Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Safwat Halaby]

On Wed, 2017-09-27 at 10:01 -0700, Mark Wagner wrote:
> This isn't a garden center.  A garden center is where you'd go to get
> a
> half-kilo bag of pre-mixed fertilizer, or a tray of seedlings, or
> similar small-scale items.  A farming-supply business is where you'd
> go to get a tank-trailer of anhydrous ammonia, or a thousand...

Sorry.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[ael]

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 08:04:35AM +0700, Dave Swarthout wrote:
> shop=agrarian is terrible, I agree. Is this a shop that caters to
> "agrarians" or does it sell "agrarians"?
> 
> Nor do I like shop=trade, trade=agricultural_supplies. I don't think of
> farming or agriculture as a trade similar to that practiced by a plumber or
> electrician, but maybe that's only me.

It was originally invented for the "building trade", and then got
generalised. In the UK, at least, such shops usually use the term
"trade" which is where it came from. I agree that it is not the most natural
word to use for farming. But the specialist farm "shops", again in the UK,
at least, treat their professional farmer clients, in a similar way
offering accounts, credit, bulk discounts and the like.

So trade has just the same semantics, so it would be redundant to invent
another tag. Not sure what a more general tag would look like. As
pointed out earlier, the same objection could be raised to "shop",
which isn't the first word that comes to mind for the large
establishments, but again shop has come to mean "somewhere that sells
things/services".

Just observations and history.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[ael]

On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 10:03:57AM -0400, Mark Bradley wrote:
> Thanks for all the replies.  It seems there are two already-established 
> tagging schemes for what I want to map.  They are
> 
> 
> 
> shop=agrarian
> 
> or
> 
> shop=trade
> trade=agricultural_supplies

After my last post, I realise that the trade tag has extra information:
professionals are offered additional services such as accounts,
credit, special tax arranagements (at least in some countries), bulk
discounts and the like.

But checking the wiki I see all those agrarian subtags. I guess 
agricultural_supplies=* could be used to add the same information to the
shop=trade version.

Again, just an observation.

ael


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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[François Lacombe]

2017-09-28 1:48 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
> there’s also a proposed relation to map different things on the same node
> (similar to how a multipoligon relation allows to reuse the same geometry
> several times).
>

Hi Martin,

What does this relation look like ?
It's related to what devices=* is intended to but not similar.


2017-09-28 3:17 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout :
>The Wiki article in the link describes only the suffix form of the devices
keyword. Therefore IMO the title of the page is misleading. I found only 2
instances of devices=* in Taginfo. Do you intend to expand the article or
restrict the use of the term devices as a standalone tag?

The devices=* key was introduced in this proposal, accepted last week
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Transformer_extension_proposal

Initially, i really want to introduce an universal key. Nevertheless, a
relevant comment during voting said that devices=* on transformers set on
top of a pole can be confusing: we don't know if devices=* is related to
pole or to transformers (or other features supported by the same pole).
It's not specific to transformers but everytime features are nested or
supported.
Then, the key is devices=* but the example use it as a suffix in this
particular case.
I will find situations where transformers are installed on floor and then,
only devices=* will have to be used. It can be used with telephones or bins
also...

Is there any problem regarding that ?

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-28 14:12 GMT+02:00 François Lacombe :

> 2017-09-28 1:48 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>
>>
>> there’s also a proposed relation to map different things on the same node
>> (similar to how a multipoligon relation allows to reuse the same geometry
>> several times).
>>
>
> Hi Martin,
>
> What does this relation look like ?
>


sorry, could not find the proposal yesterday, it is here:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Node

It lets you map several different things on the same node.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag "agricultural centers"

[Dave Swarthout]

Same with my comment - I don't really have a stake in the outcome of this
discussion. I was merely making an observation that reflects my American
point of view.

>"the same objection could be raised to "shop", which isn't the first word
that comes to mind for the large
> establishments, but again shop has come to mean "somewhere that sells
things/services".

Agreed, the shop tag is already being stretched to the limit IMO; shop=mall
comes to mind immediately

On Thu, Sep 28, 2017 at 6:08 PM, ael  wrote:

> On Wed, Sep 27, 2017 at 10:03:57AM -0400, Mark Bradley wrote:
> > Thanks for all the replies.  It seems there are two already-established
> tagging schemes for what I want to map.  They are
> >
> >
> >
> > shop=agrarian
> >
> > or
> >
> > shop=trade
> > trade=agricultural_supplies
>
> After my last post, I realise that the trade tag has extra information:
> professionals are offered additional services such as accounts,
> credit, special tax arranagements (at least in some countries), bulk
> discounts and the like.
>
> But checking the wiki I see all those agrarian subtags. I guess
> agricultural_supplies=* could be used to add the same information to the
> shop=trade version.
>
> Again, just an observation.
>
> ael
>
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[José G Moya Y .]

Hi, François.
You ask for more examples. I don't know about power lines and transformers,
but these ideas came to my mind:

If you have a street light with a dust bin attached to it, the dust bin
goes in "devices"?

And if you have a bus stop that holds a recycling slot for batteries, the
recycling site goes in "devices" also?

What about a traffic light holding a traffic camera (on top) and a dust bin
(on pole).. ?.

Yours.

José.

2017-09-28 14:26 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

> 2017-09-28 14:12 GMT+02:00 François Lacombe :
>
>> 2017-09-28 1:48 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :
>>
>>>
>>> there’s also a proposed relation to map different things on the same
>>> node (similar to how a multipoligon relation allows to reuse the same
>>> geometry several times).
>>>
>>
>> Hi Martin,
>>
>> What does this relation look like ?
>>
>
>
> sorry, could not find the proposal yesterday, it is here:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Node
>
> It lets you map several different things on the same node.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-28 16:24 GMT+02:00 José G Moya Y. :

> You ask for more examples. I don't know about power lines and
> transformers, but these ideas came to my mind:
> If you have a street light with a dust bin attached to it, the dust bin
> goes in "devices"?
> And if you have a bus stop that holds a recycling slot for batteries, the
> recycling site goes in "devices" also?
> What about a traffic light holding a traffic camera (on top) and a dust
> bin (on pole).. ?.
>


Yes, there are many examples where this can be useful. Think of any pole
with more than one thing attached to it (e.g. several traffic signs,
several antennas, a pole with a traffic sign and a trailblaze sticker, a
guidepost where you want to map individual signs, etc.). Also a tree with
something on it.
Also anything with small extension (e.g. a telephone booth), where you'd
want to add information about something in it or on it.

I prefer the generic solution (node relation) over a specific device
solution, which still doesn't allow for more details (different properties,
layering order, etc.)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: "slogan" tag. Opinions?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-19 9:46 GMT+02:00 SwiftFast :

> Although I agree it's a problem, it's unrelated to the proposal. That's
> a general OSM problem related to chains/brands with repetitive values.
> It's not tag-specific. The same could be said about cuisine, name
> translations, website, operator, etc.




no, because the slogan would always be the same, like a logo it is tied to
the brand (and maybe a geographic area), while the cuisine might vary, the
name is the name of the individual instance and might vary (e.g. petrol
stations), the operator e.g. for McDonald's fast food does vary (it is a
franchise), the website is for the individual instance and should not be a
generic one for all of one brand, etc.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[marc marc]

Hello,

Le 28. 09. 17 à 16:32, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> I prefer the generic solution (node relation) over a specific device 
> solution, which still doesn't allow for more details (different 
> properties, layering order, etc.)

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:devices
devices describe that there are many times the same element,
so it is no additional tag needed to describe
the differences between elements since they are identical.

What you describe (a pole with a traffic sign and a bin for example)
is quite different. it might be interesting to have a mechanism to 
describe this, if at least it was to be supported by the current tools 
(which is always tricky for road signs)

2017-09-28 16:24 GMT+02:00 José G Moya Y.:
 > If you have a street light with a dust bin attached to it,
 > the dust bin goes in "devices"?
no devices=2 mean 2x the same objet (2 bin or 2 transformers)
currently, add bin=yes to the node.

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-28 16:50 GMT+02:00 marc marc :

> Hello,
>
> Le 28. 09. 17 à 16:32, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> > I prefer the generic solution (node relation) over a specific device
> > solution, which still doesn't allow for more details (different
> > properties, layering order, etc.)
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:devices
> devices describe that there are many times the same element,
> so it is no additional tag needed to describe
> the differences between elements since they are identical.



yes, you can only describe "devices" and only identical ones. If voltage or
phases or anything else were different (see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Tagging ) you
won't be able to tag it with this shortcut. If they are identical, it is a
nice way to save work. Not sure how often it would be useful, i.e. if the
effort to support it and the added complexity by introducing it, are
justified by its usefulness.

For steps we have the tag "step_count", maybe a simple "transformer_count"
would be an alternative?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Proposal: "slogan" tag. Opinions?

[Volker Schmidt]

No, also from me.
I do not see any use.
In addition, it would be repetitive, and from time to time you would have
to change them en bloc.



On 28 September 2017 at 16:43, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> 2017-09-19 9:46 GMT+02:00 SwiftFast :
>
>> Although I agree it's a problem, it's unrelated to the proposal. That's
>> a general OSM problem related to chains/brands with repetitive values.
>> It's not tag-specific. The same could be said about cuisine, name
>> translations, website, operator, etc.
>
>
>
>
> no, because the slogan would always be the same, like a logo it is tied to
> the brand (and maybe a geographic area), while the cuisine might vary, the
> name is the name of the individual instance and might vary (e.g. petrol
> stations), the operator e.g. for McDonald's fast food does vary (it is a
> franchise), the website is for the individual instance and should not be a
> generic one for all of one brand, etc.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[José G Moya Y .]

Ok. Now I understand it.
Thanks.

El 28/9/2017 17:04, "Martin Koppenhoefer"  escribió:

>
>
> 2017-09-28 16:50 GMT+02:00 marc marc :
>
>> Hello,
>>
>> Le 28. 09. 17 à 16:32, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
>> > I prefer the generic solution (node relation) over a specific device
>> > solution, which still doesn't allow for more details (different
>> > properties, layering order, etc.)
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:devices
>> devices describe that there are many times the same element,
>> so it is no additional tag needed to describe
>> the differences between elements since they are identical.
>
>
>
> yes, you can only describe "devices" and only identical ones. If voltage
> or phases or anything else were different (see https://wiki.openstreetmap.
> org/wiki/Tag:power%3Dtransformer#Tagging ) you won't be able to tag it
> with this shortcut. If they are identical, it is a nice way to save work.
> Not sure how often it would be useful, i.e. if the effort to support it and
> the added complexity by introducing it, are justified by its usefulness.
>
> For steps we have the tag "step_count", maybe a simple "transformer_count"
> would be an alternative?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
>
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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[marc marc]

Le 28. 09. 17 à 17:02, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> we have the tag "step_count", maybe a simple 
> "transformer_count" would be an alternative?

What would be the advantage of creating a "X_count" tag for each object 
that needs it when a single tag devices is enough to do the same thing ?

Regards,
Marc
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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-28 18:47 GMT+02:00 marc marc :

> Le 28. 09. 17 à 17:02, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> > we have the tag "step_count", maybe a simple
> > "transformer_count" would be an alternative?
>
> What would be the advantage of creating a "X_count" tag for each object
> that needs it when a single tag devices is enough to do the same thing ?



from the wiki page I get the impression that the ":devices" is the same
thing as the "_count", just less meaningful on a semantic level and only
usable for "devices" (e.g. "steps" hardly can't be considered devices). The
intended meaning of "transformer:devices" is the same as
"transformer_count", no?

Cheers,
Martin

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:devices
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Re: [Tagging] Devices key

[François Lacombe]

2017-09-28 19:27 GMT+02:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
> from the wiki page I get the impression that the ":devices" is the same
> thing as the "_count", just less meaningful on a semantic level and only
> usable for "devices" (e.g. "steps" hardly can't be considered devices). The
> intended meaning of "transformer:devices" is the same as
> "transformer_count", no?
>

The page example section is far from complete.

The issue with the only example provided is we can't know if devices=*
applies to pole or to transformer or to any other devices supported by the
pole (a bin for instance).
That's why I put transformer:devices=*
The issue occurs on any supported device vs supporting one.

But in general, when there are only features without any pole/wall/whatever
support, devices=* is better than any x_count=*

Everything would be good only if a solution for supported devices rise up


François
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[Tagging] Public wifi

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Hi

Noticed in the discussion of the devices tag, mention of devices attached
to telephone booths, which got me thinking.

Here in Australia, Telstra provides public wifi access via it's Telstra Air
network (https://www.telstra.com.au/telstra-air), which is also linked to
the international Fon network (https://network.fon.com/).

A lot / most of Telstra's wifi spots are mounted on public telephone boxes
(the pink bit's shown on the above link :-)) - I don't know about Fon?

So, do we have a tag for public wifi / internet spots?

I can't see anything for one, but I guess it would come under amenity=*,
same as amenity=telephone for public phones?

If we don't, should we?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Public wifi (Fon)

[André Pirard]

On 2017-09-29 02:22, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> Hi
>
> Noticed in the discussion of the devices tag, mention of devices
> attached to telephone booths, which got me thinking.
>
> Here in Australia, Telstra provides public wifi access via it's
> Telstra Air network (https://www.telstra.com.au/telstra-air), which is
> also linked to the international Fon network (https://network.fon.com/).
>
> A lot / most of Telstra's wifi spots are mounted on public telephone
> boxes (the pink bit's shown on the above link :-)) - I don't know
> about Fon?
Fon works as a public service on consenting private WiFi routers
.
The router software completely isolates the private and public parts of
the router
Access to any working Fon router is granted to anyone who consents to
open the service on his own router or for a price. Consenting people are
charged on their home bill the traffic they use elsewhere.
Usually, router users are unaware of Fon and are consenting by default.
It would, of course, be a totally useless chore to update Fon comes and
goes on OSM and to duplicate the Fon map.

Cheers

André.


> So, do we have a tag for public wifi / internet spots? 
>
> I can't see anything for one, but I guess it would come under
> amenity=*, same as amenity=telephone for public phones?
>
> If we don't, should we?  
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme


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Re: [Tagging] Public wifi

[Marc Gemis]

Does  https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:internet_access cover your needs ?
They also explain why it is not under amenity.

regards

m.

On Fri, Sep 29, 2017 at 2:22 AM, Graeme Fitzpatrick
 wrote:
> Hi
>
> Noticed in the discussion of the devices tag, mention of devices attached to
> telephone booths, which got me thinking.
>
> Here in Australia, Telstra provides public wifi access via it's Telstra Air
> network (https://www.telstra.com.au/telstra-air), which is also linked to
> the international Fon network (https://network.fon.com/).
>
> A lot / most of Telstra's wifi spots are mounted on public telephone boxes
> (the pink bit's shown on the above link :-)) - I don't know about Fon?
>
> So, do we have a tag for public wifi / internet spots?
>
> I can't see anything for one, but I guess it would come under amenity=*,
> same as amenity=telephone for public phones?
>
> If we don't, should we?
>
> Thanks
>
> Graeme
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public wifi (Fon)

[Warin]

On 29-Sep-17 11:03 AM, André Pirard wrote:

On 2017-09-29 02:22, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:

Hi

Noticed in the discussion of the devices tag, mention of devices 
attached to telephone booths, which got me thinking.


Here in Australia, Telstra provides public wifi access via it's 
Telstra Air network (https://www.telstra.com.au/telstra-air), which 
is also linked to the international Fon network 
(https://network.fon.com/).


A lot / most of Telstra's wifi spots are mounted on public telephone 
boxes (the pink bit's shown on the above link :-)) - I don't know 
about Fon?
Fon works as a public service on consenting private WiFi routers 
.
The router software completely isolates the private and public parts 
of the router
Access to any working Fon router is granted to anyone who consents to 
open the service on his own router or for a price. Consenting people 
are charged on their home bill the traffic they use elsewhere.

Usually, router users are unaware of Fon and are consenting by default.
It would, of course, be a totally useless chore to update Fon comes 
and goes on OSM and to duplicate the Fon map.


Cheers

André.



So, do we have a tag for public wifi / internet spots?

I can't see anything for one, but I guess it would come under 
amenity=*, same as amenity=telephone for public phones?



Free internet tagged as

internet_access=wlan
fee=yes/no (yes = free)
access=public

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:internet_access%3Dwlan

As per the above OSMwiki don't use amenity=*.


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