Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 13.02.2016 um 06:34 schrieb johnw :
> 
> to me, a commercial B2B distribution warehouse is commercial (landuse & 
> buildings) - and the 3 mentioned above is retail and uses the shop=* tag. 


in OSM, distribution warehouses are industrial 


cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 13.02.2016 um 08:01 schrieb Marc Gemis :
> 
> This approach could be used for supermarkets/convenience stores as
> well. Supermarkets might sell different items in different countries,
> or depending on their size or type (discounter vs. "regular').


yes, supermarkets like many other features will be slightly different in the 
details in different countries but also comparing different brands and sizes 
within the same context and country.


> 
> There could be an extra tag on the section to indicate whether there
> is personnel to assist you or where the personnel has to take/pack the
> items for you.


often this is a main difference between different types, e.g. department store 
vs. supermarket, not just an attribute for the same type of thing 


> Some DYI offer a paint mixing service or a wood cutting
> service. Supermarkets can have a butcher or people serving bread,
> deli, etc.


I see these as particular exceptions within the general concept of not having 
generally people serving you.


cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging "you pick" farms and related fruit stands

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 13.02.2016 um 08:55 schrieb johnw :
> 
> this weekend, I visited a “you pick” strawberry farm. As with apples and 
> other fruits, Visiting a rural farm and paying a fee to pick your own fruits, 
> nuts, and other stuff must be popular around the world. I have visited 
> several Apple orchards in the US that do that. In this case, it was “all you 
> can eat in 30 minutes” - not really a take home service like with tangerines 
> or Apples.


similarly there are also fields with decorative flowers, where you cut flowers 
on your own and pay for every piece according to the species a fix amount of 
(few) money 

cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging "you pick" farms and related fruit stands

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 13.02.2016 um 08:55 schrieb johnw :
> 
> 
> How would you tag such a service? shop=* seems wrong for the whole farm, but 
> it might be new value of shop=*, like shop=customer_picks_farm, or something 
> that is put onto the building, or  farm:customer_picks=yes for the shop=farm, 
> as often times the roadside stand doubles as a fruit stand as well, but 
> sometimes they have different names for the farm that packs the goods and 
> sells it to shops, and another for the “you-pick” service.


I m not sure for the main tag (amenity?), but wouldn't add it to a farm but 
rather see it as an independent feature that can occur with farms and also not

cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging "you pick" farms and related fruit stands

[Volker Schmidt]

The British English term for such a place is pick-your-own farm [1]. But I
cannot find any tagging in Taginfo.
Maybe shop=pick_your_own added to the farm?

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Pick_and_Pick-Your-Own_%28PYO%29_Farms)

On 13 February 2016 at 09:47, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > Am 13.02.2016 um 08:55 schrieb johnw :
> >
> >
> > How would you tag such a service? shop=* seems wrong for the whole farm,
> but it might be new value of shop=*, like shop=customer_picks_farm, or
> something that is put onto the building, or  farm:customer_picks=yes for
> the shop=farm, as often times the roadside stand doubles as a fruit stand
> as well, but sometimes they have different names for the farm that packs
> the goods and sells it to shops, and another for the “you-pick” service.
>
>
> I m not sure for the main tag (amenity?), but wouldn't add it to a farm
> but rather see it as an independent feature that can occur with farms and
> also not
>
> cheers,
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[johnw]

> On Feb 13, 2016, at 5:36 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
> in OSM, distribution warehouses are industrial 


What do they make there? Isn’t distribution “commerce”? 

A factory that manufactures IKEA furniture is industrial. 

Their Main distribution warehouse seems “commercial” 

Their shops are retail. 

Their big distribution buildings are zoned “industrial” though… I guess I’m 
wrong.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/34.9845/-118.9416 



What about delivery substations? these are medium-sized package sort facilities.

Kuroneko Yamato (with the black cat carrying a kitten) is Japan’s DHL or FedEx. 
They are everywhere.
https://goo.gl/maps/EEvkFEJpVJ52 
This is a hub warehouse, for distribution to my region.

