Re: [Tagging] Fire hydrants vs suction_point

[Moritz]

Hi all.

I'm back from vacation and see that there was a huge progress in the 
proposal.


And there seems to be a consensus for grouping all things where 
firefighters can attach their pump under emergency=fire_hydrant.


But I think there are some issues left:

# Fire Water wells

A pipe connected not to a pond but to the groundwater.

Should be

water_source=groundwater

How to tag the water level (distance between water level and ground 
level)?


water_level=6 (in meters) ?

Also there are water wells which have a water level below approx 8 m and 
due to physics there is an additional pump needed. This pump is 
integrated in the
water well at water level and is either driven by electricity or 
external applied water pressure.


The pressure tag is not suitable for it as the water does not need to be 
sucked out and the pressure is not known.
But the information is important for fire fighters to know which 
additional equipment they need.


pump_type=bilge_pump|electric_pump|none ?


# Water tanks

water_source=water_tank

The capacity of the water_tank should also be attached to the hydrant.

water_volume=small|medium|large|# (small 75–150 m^3, medium) 150–300 m^3 
and large>300 m^3 or numeric value).


# Fire water pond

water_volume=# (numeric value in m^3).

# fire_hydrant:class=*

Should be clarified what AA, A, B, C means.

Cheers
Moritz

Am 2017-09-06 00:24, schrieb Viking:

Hi all.

@Marc

and is this tag well used? I am not able to judge whether values are 
realistic


Well, as in every tag, there are wrong values. But now, with a more
clear description on the wiki, there will be less errors and future
corrections will be possible.
Anyway all values of fire_hydrant:diameter=# should go in the new tag
diameter=#, or whatever else we choose.


what do others think? if somebody find it is not appropriate, I think 
that it would be desirable to split out the "meaning change"

to validate the rest of the proposal.


At this point, after the discussion of pros and cons, I think that the
"meaning change" has no more sense.


@Francois:

fire_hydrant:count=#  -->  devices=#

+1 I'm against grouping more than one hydrant one a node, but if we
want to keep this possibility, devices=# for me is better.


A pressurized hydrant : emergency=fire_hydrant + optional 
water_source=network + even more optional pressure=*

A pillar connected to a water tank where water can be pumped from :
emergency=fire_hydrant + water_source=water_tank + pressure=0
A pipe going permanently in a river or a pond where water can be 
pumped from :

emergency=fire_hydrant + water_source=pond + pressure=0


+1


@Martin:


unfortunately this is not yet defined unambiguously


In hydraulics in general, the diameter is the nominal one [0] that is
related but not equal to the inner diameter. On hydrants in
particular, the number that is die-casted on them, is the nominal
diameter of the undergound junction towards the water network.
Also couplings diameters are always nominal diameters of the threads 
[1].

Maybe it is enough to document on the wiki that when diameter=* is
used for hydrants, it is referred to nominal diameter?


Not sure about pressure=0 though, shouldn't that be 1? The wiki 
mentions also "suction" for dry hydrants


In hydraulics, pressure normally is measured relatively to atmospheric
pressure. So 0 is correct. However, to avoid misunderstandings, we can
keep pressure=suction for these cases.

Best regards,
Alberto

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_Pipe_Size
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread





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Re: [Tagging] phone validity - phone "preset"

[Tom Pfeifer]

On 06.09.2017 06:56, André Pirard wrote:


I'll suggest this to JOSM and they'll probably do it. They're the best.


Found your ticket opened here:
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/15250

Looking into iD, I browsed the tickets for 'phone',
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/search?p=1&q=phone&type=Issues
they seem to have some national templates, but a strict compliance check was 
rejected here:
https://github.com/openstreetmap/iD/issues/2704

Maybe an iD user could check the current behaviour.

tom


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Re: [Tagging] farm schools?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-04 23:54 GMT+02:00 Tom Pfeifer :

> On 04.09.2017 22:01, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
>> On 4. Sep 2017, at 21:45, José G Moya Y.  wrote:
>>> In Spanish it is farm_school.
>>>
>> in italian it's "fattoria didattica" (didactic farm), in German there are
>> different terms in use, e.g. Jugendfarm, Kinderbauernhof.
>>
>
> Hm, in Berlin we have some tagged as
>
> landuse=farmyard + tourism=zoo + zoo=petting_zoo and some description.
> This tagging style would have a focus on farm animals (vs. growing plants)
>
> zoo=petting_zoo is currently defined as "Small zoo or garden for kids to
> touch and play with animals"



yes, I have seen this, and knowing two examples in Berlin (Görlitzer Park
and Mauerpark) I agree that this tagging is working for these cases. But
IMHO it isn't working for actual farms in the countryside where food
production is a significant part of their business, but which are also
explicitly open to visiting families or school classes. And as you notice
correctly, it doesn't refer to growing plants in any way. I believe many of
the rural examples don't qualify as any kind of zoo.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - River Classification

