-- Paul-- Paul
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Nick Bolten]

I would suggest developing a new tag that means, "this authority has
designated this path as accessible by wheelchair users", as that's the
information you actually possess and can communicate. A description of
on-the-ground infrastructure would also be appropriate, though I suspect
there might not be good tags for doing this on trails. Example: I'm not
sure if anyone has evaluated whether different users consistently tag
"smoothness" the same way (a potential issue with data maintenance /
accuracy) nor whether the tag captures the information wheelchair users
need to know.

wheelchair=yes is usually an inappropriate tag for most situations because
wheelchair users tend to disagree about what paths are accessible. Factors
such as the chair they use, experience with their chair, athleticism, and
comfort with risk-taking all factor into it, so a one-size-fits-all
approach is tricky. You will find wheelchair users that are happy to ignore
an 8 cm raised curb and others who are uncomfortable with inclines flatter
than the legal limits.

I just reviewed how wheelchair=designated is documented. In terms of the
actual words in the tag, I initially thought this would be a reasonable tag
(someone has designated this path as wheelchair accessible!), but the wiki
makes me think it shouldn't be used here. The wiki states that this tag is
rarely used and that it implies specific infrastructure has been built to
support wheelchair users, which might not be the case for a path that's
been declared accessible by a particular authority.

Best,

Nick

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 7:32 AM Andreas Lattmann 
wrote:

> Hi everyone,
> I don't know if it's the right mailing list.
> I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new
> tag is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating
> mountain trails for disabled people.
> It would be nice to be able to map these paths.
> Thank you
>
> Andreas Lattmann
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Andreas Lattmann]

>Where it would be applied? To paths or to route relations?

would be included in the relations

I was thinking about this new tag because often particular wheelchairs are 
used, for example: [1] [2]

So if I insert wheelchair = yes what other tag can I use to make it clear that 
special equipment is needed?


[1] http://www.dappertutto.org/files/montagna_natura1.jpg

[2] 
https://www.disabili.com/images/stories/disabiliabili/Extreme_X8/carrozzina_elettronica_per_sabbia.jpg
--
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Volker Schmidt]

highway=path
> wheelchair=designated
>
This would only be correct if this path is mainly or exclusively for
wheelchair users.
I presume thet the majority of hiking routes for wheelchair users do not
exclude other users, they are likely to be shared with pedestrians,
possibly also cyclists.

I guess the "suitable for wheelchair" property of a given concatenation of
highways requires that all its components have wheelchair=yes or
wheelchair=full tags.
If we are talking about a signed route for wheelchair users, than the
tagging could go on the route, even though my gut feeling is that it shold
in any case co on every member highway of the route

>
> This tells mappers and other users of OSM data that the highway is a path
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpath and designated for
> wheelchair users https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:wheelchair
>
yes


>

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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Markus]

Hi!

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 16:32 Andreas Lattmann, 
wrote:

> I would like to propose a new tag (if it is not already there).  The new
> tag is wheelchair = hiking because in Italy many associations are creating
> mountain trails for disabled people.
> It would be nice to be able to map these paths.
>

Are these signed wheelchair routes? If so, i would create a type=route +
route=wheelchair relation. According to Taginfo [1], this tag is in use on
60 relations. Although this tag hasn't been documented, i guess that's what
it's been used for. Additionally, i would tag the paths
wheelchair=designated.

If there are only paths, but no routes, tagging the paths
wheelchair=designated should suffice.

[1]: https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/route=wheelchair

Regards

Markus

>
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Markus]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 18:42 Andreas Lattmann, 
wrote:

> would be included in the relations
>
> I was thinking about this new tag because often particular wheelchairs are
> used, for example: [1] [2]
>
> So if I insert wheelchair = yes what other tag can I use to make it clear
> that special equipment is needed?
>
>
> [1] http://www.dappertutto.org/files/montagna_natura1.jpg
>
> [2]
> https://www.disabili.com/images/stories/disabiliabili/Extreme_X8/carrozzina_elettronica_per_sabbia.jpg


If special wheelchairs are needed, i wouldn't tag the paths wheelchair=yes.
IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs. We may need
a tag for paths accessible for mountain or off-road wheelchairs.
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Markus]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 18:44 Volker Schmidt,  wrote:

> highway=path
>> wheelchair=designated
>>
> This would only be correct if this path is mainly or exclusively for
> wheelchair users.
> I presume thet the majority of hiking routes for wheelchair users do not
> exclude other users, they are likely to be shared with pedestrians,
> possibly also cyclists.
>

*=designated may ban other means of transport (depending on the
jurisdiction) when used with legal access keys. But as i understand it, the
wheelchair key isn't a *legal* access key like vehicle, bicycle or foot,
but indicates *possible* access. Therefore, wheelchair=designates shouldn't
be a problem, but i have to admit that it's imperfect.

Thus, contrary to what i wrote before, for wheelchair routes,
route=wheelchair on the relation and wheelchair=yes on the paths seems
better.
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Il giorno 18 giu 2019, alle ore 16:40, Paul Allen  ha 
> scritto:
> 
> If you add
> wheelchair=yes to a hiking trail it is implicit that it is for hiking in a 
> wheelchair.


we could use wheelchair=designated 
https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/wheelchair#value

it seems the best choice from those 
values with significant usage.

if we would use “yes” we could not distinguish those which are promoted from 
those that are simply suitable ;-)

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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Andreas Lattmann]

>IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs.

For the paths that are accessible with normal wheelchairs, I have no doubt: I 
would tag them with wheelchair = yes, it is on the paths that need special 
wheelchairs (4x4, with the help of people etc.) that I don't know how to tag 
them.
This is why I was evaluating a new tag to describe these new paths.

