Re: [Tagging] source tag on object <> changeset
Hi marc, I am one that checks both the source and the history of changes to understand why a features was created and from where. JOSM does already have a history and can be accessed by selecting the feature then holding down the Ctrl key and pressing h. The history comes up in a separate window with the changesets as well. Source tags are very useful especially if done correctly. I rate a GPS, Field Survey or Local Knowledge quite high because it means someone has actually been there and seen it. I add the date of my visit to a place in my changeset comment for that reason. It also helps to identify how old my knowledge is. The date of change I can also get from Ctrl + h. The background imagery (Bing) can be anything up to 6 years old in many places and at best about 2 years old so it is not reliable for up-to-date information. Sent from Mail for Windows 10 From: marc marc Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2017 11:11 PM To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools Subject: [Tagging] source tag on object <> changeset I create a new thread because it have no link with a tree :-) Le 22. 07. 17 à 22:20, ael a écrit : > On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 08:51:16PM +0200, Simon Poole wrote: >> a) good practice to tag source on the changeset. > I always include a fairly comprehensive list > of sources on changesets, but *need* individual source tags > on objects. Otherwise, subsequent mappers come along with > far inferior information and wipe out my many hours/days/years of > careful work on the ground. This problem exists for any tag. Where does the localization for a crossing come from? Gps / aerial? What is the date of this ? I don't imagine that we triple all the tag to have source+date just in case someone doesn't read changesets when he thinks that an object needs improvement. If he doesn't read changesets, will he pay attention to your source tag? In my edit, I delete often previous source tag. Because if I modify an object after survey, a previous source=bing for example on an object no longer say anything usefull. I don't add source tag on object for the same reason. What would be useful is to have a link beside each tag indicating the last changeset that touched it. Or maybe a josm plugin can parse the history of the object Regards, Marc ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] source tag on object <> changeset
Hi Ralph, in which cases do you check the history ? If I have a photo (or any other survey material) that show a different reality than what is mapped, why would I then check the source ? It's only when I have no survey material (and I'm armchair mapping from e.g. aerial imagery ) that a source might be handy. Although I find the date of the mapping/source is more important (so it's good that you add that, I do the same BTW). BTW, armchair mapping can also happen when you add e.g. sheds that are not visible from the road, but only on aerial imagery. Even when you surveyed the road. Armchair mapping is also done by anyone remotely checking other's work, e.g. checking the work of new mappers, checks performed by DWG, etc. For this type of work sources are probably useful, but for someone purely mapping survey material ? regards m On Tue, Jul 25, 2017 at 9:01 AM, wrote: > Hi marc, > > > > I am one that checks both the source and the history of changes to > understand why a features was created and from where. > > > > JOSM does already have a history and can be accessed by selecting the > feature then holding down the Ctrl key and pressing h. The history comes up > in a separate window with the changesets as well. > > > > Source tags are very useful especially if done correctly. I rate a GPS, > Field Survey or Local Knowledge quite high because it means someone has > actually been there and seen it. I add the date of my visit to a place in my > changeset comment for that reason. It also helps to identify how old my > knowledge is. The date of change I can also get from Ctrl + h. The > background imagery (Bing) can be anything up to 6 years old in many places > and at best about 2 years old so it is not reliable for up-to-date > information. > > > > Sent from Mail for Windows 10 > > > > From: marc marc > Sent: Saturday, July 22, 2017 11:11 PM > To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools > Subject: [Tagging] source tag on object <> changeset > > > > I create a new thread because it have no link with a tree :-) > > > > Le 22. 07. 17 à 22:20, ael a écrit : > >> On Sat, Jul 22, 2017 at 08:51:16PM +0200, Simon Poole wrote: > >>> a) good practice to tag source on the changeset. > >> I always include a fairly comprehensive list > >> of sources on changesets, but *need* individual source tags > >> on objects. Otherwise, subsequent mappers come along with > >> far inferior information and wipe out my many hours/days/years of > >> careful work on the ground. > > This problem exists for any tag. Where does the localization for a > > crossing come from? Gps / aerial? What is the date of this ? > > I don't imagine that we triple all the tag to have source+date just in > > case someone doesn't read changesets when he thinks that an object needs > > improvement. > > If he doesn't read changesets, will he pay attention to your source tag? > > In my edit, I delete often previous source tag. > > Because if I modify an object after survey, a previous source=bing for > > example on an object no longer say anything usefull. > > I don't add source tag on object for the same reason. > > What would be useful is to have a link beside each tag indicating the > > last changeset that touched it. > > Or maybe a josm plugin can parse the history of the object > > > > Regards, > > Marc > > ___ > > Tagging mailing list > > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] source tag on object <> changeset
