Re: [Tagging] Added tables for values to key produce

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15 Jan 2017, at 22:26, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> "Unprocessed wood"? What does that mean? Trees or parts of trees cut down ... 
> with nothing else done to them? Around we go... Do you have a better 
> definition that suits this application?


I'd say this disambiguation page of wp should very likely be corrected because 
it not only contradicts the dictionary definition but also wp owns definition 
that is given on the article page linked there, where it states in the first 
paragraph: "Lumber (American English;[1]used only in North America), or 
timber(used in the rest of the English speaking world[2]) is wood that has been 
processed into beams and planks, a stage in the process of wood production. "

Disclaimer: I am not a native English speaker and have to resort to 
dictionaries. 

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Re: [Tagging] Added tables for values to key produce

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 15 Jan 2017, at 22:26, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Macquarie Dictionary (Australian)  has 10 definitions of 'timber' ... chose 
> the most appropriate for use in this situation.


they are behind a paywall so I can't read these 10 definitions. Looking at the 
oxford dictionary it appears to refer to wood cut/sawn into beams or planks: 
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/timber
Also the etymology refers to construction 


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[Tagging] memorial:type and memorial

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

What is the "type" or "kind" of a memorial?
There are currently different ideas crammed together in the subkeys, some
referring to the physical appearance, others referring to the topic or
scope/reason.

E.g. the suggested/documented tags:
memorial:type/memorial=plaque
memorial:type/memorial=plate
memorial:type/memorial=statue
memorial=bust
memorial:type/memorial=stele
memorial=stone
memorial:type/memorial=obelisk

all refer to the physical aspect of the memorial.

The suggested tag:
memorial=war_memorial refers to the topic of the memorial

the suggested tags
memorial:type/memorial=stolperstein
memorial=blue_plaque
because they are very specific, refer to both, the physical aspect and the
topic/scope.

IMHO we should have distinct tags for these properties, because they occur
indepently/are different properties.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

[Marc Zoutendijk]

Earlier I wrote:

> I found many uses of landuse=village_green that _completely_ignore_ the core 
> definition in the wiki!
> I made some screenshotes (from overpass) to inspect (I have used the color 
> red to show the usage):
> 
> https://marczoutendijk.stackstorage.com/s/PruVaYiH5AgdRQO 
> 
> https://marczoutendijk.stackstorage.com/s/64YFp8c0jLch6aD 
> 
> https://marczoutendijk.stackstorage.com/s/YS4ghoklDNdBGSE 
> 
> https://marczoutendijk.stackstorage.com/s/FFOD0zEB7KMuudL 
> 
> 
> 

> Is that a Village Green according to the wiki?
> Don’t make me laugh!
> 
> What function do the wiki’s have in the OSM world?

From other mappers I heard that the wiki should describe what mappers _do_ map, 
not what they _should_ map.
For landuse=grass there was some debate over the change of the wiki by a user, 
replacing what we do map by what that user thinks we should map.

For landuse=village_green the practical use of that tagging is highly different 
(but not everywhere) from what the wiki states.
Hence I have _added_ a few lines to the wiki, explaining that the use of 
village_green on the map, differs from what’s in the wiki.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green 

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:landuse 



Marc.



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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2017-01-16 11:26 GMT+01:00 Marc Zoutendijk :

> From other mappers I heard that the wiki should describe what mappers _do_
> map, not what they _should_ map.
>


it should document the consensus. Often the definition of tags is the
result of a proposal and voting. Now if a significant amount of people were
to use the tags nonetheless in a different way with respect to what has
been agreed upon via the proposal process, this can (should) be noted on
the tag definition page, but not necessarily has it to influence the
definition itself (=what the tag should mean), it could be done in a way
that users become aware of the problem without changing the actual
definition (i.e. as a note to the page).



> For landuse=grass there was some debate over the change of the wiki by a
> user, replacing what we do map by what that user thinks we should map.
>


to be fair, it is not just one user who thinks there is a problem with
landuse=grass, it has been noted on various occasions that "grass" is not a
use.



>
> For landuse=village_green the practical use of that tagging is highly
> different (but not everywhere) from what the wiki states.
> Hence I have _added_ a few lines to the wiki, explaining that the use of
> village_green on the map, differs from what’s in the wiki.
>
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dvillage_green
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:landuse
>


+1, IMHO it could be added that this is not desirable nonetheless. Maybe it
could be interesting to see _where_ the usage does not conform to the
definition, i.e. from the actual definition, this tag wouldn't have a place
outside of the UK (maybe commonwealth) anyway. What about Britain, is the
usage there inconsistent as well?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

[Marc Zoutendijk]

> Op 16 jan. 2017, om 11:38 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer  > het volgende geschreven:
> 
> to be fair, it is not just one user who thinks there is a problem with 
> landuse=grass, it has been noted on various occasions that "grass" is not a 
> use.