Seino is a regional distribution company. This is a big hub for them. 
https://goo.gl/maps/1W8NeT57ns72 


Then there are the local centers. 
https://goo.gl/maps/o7qLk8L9cg72 
here is my kuroneko center. It has a small office for you to pick up packages 
and a warehouse for the local (tiny) trucks.

The local centers do not seem industrial at all. Perhaps the big regional ones 
are. 


the area I live in is close to Tokyo, but “out in the rural area”  with cheap 
land near the expressway, so it is used heavily for distribution centers for 
shippers big and small. There are possibly hundreds of distribution warehouses 
just in my sleepy corner of Japan. I don’t want to tag them incorrectly. 

And Japan has a very large amount of local sort centers. There are 4 within 
about 7 KM of me just for Kuroneko, which is very different from UPS or FedEx 
in the US. And they don’t seem industrial at all. 

Javbw



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging "you pick" farms and related fruit stands

[johnw]

> On Feb 13, 2016, at 7:06 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> Maybe shop=pick_your_own added to the farm?
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Pick_and_Pick-Your-Own_%28PYO%29_Farms 
> )


I think in some instance it would work, but often times the shop=farm stand 
already exists and manages this service. 

So I’m thinking that this needs to be a subkey of shop=farm, like farm=* or 
something. 

The flowers, christmas trees and other “you Pick” (blueberry picking too?) come 
to mind. 

Javbw___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging "you pick" farms and related fruit stands

[Colin Smale]

Please, not shop=pick_your_own. shop=* indicates what is sold, not
how it is sold. This would currently probably be categorised as
shop=greengrocers if it were in a normal retail area. But in this case
it is limited to, or specialised in, a very small range of produce. Some
I know only do strawberries for example. I would think shop=fruit
(subset of greengrocers), fruit=strawberry (further limited to specific
fruits) would cover this. 

Something like self_service=yes or staffed=no on the stand perhaps, if
you can buy the stuff that somebody else has picked, using an honesty
box system? And pick_your_own=yes/only if you can/must go into the field
to get your own?

//colin 

On 2016-02-13 11:06, Volker Schmidt wrote:

> The British English term for such a place is pick-your-own farm [1]. But I 
> cannot find any tagging in Taginfo. Maybe shop=pick_your_own added to the 
> farm?
> 
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Pick_and_Pick-Your-Own_%28PYO%29_Farms) 
> 
> On 13 February 2016 at 09:47, Martin Koppenhoefer  
> wrote:
> 
>> sent from a phone
>> 
>>> Am 13.02.2016 um 08:55 schrieb johnw :
>>> 
>>> 
>>> How would you tag such a service? shop=* seems wrong for the whole farm, 
>>> but it might be new value of shop=*, like shop=customer_picks_farm, or 
>>> something that is put onto the building, or  farm:customer_picks=yes for 
>>> the shop=farm, as often times the roadside stand doubles as a fruit stand 
>>> as well, but sometimes they have different names for the farm that packs 
>>> the goods and sells it to shops, and another for the "you-pick" service.
>> 
>> I m not sure for the main tag (amenity?), but wouldn't add it to a farm but 
>> rather see it as an independent feature that can occur with farms and also 
>> not
>> 
>> cheers,
>> Martin
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
 ___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging "you pick" farms and related fruit stands

[Volker Schmidt]

 I am not happy with the shop proposal myself either.
This needs more thinking.
There are several aspects to be taken into consideration. Two of them are:
1) The pick-your-own activity often covers several types of fruit at the
same farm.
2) There is a difference between self-service (at a counter or in a shop)
and picking the fruit from the plant.