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

I see an issue with judging on a national level (if I didn't get you
wrong). The biggest rivers should compete internationally, while for
smaller ones a regional relative classification would make more sense
(absolute numbers are not very suitable for smaller rivers as there are big
differences in the total amount of water in a region). A "major" river in
Luxembourg is not comparable to the Nile, the Amazonas or the Mississippi.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Fire hydrants vs suction_point

[Warin]

On 06-Sep-17 05:57 PM, Moritz wrote:


Hi all.

I'm back from vacation and see that there was a huge progress in the 
proposal.


And there seems to be a consensus for grouping all things where 
firefighters can attach their pump under emergency=fire_hydrant.
Where there is a dedicated pipe/hydrant. Where there is a 'Static Water 
Supply' then there are usually no formal fittings of any description.


But I think there are some issues left:

# Fire Water wells

A pipe connected not to a pond but to the groundwater.

Should be

water_source=groundwater

How to tag the water level (distance between water level and ground 
level)?


water_level=6 (in meters) ?

Also there are water wells which have a water level below approx 8 m 
and due to physics there is an additional pump needed. This pump is 
integrated in the
water well at water level and is either driven by electricity or 
external applied water pressure.


Humm water level is usually taken as the height reached by the water, 
from the bottom of a well/dam/tank.
If you are sucking then you might get to the bottom .. so you would need 
equipment to get to the very base of the water.
Must be a better term for this parameter? You want the dimension from 
the pump point to the minimum (most distant height) water level.




The pressure tag is not suitable for it as the water does not need to 
be sucked out and the pressure is not known.
But the information is important for fire fighters to know which 
additional equipment they need.


pump_type=bilge_pump|electric_pump|none ?


# Water tanks

water_source=water_tank

The capacity of the water_tank should also be attached to the hydrant.

water_volume=small|medium|large|# (small 75–150 m^3, medium) 150–300 
m^3 and large>300 m^3 or numeric value).


# Fire water pond

water_volume=# (numeric value in m^3).


Around me capacity is stated in litres? So this could be a optional unit.
I'd rather not see a small|medium|large value. But I suppose some one 
will want it, though the numbers for hte differences will probably be 
argued over. Place the numeric value first and state it as a preference?




# fire_hydrant:class=*

Should be clarified what AA, A, B, C means.

Cheers
Moritz

Am 2017-09-06 00:24, schrieb Viking:

Hi all.

@Marc

and is this tag well used? I am not able to judge whether values are 
realistic


Well, as in every tag, there are wrong values. But now, with a more
clear description on the wiki, there will be less errors and future
corrections will be possible.
Anyway all values of fire_hydrant:diameter=# should go in the new tag
diameter=#, or whatever else we choose.


what do others think? if somebody find it is not appropriate, I 
think that it would be desirable to split out the "meaning change"

to validate the rest of the proposal.


At this point, after the discussion of pros and cons, I think that the
"meaning change" has no more sense.


@Francois:

fire_hydrant:count=#  -->  devices=#

+1 I'm against grouping more than one hydrant one a node, but if we
want to keep this possibility, devices=# for me is better.


A pressurized hydrant : emergency=fire_hydrant + optional 
water_source=network + even more optional pressure=*

A pillar connected to a water tank where water can be pumped from :
emergency=fire_hydrant + water_source=water_tank + pressure=0
A pipe going permanently in a river or a pond where water can be 
pumped from :

emergency=fire_hydrant + water_source=pond + pressure=0


+1


@Martin:


unfortunately this is not yet defined unambiguously


In hydraulics in general, the diameter is the nominal one [0] that is
related but not equal to the inner diameter. On hydrants in
particular, the number that is die-casted on them, is the nominal
diameter of the undergound junction towards the water network.
Also couplings diameters are always nominal diameters of the threads 
[1].

Maybe it is enough to document on the wiki that when diameter=* is
used for hydrants, it is referred to nominal diameter?


Not sure about pressure=0 though, shouldn't that be 1? The wiki 
mentions also "suction" for dry hydrants


In hydraulics, pressure normally is measured relatively to atmospheric
pressure. So 0 is correct. However, to avoid misunderstandings, we can
keep pressure=suction for these cases.

Best regards,
Alberto

[0] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nominal_Pipe_Size
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ISO_metric_screw_thread





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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=clothes subtags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-08-30 6:42 GMT+02:00 Marc Gemis :

> And of course there will be shops that sell both, that is
> because the world is not black & white. Whatever classification (tags)
> you choose,  there will be exceptions.



+1
my favorite one is this:
http://www.23hq.com/dieterdreist/photo/7089481?album_id=4237494
An optician also selling delicatessen (or maybe a delicatessen store also
selling glasses).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=clothes subtags

[Jean-Marc Liotier]

On Wed, 6 Sep 2017 13:40:16 +0200
Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
>
> my favorite one is this:
> http://www.23hq.com/dieterdreist/photo/7089481?album_id=4237494
> An optician also selling delicatessen (or maybe a delicatessen store
> also selling glasses).

http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2217707756 - Khai Tri is a Vietnamese
bookshop in Paris, whose best known feature is the bánh mì sandwiches
stand at the back of the shop... For now in Openstreetmap it is only a
bookshop.

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging data where position is not yet known

[Dave F]

Hi

I've use fixme= inaccurate location to indicate entities known to exist 
but not their exact location (say 100-200m)


Use fixme as they are flagged by OSM validators 
(https://www.keepright.at/report_map.php?zoom=14&lat=8.46549&lon=-13.20959&layers=B0T&ch=0%2C170&show_ign=1&show_tmpign=1) 



Cheers
DaveF

On 03/09/2017 22:35, ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com wrote:


Hi all,

I am looking for comments and advice regarding this.

I am working with a group of local mappers in Sierra Leone, Africa, 
under the name WAMM (West Africa Motorbike Mappers). They are trying 
to find and identify all the towns, villages, hamlets in Sierra Leone 
and have completed one whole District (Kailahun) and are well into 
their second District (Kenema). At each community they take a GPS 
reading to fix where they are (lat and long supplied) and then ask 
prominent locals (chief/headman/etc) for the name, historical name, 
any alternate names. They have also supplied other important data for 
the community such as the existence of a market and which days it is 
open, also the existence of a water pump. Unfortunately, while they 
have confirmed the existence of the latter two they have not 
identified their position.


The names of towns and villages were originally added in 2014 first by 
*rwst* with /source=GNS/ and /gns_ufi=* /and in 2014 by Pierzen_import 
adding Sierra Leone place nodes and Unocha pcodes.


WAMM have supplied a spreadsheet with the data collected and want to 
know if it can be added to OpenStreetMap. There are a lot of new names 
of smaller communities and confirmation of the names that the locals 
call their communities. This is not a problem and can be checked 
against the existing data already on OpenStreetMap.


I want to know how you feel about adding the market and water_pump 
data that does not yet exist on the map. In Africa the existence of a 
market and/or a water_pump is not only important information for the 
locals, it is important information for any medical or humanitarian 
teams carrying out any assessment or intervention in the area. I wish 
to add this data to the map near the name of the community with a 
fixme stating that the existence has been confirmed but the location 
is not yet known. The fact that it is there will be spotted by 
subsequent mappers and hopefully they will be able to move it to it’s 
correct location.


Look forward to hearing from you.

Regards

Ralph (RAytoun)

Sent from Mail  for 
Windows 10




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Re: [Tagging] Toll road sections

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28. Aug 2017, at 16:35, Dömötör Ákos  wrote:
> 
> Naturally, I was already planning to add the "toll:hgv=yes" for each road in 
> question.


what about toll:hgv:ref=* ?


cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] phone validity - phone "preset"

[Mark Wagner]

It would help even more if the editors understood local phone number
formats, and could automatically turn (202)-456-1414 or 041 58 460 55
11 into the appropriate international format.

-- 
Mark

On Tue, 5 Sep 2017 19:01:44 +
Lukas Sommer  wrote:

> It would likely yet help a lot if th editors would simply check if
> 
> - the number does not start with “+”
> - the number (after the starting “+” sign) contains other characters
> then digits, spaces (and maybe dashes).
> 
> This is quite simple and could nevertheless catch yet a lot of issues…
> 
> 2017-09-05 16:51 GMT, marc marc :
> > Hello,
> >
> > on the french-speaking mailing, a contributor noticed a high rate
> > of incorrect value for the tag "phone". the most common error is
> > using the national format number instead of the international
> > format.
> >
> > A monthly project 'll maybe fix some of those errors.
> > Some quality tool can help those fix.
> >
> > But the best would be to avoid the mistake when a user fill
> > in the data in iD, josm or whatever.
> >
> > Is anyone aware of a kind of "preset" that can be used for phone ?
> > Otherwise it would be useful to create with local communities a wiki
> > page containing a list of valid prefixes example + 322xxx is
> > valid, +331 also but 01 is not valid in France.
> > Or using something like
> > https://github.com/googlei18n/libphonenumber/
> > https://github.com/googlei18n/libphonenumber/blob/master/FAQ.md#where-do-we-get-information-from-to-determine-if-a-number-range-is-valid
> >
> > Would it also be useful to put a corrective suggestion?
> > for example 01 #+331
> >
> > Of course, I am not talking about the exact form of the list,
> > nor the fact that some countries will have a list,
> > while others not.
> > nor the difficulty when a poi has several corresponding numbers
> > attached several countries.
> > I 'm talking about the general guideline.
> >
> > The aim is not to forbid some values but to allow
> > common editor to guide the user to avoid a very common error.
> > ___
> > Tagging mailing list
> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >  
> 
> 


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - shop=clothes subtags

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-09-06 13:50 GMT+02:00 Jean-Marc Liotier :

>
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2217707756 - Khai Tri is a Vietnamese
> bookshop in Paris, whose best known feature is the bánh mì sandwiches
> stand at the back of the shop... For now in Openstreetmap it is only a
> bookshop.
>


Tuba is a sexshop for women, but also selling books and operating a
cafe/bar:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/258081023

As the sexshop property is not very prominent in the shop I decided to
classify it as a bookshop and cafe.

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Power Transformer extension

[François Lacombe]

Hi all,

The voting phase for the proposal regarding power transformers starts today
for 15 days.
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Transformer_extension_proposal

It introduces a few tags about a very technical subject.
Data might not be available everywhere, the goal was to provide a
consistent structure to gather data when open. The focus is made on
structure and semantics.

RFC brought its load of edits and adjustments, thank you to anyone
involved. Currently, tags look ready to be used.

Everyone is encouraged to have a look to tags, and give feedback with or
without technical background.

Thank you in advance to spend a little time on it, all the best

*François*
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[Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters to be used in times of
natural disasters?

Off the top of my head I could see tags such as

emergency=shelter
protects_from=
  wind
  flood
  radiation/nuclear fallout
  fire
  earthquake
  bomb blast
pet=yes/no
bed=yes/no
water=yes/no
food=yes/no
medical_aid=yes/no
open=yes/no
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Gerd Petermann]

I think amenity=shelter is well established, see
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag%3Aamenity%3Dshelter

Gerd

Von: Nick Hocking 
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 7. September 2017 05:48:36
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

Do we have a tagging scheme for emergency shelters to be used in times of 
natural disasters?

Off the top of my head I could see tags such as

emergency=shelter
protects_from=
  wind
  flood
  radiation/nuclear fallout
  fire
  earthquake
  bomb blast
pet=yes/no
bed=yes/no
water=yes/no
food=yes/no
medical_aid=yes/no
open=yes/no

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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Gerd wrote

"I think amenity=shelter is well established  "

Yes, I read that but saw that it said  "a small place", so it doesn't seem
appropriate for disaster relief situations.
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Marc Gemis]

The social facility shelter
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
mentions emergency shelter.


m.

On Thu, Sep 7, 2017 at 6:44 AM, Nick Hocking  wrote:
> Gerd wrote
>
> "I think amenity=shelter is well established  "
>
> Yes, I read that but saw that it said  "a small place", so it doesn't seem
> appropriate for disaster relief situations.
>
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency shelters

[Nick Hocking]

Marc wrote
"The social facility shelter
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:social_facility%3Dshelter
mentions emergency shelter."

Yes it does, although I would think that these would usually be of limited
capacity and meant for use at all times.

I think we need  tagging for large scale relief centres that would be open
(and known to be open) if, and only if, a state of emergency has been
declared.
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