I agree with that view and support landcover=* for this use.
But I was referring to the _one_ user who changed the wiki.

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Re: [Tagging] Wrong use of landuse=village_green - but what else to use?

[Marc Zoutendijk]

Martin,

> Op 16 jan. 2017, om 11:38 heeft Martin Koppenhoefer  
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> Maybe it could be interesting to see _where_ the usage does not conform to 
> the definition, i.e. from the actual definition, this tag wouldn't have a 
> place outside of the UK (maybe commonwealth) anyway. What about Britain, is 
> the usage there inconsistent as well?

My four examples of “wrong” use, are all from within Britain.
And it seems that outside of Britain the use differs wildly from the definition 
becuase to many people village_green simply means “green spots inside a 
vilage”, and that’s what they use it for.

Marc.



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Re: [Tagging] memorial:type and memorial

[Janko Mihelić]

There was a similar topic about memorials and artworks a while ago, and I
mentioned my idea of a tag like sculpture_shape. It would have values like
bust, person_standing, person_sitting, person_on_horse, abstract and so on.
Then there's already a well established tag subject:wikidata=Qxxx. With
those two tags we have the way it looks (if it's a sculpture), and who/what
it's dedicated to.

If a memorial is about a specific battle, data consumers would still like
to know that it is a war_memorial. So subject:wikidata=* (or subject=*)
should point to the specific battle, but some other tag should explain the
broader subject. Maybe topic=* or theme=* with values like battle,
mass_killing, war_hero, notable_person_death, notable_person_home,
notable_event, archeological_finding ...

memorial=stolperstein is fine by me because it describes the shape and the
topic in one tag.
Also memorial:type=plaque, plate, stele, obelisk seem ok to me.

Janko

pon, 16. sij 2017. u 10:06 Martin Koppenhoefer 
napisao je:

> What is the "type" or "kind" of a memorial?
> There are currently different ideas crammed together in the subkeys, some
> referring to the physical appearance, others referring to the topic or
> scope/reason.
>
> E.g. the suggested/documented tags:
> memorial:type/memorial=plaque
> memorial:type/memorial=plate
> memorial:type/memorial=statue
> memorial=bust
> memorial:type/memorial=stele
> memorial=stone
> memorial:type/memorial=obelisk
>
> all refer to the physical aspect of the memorial.
>
> The suggested tag:
> memorial=war_memorial refers to the topic of the memorial
>
> the suggested tags
> memorial:type/memorial=stolperstein
> memorial=blue_plaque
> because they are very specific, refer to both, the physical aspect and the
> topic/scope.
>
> IMHO we should have distinct tags for these properties, because they occur
> indepently/are different properties.
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
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[Tagging] Tagging speed camera *zones*

[Rory McCann]

What's the best way to tag a speed camera *zone*?

In Ireland, there are several roads which could have a mobile speed
camera van. We have some open data from the government of these roads,
and we'd like to map them in OSM. Ideally satnav apps would tell the
driver that they are on a "possible speed camera van zone" when giving
directions and the like. Many apps show warnings of single point, fixed
speed cameras already.

What's the best way to tag this sort of zone? The type=enforcement
relation[1] seems to be for a fixed camera, and has a simple from
node/to node to mark the area. The single node highway=speed_camera[2]
doesn't apply either.

The UK has many "average speed" zones, which would have the same problem.

[1] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:enforcement
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dspeed_camera



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Re: [Tagging] Tagging speed camera *zones*

[Michael Reichert]

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Hash: SHA256

Hi Rory,

Am 2017-01-16 um 17:24 schrieb Rory McCann:
> In Ireland, there are several roads which could have a mobile
> speed camera van. We have some open data from the government of
> these roads, and we'd like to map them in OSM. Ideally satnav apps
> would tell the driver that they are on a "possible speed camera van
> zone" when giving directions and the like. Many apps show warnings
> of single point, fixed speed cameras already.

Are there signs along the road which inform the car drivers that there
might be a mobile speed camera van? If not, they should not be mapped
at OSM because we only map permanent features.

As the data is provided as open data by a third-party source, app
developers can merge OSM and speed camera zone data on their own.

Best regards

Michael


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(Mailinglisten ausgenommen)
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[Tagging] shop=fuel

[joost schouppe]

Hi,

Some time back, there was a largish discussion about shops that sell fuel,
but are definitely not a fuel station.

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-March/023102.html

Of course, there was no consensus, but most people seemed to agree that a
new tag was needed. Also, there was no tag available for shops that sell
other kinds of fuels, like charcoal or heating oil. So I created this wiki
page:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfuel

I also added the tag to the main shop page too.
Hope this doesn't infuriate anyone. Feel free to edit the page of course.