On 13 February 2016 at 11:27, johnw  wrote:

>
> On Feb 13, 2016, at 7:06 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
> Maybe shop=pick_your_own added to the farm?
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/U-Pick_and_Pick-Your-Own_%28PYO%29_Farms
> )
>
>
>
> I think in some instance it would work, but often times the shop=farm
> stand already exists and manages this service.
>
> So I’m thinking that this needs to be a subkey of shop=farm, like farm=*
> or something.
>
> The flowers, christmas trees and other “you Pick” (blueberry picking too?)
> come to mind.
>
> Javbw
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging "you pick" farms and related fruit stands

[John Willis]

Inline: 



Javbw
> On Feb 13, 2016, at 8:27 PM, Volker Schmidt  wrote:
> 
> I am not happy with the shop proposal myself either. 
> This needs more thinking.
> There are several aspects to be taken into consideration. Two of them are:
> 1) The pick-your-own activity often covers several types of fruit at the same 
> farm.

I think if we have the ability to set this as a stand-alone service, then what 
exactly are you picking will be in the name or similar. Honestly, I am not so 
interested in defining what is to be picked, as this gets into the messy world 
of what a shop sells. I just want to define that the service is at the 
location. 

> 2) There is a difference between self-service (at a counter or in a shop) and 
> picking the fruit from the plant.

To me, the counter is shop=farm. 
Either this is a stand alone shop=* tag that you put on the field(s) where it 
is offered - problematic as they are rotated,  on the whole farm itself - also 
problematic, or on the stand where you pay - which means the shop=tag is 
already taken. I would say a subtag value for the stand - weather they have 
foobars to actually sell or not isn't too important either (it is highly 
seasonal), just weather the they offer the service or not. 

Perhaps a few values of the farm:foobar=yes/no is good:

Farm:self_pick=yes
Farm:harvested=yes
Farm:staffed=no

Self_pick= you pick what you want. Covers picking and eating or picking and 
taking 

Harvested= staff picks and offers for sale in the shop it is tagged on. 

Staffed= if there is a slot for money, and no staff is there.  So many farm 
stands (mappable and permanently there year after year) in my area have no one 
ever there, just cooler boxes with cucumbers or onions inside. Drop a coin in 
the box and be honest. 
Perhaps this covers the coin-op vending machine based farm shops with eggs, 
lettuce, or tomatoes inside, which you spy at major farm intersections: 
https://goo.gl/maps/AnTyjoTyiT72
This farm stand is all coin-op vending machines full of local vegetables in 
lockers. It seems too big to be considered a "vending machine". It's status as 
a roadside vegetable stand seems to have more importance. 


Not sure how to deal with a farm that has one name for the shop and another 
name for the you-pick service. 

Javbw. 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 12일 23:24, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> I am dubious about tagging the artists that the gallery represents,
> since this is likely to change on a fairly frequent basis.  My
> impression is that most exhibitions are only for a period of a week or
> two, meaning that the tag information would frequently be out of date.

A gallery usually has contracts with an artist to allow going sales for
this artist through the gallery exclusively (sometimes with limitations
such as geographically). So a gallery has a list of artists which they
represent - it has nothing to do with what they currently have on display.




___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Greg Troxel]

johnw  writes:

> A factory that manufactures IKEA furniture is industrial. 
>
> Their Main distribution warehouse seems “commercial” 
>
> Their shops are retail. 
>
> Their big distribution buildings are zoned “industrial” though… I guess I’m 
> wrong.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=15/34.9845/-118.9416 
> 

These words don't really have intrinsic meaning, so really it's up to
OSM to define the boundaries.

In US zoning (at least massachusetts), there is generally a distinction
between industrial and light industrial depending on how much heavy
equipment is around, but it's still a place where workers go and
customers and the public does not.

Commercial is used to describe things that are more office-like with the
notion the the public or customers come and go.  An example would be an
insurance agency, a bank, or the office of a landscape company (but not
the place where they keep their trucks - that's industrial).

Retail differs in that there is selling of goods and generally even
larger amounts of coming and going.

So while I see your point about commerce, I find that in zoning law, the
division is about the effect of the operation on the surroundings.  Big
trucks coming and going definitely makes it industrial.

But, OSM has to have a definition and use it, and what people think the
words mean in other contexts isn't really all that important, except
that it's confusing when there is a mismatch.  As always, I think OSM
should look to established fields of study and adopt their terms, not
try to make it up.