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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Markus]

On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 19:36 Andreas Lattmann, 
wrote:

> >IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs.
>
> For the paths that are accessible with normal wheelchairs, I have no
> doubt: I would tag them with wheelchair = yes, it is on the paths that need
> special wheelchairs (4x4, with the help of people etc.) that I don't know
> how to tag them.
> This is why I was evaluating a new tag to describe these new paths.
>

If you want to use a new tag for special wheelchairs, i think the
wheelchair type should rather be a key than a value, that is,
=yes/no (or wheelchair:=yes/no) instead of
wheelchair=. Unfortunately, I don't know about special
wheelchair types to give you any advice on how to name the tags.

>
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[marc marc]

Le 18.06.19 à 22:07, Markus a écrit :
> If you want to use a new tag for special wheelchairs

the example has little to do with wheelchairs, a paraplegic,
a blind person, a patient could just as easily go for a walk
the itinerary seems to describe + the activity of an association
or group of people. I have trouble imagining which tag could be used,
it probably has more its place in umap, like any other event
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Nick Bolten]

> IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic wheelchairs.

Yes, but it's something that is frequently difficult to estimate. In
interviews with wheelchair users, many will give strong opinions about what
they personally think is accessible and their responses vary more than most
people expect. A few have even shared strong opinions about what they
believe all/most wheelchair users care about, even though a large
proportion of wheelchair users would actually disagree (for example,
avoiding curbs).

It might be helpful to break this down into examples comparing what
information the mapper has vs. what information the tag contains.

# In the case suggested by Andreas:

The mapper knows: that hiking associations have been creating hiking paths
in Italy that are deemed wheelchair-accessible by some metric. I don't know
what the metric is, but the effort sounds great!
The tag confers: that most wheelchair users can use that path.
The disconnects:
- The mapper does not actually know that the path is wheelchair-accessible,
they are trusting an authority to make that (complex) determination.
- That authority is not stated anywhere in the tag values so we cannot go
back and reevaluate the tagging based on a new understanding of their
metrics for wheelchair accessibility.
- It is challenging to verify wheelchair=yes on the ground. Except in the
most simple cases (flat, wide, textured concrete), you'd need some kind of
evaluation form based on a study on wheelchair users and statistics on
their use of different paths/barriers.
- How would we ever update this with wheelchair=no based on a ground
survey? Is there a metric for how many wheelchair users can't use the path
and who is collecting that data?

# In a case where an individual is actually at one of the trails and can do
a ground survey:

The mapper knows: what the ground conditions are along the trail.
Potentially, some of the information to look out for: steepness, cross
slopes, rugged terrain, narrow paths, sudden uplifts, stairs,
bollards/posts, surface conditions.
The tag confers: an assessment that most wheelchair users can use that path.
The disconnects:
- The mapper is likely not doing a thorough enough survey to actually know
what percentage of wheelchair users can use it.
- If another mapper uses their own, subjective idea of what counts as
wheelchair-accessible, they could easily disagree with the assessment and
prefer wheelchair=no. Who is right?

If the map simply states wheelchair=yes, a data consumer will not know by
which process the path was evaluated and any guess will end up being wrong
in one of the examples list above.

To address this situation, I recommend keeping the distance between what
the mapper knows and what the tag implies as small as possible. In this
case, what the mappers knows is that an authority (the hiking association)
is labeling the path as wheelchair-friendly, so we need a tag that
communicates, at most, that information. For example:
wheelchair:authorized=.

Best,

Nick

On Tue, Jun 18, 2019 at 10:01 AM Markus  wrote:

> On Tue, 18 Jun 2019, 18:42 Andreas Lattmann, 
> wrote:
>
>> would be included in the relations
>>
>> I was thinking about this new tag because often particular wheelchairs
>> are used, for example: [1] [2]
>>
>> So if I insert wheelchair = yes what other tag can I use to make it clear
>> that special equipment is needed?
>>
>>
>> [1] http://www.dappertutto.org/files/montagna_natura1.jpg
>>
>> [2]
>> https://www.disabili.com/images/stories/disabiliabili/Extreme_X8/carrozzina_elettronica_per_sabbia.jpg
>
>
> If special wheelchairs are needed, i wouldn't tag the paths
> wheelchair=yes. IMO wheelchair=yes means accessible for most basic
> wheelchairs. We may need a tag for paths accessible for mountain or
> off-road wheelchairs.
>
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Re: [Tagging] wheelchair = hiking

[Andreas Lattmann]

>the example has little to do with wheelchairs, a paraplegic,
>a blind person, a patient could just as easily go for a walk

I understand that I did not explain the situation well.  I have seen that 
recently there have been activities that rent 4x4 wheelchairs at the beginning 
of the journey. They also provide the guards: helmet, etc.  they also advertise 
that the route can be done independently because they provide assistance.  
These are routes that are not passable with normal wheelchairs, but 4x4 
electric wheelchairs.  So, from how they advertise, a disabled person can go to 
the beginning of the journey, park the car, rent a 4x4 wheelchair with body 
protection and take the excursion.  I know that in Italy it is still in its 
infancy, and therefore few paths have the 4x4 wheelchair renter and therefore 
there are associations that offer the service of accompanying disabled people 
to the mountains (either with electric wheelchairs or by hand).  So they are 
not only paths made by associations but paths designed by municipalities, 
regions, etc.  There are also paths for blind people (I don't know how to tag 
them) made by the Lombardy region.  On Sunday I will go on the path named 
"Sentiero Sensoriale" dedicated to blind people.  From my previous excursion I 
saw that it has information panels written in Braille.

Cheers 

Andreas
--
I❤️ Software Libero.

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