Something I did note during the edits: the description for shop=gas is
completely contradictory on the shop=* and the shop=gas page. One implies
"technical" gas, the other gas as a cooking fuel. I would suggest dropping
shop=gas (or only keep it for "technical" gas), and just use a subtag
instead:

shop=fuel + fuel:[whatever gas]=yes



-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging speed camera *zones*

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16 Jan 2017, at 17:56, Michael Reichert  wrote:
> 
> Are there signs along the road which inform the car drivers that there
> might be a mobile speed camera van? If not, they should not be mapped
> at OSM because we only map permanent features.


it IS a permanent feature/property of these roads that there can be a speed 
camera though. Signs don't change anything but the way you can learn about it.

I have a different question: can you be sure that the other roads don't have 
speed cameras?

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Added tables for values to key produce

[Warin]

On 16-Jan-17 07:36 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone

On 15 Jan 2017, at 22:26, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


"Unprocessed wood"? What does that mean? Trees or parts of trees cut 
down ... with nothing else done to them? Around we go... Do you have 
a better definition that suits this application?



I'd say this disambiguation page of wp should very likely be corrected 
because it not only contradicts the dictionary definition but also wp 
owns definition that is given on the article page linked there, where 
it states in the first paragraph: "*Lumber* (American English;^[1] 
 
used only in North America), or *timber*(used in the rest of the 
English speaking world^[2] 
 
) is wood that has been processed into beams 
 and planks, a stage 
in the process of wood production 
. "


That is ONE definition of timber.
There are many different definitions of timber depending on the use you 
want to put the word to, some of these definition cannot be used for 
other timber things.


Some timber definitions;

1) wood that has been processed into beams and planks, a stage in the 
process of wood production.
2) wood that has been processed into wood chips, a stage in the process 
of wood production.
3) wood that has been processed into plywood, a stage in the process of 
wood production.

4) as warning yell given before a tree is felled.
5) the trees themselves.
6) personal character or quality.
7) a single beam or or piece of wood, or capable of forming, part of a 
structure
8) (in a ships frame) one of the curved pieces of wood which springs 
upwards and outwards from the keel, a rib




Disclaimer: I am not a native English speaker and have to resort to 
dictionaries.


I resort to the dictionary to clarify what I think something means, 
usually fuzzy, to a more precise definition and/or a better word 
combination than I can derive in my head.


As a native English speaker I (and others in my experience) use 'timber' 
to name felled trees, sitting on the ground, coming out of the forest, 
or waiting for processing in some yard. It is one meaning, definition of 
the word timber.
I also use the word to describe other things too, hence the need for a 
description.



--

A terrible example of more than one defintion?

The word 'right' has at least two basic definitions;
1) correct
2) the side of a person or thing that when faced north  is to the east 
(I got some of this out of my dictionary .. could not think of a good 
description)


To insist that one definition needs to be corrected or removed ...would 
be a denial of common use.

Same thing for 'timber' definitions.

The consumer selects the definition of the word to suit the context, by 
adding a description on the OSMwiki page it should narrow the selection 
to the one intended, hopefully.
Where the definition is missing or fuzzy the consumers can deviate from 
what was intended, hence the need for a 'good' definition.



The definition fro the OSM wikipage is for landuse=forest, 
produce=timber ... (not cannot use produce=wood as that is already in 
use and for areas that may have no produce output).


The basic thing that this definition needs to address is
What is the best definition of the 'a forest that produces timber' (not 
product timber)?
The defintion needs to remove paper, processed wood (plywood, beams for 
construction) as these do not come out of the forest itself - they come 
out of a mill, they are products .. not produce in my mind.









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Re: [Tagging] memorial:type and memorial

[Warin]

On 16-Jan-17 11:56 PM, Janko Mihelić wrote:
There was a similar topic about memorials and artworks a while ago, 
and I mentioned my idea of a tag like sculpture_shape. It would have 
values like bust, person_standing, person_sitting, person_on_horse, 
abstract and so on. Then there's already a well established tag 
subject:wikidata=Qxxx. With those two tags we have the way it looks 
(if it's a sculpture), and who/what it's dedicated to.


If a memorial is about a specific battle, data consumers would still 
like to know that it is a war_memorial. So subject:wikidata=* (or 
subject=*) should point to the specific battle, but some other tag 
should explain the broader subject. Maybe topic=* or theme=* with 
values like battle, mass_killing, war_hero, notable_person_death, 
notable_person_home, notable_event, archeological_finding ...


memorial=stolperstein is fine by me because it describes the shape and 
the topic in one tag.

Also memorial:type=plaque, plate, stele, obelisk seem ok to me.