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Tagging "you pick" farms and related fruit stands

[Greg Troxel]

johnw  writes:

> Usually, the farm consists of the orchards, greenhouses, and other
> areas that are used a farmland year-round, A gift shop that usually is
> a a roadside stand or small shop (shop=farm) which is open when
> in-season, but the entire place is usually a singularly named
> thing. The area where I live is covered with strawberries, tangerines,
> and apples - and almost all of the rural farms jammed up in the
> mountains offer this “pick it yourself” service at the farm, usually
> operated from the gift shop.

We have many of these in the US.   They are first and foremost farms,
and often sell already picked fruit or flowers, and also let you pick,
often by selling you an empty bag for a set price.

> How do I tag this kind of farm that is also a seasonal “you-pick”
> place? The small building that is a shop is easy, but trying to convey
> that there is a public “you-pick” while in season is very difficult,
> without making the whole farm seem like it is a shopping mall
> (landuse=retail seems really wrong).

as you suggest, landuse=retail is wrong.  It's a farm, and farm's also
sell produce, instead of it being a retail facility that obtains goods
From others.  And I don't see why pick-your-own would be any different
From already-picked.  The only real difference there is whether a farm
worker has put apples in a bag that you can pick up and pay for vs
paying for an empty bag and a license to fill it from the orchard.  So I
don't think the pick-your-own notion is very important to the kind of
place it is, although I understand that it can be important to some map
users who are looking for the pick-your-own experience for their
children.  Around me, there are places that are only pick-your-own
(mostly apples), partially (and varying depending on season and type of
food) and none.  Except for buying empty bags, they feel similar in most
other respects.

I think that some sort of farm:pick_your_own=yes tag is in order, as an
additional tag on the property, or perhaps the farmstand.  It should be
an annotation, not a replacement of the farm -- it's really just a minor
variation in how the fruit/flowers/etc. are sold.

Perhaps this would go with a list of food type sold already picked, and
a PYO list, and for each seasons.  That is getting too complicated; a
farm:pick_your_own=yes tag seems very helpful compared to the
complexity, and I'm not sure beyond that.



signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] path=hiking in use

[johnw]

I came across path=hiking subkey just now.

I was cleaning up some old tagging, and lamenting the highway=path rendering 
change (now my rural mountain trails are all rendered as sidewalks),
and I was considering changing them all to highway=trail, and then thought 
about a subkey of path, path=trail. But path=* in iD suggested path=hiking. I 
had never seen this before. Taginfo has 2100+ uses of this subkey, though it 
looks like they are all centered somewhere in Europe, with a few random ones 
aound everywhere. 


If we can get this subkey  documented and approved, and change then ask for a 
rendering change in -carto to something not as infuriating as rendering 
mountain trails like sidewalks, I might be able to live with the highway=path 
tag.


Javbw
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Andrew Errington]

Changing the tags because you don't like the rendering is not the right
approach.  It would be better to lobby for a change of rendering, or use a
different renderer.

I use highway=path for my hiking trails, then I make relations to record
the popular, named hiking trails.  Some parts of the trail are
highway=steps, because metal staircases have been installed in some places.

Andrew
On 14 Feb 2016 13:03, "johnw"  wrote:

> I came across path=hiking subkey just now.
>
> I was cleaning up some old tagging, and lamenting the highway=path
> rendering change (now my rural mountain trails are all rendered as
> sidewalks),
> and I was considering changing them all to highway=trail, and then thought
> about a subkey of path, path=trail. But path=* in iD suggested path=hiking.
> I had never seen this before. Taginfo has 2100+ uses of this subkey, though
> it looks like they are all centered somewhere in Europe, with a few random
> ones aound everywhere.
>
>
> If we can get this subkey  documented and approved, and change then ask
> for a rendering change in -carto to something not as infuriating as
> rendering mountain trails like sidewalks, I might be able to live with the
> highway=path tag.
>
>
> Javbw
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[John Willis]

Javbw

> On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:09 PM, Andrew Errington  wrote:
> 
> Changing the tags because you don't like the rendering is not the right 
> approach.  It would be better to lobby for a change of rendering, or use a 
> different renderer.