Hello Ralph, I also use josm and his history/changeset/diff function, is's nice. But as you said yourself, all info you put at the chansetset level are easy to read... if other mapper want it ! So if comment/source/date is in changeset tag, why duplicate it on every object ? just in case that a mapper 'll read source tag on object not on changeset ? I don't thing so. I often see small localization errors. When I spent time to understand it, it's common that someone make for exemple a "way align" using old bing picture. The previous source tag on this object is therefore wrong. It's why I never trust a source tag on object. You can never know if this is right or if someone has changed the object in the meantime without changing the tag. Therefore, it is necessary to read the history to know if the source source tag on the object is a duplicated information or outdated information. Because you still need to read the changeset history, source tag on object are useless. Source tag on object is like giving two sheets of paper to a blind man. a real problem (some people doesn't read) but a bad solution (duplicate information that become out-of-sync) We need to talk to people who doens't take care of previous source. That the only way to make them aware. It would be also useful that editors (including Id), when someone edits a tag, parse the history to display the source/comment/date/chanset that changed this tag for the last time. This could raise awareness people who think their source is always the best and the only uptodate. In an ideal world, it would also be necessary for editor to know the date of the imagery currently used to warn the user when imagery is older that the last used source. Regards, Marc Le 25. 07. 17 à 09:01, ralph.ayt...@ntlworld.com a écrit : > I rate a GPS, Field Survey or Local Knowledge quite high > because it means someone has actually been there and seen it. > I add the date of my visit to a place in my changeset comment ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names containing abbreviations that are the official name
sent from a phone > On 25. Jul 2017, at 08:41, Colin Smale wrote: > > Unless the word is "St." for Saint in English where there is no evidence that > the full spelling is ever, ever used. rarely, there are some examples though, like Saint Petersburg or Saint Peter's tomb: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Saint_Peter%27s_tomb http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/421007 official page of Saint Peter's Basilica in Rome: http://www.vaticanstate.va/content/vaticanstate/en/monumenti/basilica-di-s-pietro.html Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] source tag on object <> changeset
sent from a phone > On 25. Jul 2017, at 10:17, Marc Gemis wrote: > > in which cases do you check the history ? If I have a photo (or any > other survey material) that show a different reality than what is > mapped, why would I then check the source ? +1, I also see no point in these source tags, either the information is correct or I'll correct it, I don't mind where the problem comes from (outdated imagery, bad interpretation of imagery, a change to the real world object, a confused mapper, etc.). Source tags mostly serve armchair mappers, who don't know the situation on the ground so they have to guess whether their own guess is better than what is mapped --- simply don't do it ;-) The only reason I add source tags to changesets is hoping that armchair mappers will refrain from modifying things that are survey based, if they only use aerial imagery without on the ground knowledge. Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Names containing abbreviations that are the official name
Saint Paul - but that certainly is an exception. I was using a garmin gps device to navigate about 4 years ago. As I entered Mount Vernon, WA the voice called it Mountain Vernon. Albert Pundt suggestion to use offical_name or name_official would help. But keeping with OSM ground truth, we could use the official name, for example name='St. Louis' and name_full='Saint Louis' for pronunciation. Clifford On Mon, Jul 24, 2017 at 11:41 PM, Colin Smale wrote: > Unless the word is "St." for Saint in English where there is no evidence > that the full spelling is ever, ever used. > > And including the word "Township" in the name may also be considered > "tagging for the renderer". This place sounds like it is a "township" by > virtue of some act of incorporation and its name is defined as "Mt. > Lebanon" (or "Mount Lebanon"). > > On 2017-07-25 08:18, marc marc wrote: > > yes. > name = full name without abbreviation > official_name = like in government use. > > -- > Le 25. 07. 17 à 03:16, Albert Pundt a écrit : > > I know abbreviated names are frowned upon in OSM, but what about places > like towns where the abbreviation is part of the official name? For > example, Mt. Lebanon Township in Allegheny County, PA (near Pittsburgh). > It is officially, in all government documents, named "Mt. Lebanon" > (though the postal service continues to use its original official name > Mount Lebanon), but OSM guidelines would have it mapped as "Mount > Lebanon" as it is currently mapped. > > Presumably cases like these still follow the OSM guideline? Perhaps > "official_name=Mt. Lebanon Township" should be used as well? > > --Albert > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > > -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