Janko

pon, 16. sij 2017. u 10:06 Martin Koppenhoefer > napisao je:


What is the "type" or "kind" of a memorial?
There are currently different ideas crammed together in the
subkeys, some referring to the physical appearance, others
referring to the topic or scope/reason.

E.g. the suggested/documented tags:
memorial:type/memorial=plaque
memorial:type/memorial=plate
memorial:type/memorial=statue
memorial=bust
memorial:type/memorial=stele
memorial=stone
memorial:type/memorial=obelisk

all refer to the physical aspect of the memorial.

The suggested tag:
memorial=war_memorial refers to the topic of the memorial

the suggested tags
memorial:type/memorial=stolperstein
memorial=blue_plaque
because they are very specific, refer to both, the physical aspect
and the topic/scope.

IMHO we should have distinct tags for these properties, because
they occur indepently/are different properties.

Cheers,
Martin


+1

I too would rather see separate tags for the 'use', the construction, 
the  appearance.


Not being local to any stolperstein that has no meaning to me, I have to 
look it up.


A war memorial could be a plaque, an obelisk, a statue, a plate.
A plaque could be for a war, a person, a group of people, a machine, or 
an event. Without using another source the information in OSM for this 
tag is not very descriptive.
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Re: [Tagging] shop=fuel

[Warin]

There are general stores (shop= ) that sell fuel too ...

I'd much rather have a tag that will work for any product ... like "sells"

sells=fuel

then more specific if required
fuel:[whatever fuel]=yes

This tag should work for any product ... sells=bread ... there are fuel 
shops that sell bread too.


On 17-Jan-17 04:22 AM, joost schouppe wrote:

Hi,

Some time back, there was a largish discussion about shops that sell 
fuel, but are definitely not a fuel station.


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2015-March/023102.html

Of course, there was no consensus, but most people seemed to agree 
that a new tag was needed. Also, there was no tag available for shops 
that sell other kinds of fuels, like charcoal or heating oil. So I 
created this wiki page:


https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dfuel

I also added the tag to the main shop page too.
Hope this doesn't infuriate anyone. Feel free to edit the page of course.

Something I did note during the edits: the description for shop=gas is 
completely contradictory on the shop=* and the shop=gas page. One 
implies "technical" gas, the other gas as a cooking fuel. I would 
suggest dropping shop=gas (or only keep it for "technical" gas), and 
just use a subtag instead:


shop=fuel + fuel:[whatever gas]=yes



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[Tagging] Public transport cards

[Warin]

Hi,

There is a move away from public transport tickets to public transport 
cards.


Is there any provision for these cards in OSM tagging?


It should provide for;

recharge of these cards from a shop and/or a vending machine.

purchase of a card from a shop and/or a vending machine.


I would think the present use of public_transport_ticket could be 
duplicated with a similar tagging for

public_transport_cards.




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Re: [Tagging] Tagging speed camera *zones*

[Kieron Thwaites]

> The UK has many "average speed" zones, which would have the same problem.

We've got average speed zones down here, with signage warning of them and 
fixed, highly visible camera positions.  As the cameras are fixed and 
permanent, the enforcement relation fits the description perfectly well 
(except for the fact that data consumers have to interpolate the zone from the 
from/to nodes).  Here[1] is one that I mapped earlier this year.

I do share your opinion in that this all falls apart in enforcement zones 
where the cameras are *not* in fixed positions: the enforcement relation 
documentation explicitly states "This relation documents different kinds of 
*permanently* installed devices..." (emphasis my own).  Additionally, the 
relation needs to have at least one "device" member to be valid, 
notwithstanding other validation requirements.

What you're describing is what I'll term as "possible enforcement": 
enforcement may or may not occur, and when it does, the locations of the 
devices are random.  There is currently no tagging scheme for this that I'm 
aware of (so, congratulations, you get to come up with the proposal!).

Relevance and verifiability will probably be a strong point of debate, and in 
this regard, I agree with Michael to an extent.  If there is signage on the 
ground denoting the possible enforcement zone, then it should be tagged.  If, 
however, there is no such signage on the ground, it probably shouldn't be 
tagged, as such tagging will fail both verifiability[2] and OSM's basic "tag 
what's on the ground" guideline.

--K

[1] http://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/6405473
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Verifiability


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Re: [Tagging] Public transport cards

[Tijmen Stam]

On 16-01-17 22:20, Warin wrote:

Hi,

There is a move away from public transport tickets to public transport
cards.

Is there any provision for these cards in OSM tagging?


It should provide for;

recharge of these cards from a shop and/or a vending machine.

purchase of a card from a shop and/or a vending machine.


I would think the present use of public_transport_ticket could be
duplicated with a similar tagging for
public_transport_cards.


There could be some tagging of vending machines.

However, I would warn against using OSM as a database for public 
transport. It seems as if public transport is sometimes overmicromapped 
in OSM.



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