Since everything from a sidewalk, a concrete path, a well worn dirt path 
through the grass around a park, a rough trail through the desert, and a trail 
up the side of Mt Fuji all have the same vague, meaningless highway=path tag - 
there is no differentiation possible, so there is no rendering differentiation 
possible. In any renderer. 

The only way to separate sidewalks from hiking trails is to a) abolish or 
severely restrict the usage of the path tag, which people don't want to do, b) 
create Highway=trail key which people don't want to do, so I'd like to not have 
a grossly inferior (and I mean borderline useless) walking map, so what is left 
is to use c) a sub key to get the trails differentiated, so a rough hiking path 
up a mountain or along a riverbed isn't confused with the sidewalks and 
pedestrian walkways that are often nearby or intermingled where urban meets 
rural. I happened upon path=hiking - someone made it already. 

Not being able to define a rough trail and have it rendered different that the 
other, more urban footways is the same as if all unclassified, residential, 
service, and track were all rendered the same. 

Not only do we have all those grades of small roads, we have 5 (!five!) grades 
of track. They (used to?) all get their own rendering too. 

Can there be at least 1 trail-ish thing that isn't rendered exactly the same as 
a 1m wide flat concrete path through a park?  We can at least document this as 
"in use" to try to mitigate the conflict caused by path and footway used to do 
the same job in different regions? 

Javbw. 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 14.02.2016 um 08:38 schrieb John Willis :
> 
> Since everything from a sidewalk, a concrete path, a well worn dirt path 
> through the grass around a park, a rough trail through the desert, and a 
> trail up the side of Mt Fuji all have the same vague, meaningless 
> highway=path tag - there is no differentiation possible, so there is no 
> rendering differentiation possible. In any renderer.


you can add surface and width tags, as well as sac_scale and others. FWIW, 
current rendering rules of carto-osm don't even distinguish between footway and 
path anymore.

cheers 
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] path=hiking in use

[Andrew Errington]

It's a path.  The fact that the line is drawn the same for each type of
path you describe doesn't matter.  The line indicates "a path of some kind
is here".  It should be obvious from the terrain what kind of path should
be expected.

You could add sac_scale, to indicate that this is *not* a simple path:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:sac_scale

Or create a route which incorporates the segments of path you have created:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Hiking

Andrew
On 14 Feb 2016 16:40, "John Willis"  wrote:

>
>
> Javbw
>
> > On Feb 14, 2016, at 2:09 PM, Andrew Errington 
> wrote:
> >
> > Changing the tags because you don't like the rendering is not the right
> approach.  It would be better to lobby for a change of rendering, or use a
> different renderer.
>
> Since everything from a sidewalk, a concrete path, a well worn dirt path
> through the grass around a park, a rough trail through the desert, and a
> trail up the side of Mt Fuji all have the same vague, meaningless
> highway=path tag - there is no differentiation possible, so there is no
> rendering differentiation possible. In any renderer.
>
> The only way to separate sidewalks from hiking trails is to a) abolish or
> severely restrict the usage of the path tag, which people don't want to do,
> b) create Highway=trail key which people don't want to do, so I'd like to
> not have a grossly inferior (and I mean borderline useless) walking map, so
> what is left is to use c) a sub key to get the trails differentiated, so a
> rough hiking path up a mountain or along a riverbed isn't confused with the
> sidewalks and pedestrian walkways that are often nearby or intermingled
> where urban meets rural. I happened upon path=hiking - someone made it
> already.
>
> Not being able to define a rough trail and have it rendered different that
> the other, more urban footways is the same as if all unclassified,
> residential, service, and track were all rendered the same.
>
> Not only do we have all those grades of small roads, we have 5 (!five!)
> grades of track. They (used to?) all get their own rendering too.
>
> Can there be at least 1 trail-ish thing that isn't rendered exactly the
> same as a 1m wide flat concrete path through a park?  We can at least
> document this as "in use" to try to mitigate the conflict caused by path
> and footway used to do the same job in different regions?
>
> Javbw.
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging