Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 11.02.2016 um 23:39 schrieb Max :
> 
> I'd say so.1. depreciate tourism=gallery for museums, make it a subtype
> of tourism=museum.
> For actual galleries introduce amenity=art_gallery


+0.5, I'd actually make the latter contemporary_art_gallery, although it is 
long, it removes the ambiguity that art_gallery still has

cheers,
Martin 
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[Tagging] Proposal about suffixed tags has been approved

[Hakuch]

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Remove_suffixed_name-tags_from_wiki

It was approved with 38 votes for, 10 votes against and 1 abstention.

Approved due to >74% approval (79.167%). Wikipages has been changed
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Key%3Aname&type=revision&diff=1271795&oldid=1267803
Key:name

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Template%3AMap_Features%3Aname&type=revision&diff=1271784&oldid=1204516
Template

thanks for participation


0x3CBE432B.asc
Description: application/pgp-keys
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Discourage tourism=gallery

[John F. Eldredge]

I am dubious about tagging the artists that the gallery represents, 
since this is likely to change on a fairly frequent basis.  My 
impression is that most exhibitions are only for a period of a week or 
two, meaning that the tag information would frequently be out of date.


On 02/03/2016 02:52 PM, Max wrote:

On 2016년 02월 03일 10:27, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I'd prefer amenity=museum, but I see that putting it under the tourism
key is quite established so it would have to be discussed if a change
would make sense (if it hurts less to do this change one and forever or
if it is better to bear the little pain when putting tourism=museum as
main tag on a museum).

I would be more explicit with the key names, to avoid situations like
amenity=parking, parking=surface, surface=asphalt ;-)

amenity (or tourism)=museum
museum_type (or museum_for or museum:topic or ...) = art / railway /
history / war / mathematics / ...
art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / prints / 
art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
specialized)
art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ...
(if applicable)


So we are now at:
tourism=museum (nicer would be amenity, but for the sake of not changing
too much)
museum:topic= art / railway / history / war / mathematics / ...
art_form = painting / photography / sculpture / video / 
art_genre = still_life / landscape / portrait / religious /  (if
applicable, many collections will be more diverse, but some might be
specialized)
art_style = expressionism / futurism / impressionism / mannerism / ...


Additionally
amenity=contemporary_art_gallery

and
shop=art

That sounds good to me.
Maybe we should have a way to add the names of the artist this gallery
represents?

Are there any objections to this?

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Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Colin Smale]

Couple of comments inline... 

//colin

On 2016-02-12 22:50, John Willis wrote:

> Javbw 
> 
> On Feb 12, 2016, at 4:26 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
>> John, I think you are talking from your US perspective.
> 
> Yea, this is true.   
> 
> It also lines up pretty well with Japan, but that is also a small part of 
> OSM.  
> 
>> From my UK perspective a builders merchant is usually both trade and retail. 
>> If I (as an individual consumer) wanted to buy a ton of bricks or timber, 
>> they would be more than happy to help, in a retail transaction.
> 
> I'm sure there are suppliers that sell retail and ones that sell only b2b, 
> (beyond, let's say, a membership store like Costco), so tagging the suppliers 
> who deal only with B2B might be considered commercial instead of a shop, or 
> some access=commercial for the shop (beyond membership would be useful then 
> to define all the permutations. 
> 
> On 2016-02-12 01:08, John Willis wrote: 
> A builder's merchant warehouse stuffed full of lumber is not a retail shop.  
> A Home Depot is. A big DIY shop.  
> Javbw.  
> 
> Looking objectively, I see the following dimensions at the moment: 
> 
> 1) what types of products (building? gardening? (power) tools?) 
> 
> 2) on what scale (small quantities for consumers, or bulk for bigger 
> projects?) 
> 
> 3) to whom (trade only? retail only? mixed?) 
> 
> My suggestion for how a shop can be modelled simplistically is as {3} plus a 
> list of {1,2}.

Lots of categories are gonna get really complicated real fast,
especially when categories might have regional or language definitions.
Drawing the line by major category might be easier.  

Possibly, but my idea is to make the categories so objective that there
is minimal controversy. Hand tools, timber/lumber, roof coverings,
walling materials... something like that. 

The first stage must always be understanding reality. Only after that do
we get on to how to represent that in OSM. One obvious way is to map the
categories 1:1 to tags, something like power_tools=yes, timber=yes or
products=power_tools;timber or whatever syntax you choose. This soon
gets unwieldy of course, so shortcuts can be defined such as
shop=hardware which is defined as implying products=power_tools;timber.
If there is a shop which basically fits the profile for shop=hardware
except that they don't sell timber, then we can have shop=hardware with
timber=no for example. All the products/tags above are just to
illustrate the idea of course. 

If the profile of shop=hardware in terms of the
products/quantities/clientele differs by country, that's fine if we
document it in the wiki. We could follow the example for highway access
tags, where you can see what the default access tags are for a given
highway type in a given country: 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_tags_for_routing/Access-Restrictions


>> The fact that you call it a lumber yard and I call it a timber merchant is - 
>> assuming they are synonyms - should be for the renderer to sort out. 
>> Sometimes they are only partial synonyms (for (random hypothetical) example 
>> a UK timber merchant normally sells power tools but a US lumber yard 
>> normally doesn't), then looking at the geography would give a good first 
>> guess at what the shop sells. And then there will always be the special 
>> cases where a shop sells something out-of-character for that kind of shop. 
>> 
>> //colin
> 
> For trying to define a builder supply or something, I think this is true - 
> but giant DIY stores vs hardware stores? Are those similarly confusing?

Think first in terms of what they ARE (e.g. a shop which sells XYZ to
consumers). What they are CALLED is going to be different all over the
place. It will only get confusing if you use the word "timber" in the
American sense (trees and logs, not finished) and I interpret it in the
British sense (finished pieces of wood) whereby we are both unaware that
there is a potential for confusion. 

> It would be nice to come up with a summary page for all these 
> construction/builder/home stores. 
> 
> I'll have to check the wiki for builder supply, but to me builder supply 
> usually these are rough goods (metal I beams, rebar, wall studs, glass) - 
> Usually more "finished goods" - carpet, bathroom fixtures, appliances, etc 
> have their own store names. 
> 
> So: 
> 
> Builder supply : focus on materials/piping/whatever their specialty (Tile, 
> rock, lumber), excluding the finished goods stores (appliance, etc)  
> 
> Hardware stores : focus on tools/consumables.  
> 
> DIY store: focus on both materials & tools (fixtures, appliances as well)

Sounds good... I think the scale of the operation might/should come into
it somewhere. A simple hardware store may have one tin of each colour of
paint, but would offer to get you a larger quantity "in a couple of
days". A Builders merchant might have hundreds of tins in stock. 

> Drawing a couple lines in the sand like these should be pretty easy, 
> especially if w

Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[johnw]

inline as well:


> On Feb 13, 2016, at 8:09 AM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
>> So:
>>  
>> Builder supply : focus on materials/piping/whatever their specialty (Tile, 
>> rock, lumber), excluding the finished goods stores (appliance, etc) 
>>  
>> Hardware stores : focus on tools/consumables. 
>>  
>> DIY store: focus on both materials & tools (fixtures, appliances as well)
>>  
> Sounds good... I think the scale of the operation might/should come into it 
> somewhere. A simple hardware store may have one tin of each colour of paint, 
> but would offer to get you a larger quantity "in a couple of days". A 
> Builders merchant might have hundreds of tins in stock.

focus on “supplies” at a builder supply shop would imply such a stock. Hardware 
stores are often ordering the paint for you from a B2B vendor and drop-shipping 
it to you.


>  
>>  
>> Drawing a couple lines in the sand like these should be pretty easy, 
>> especially if we remove large B2B only places from retail (because that is 
>> clearly not retail) and push them over into commercial. This would cover 
>> supply warehouses and other large scale commercial B2B vendors who do not 
>> operate retail/public locations. 
>>  
>> Thoughts? 
>>  
> I agree that "shop" implies retail, so b2b only is not a shop in that sense. 
> But if the clientele is the only difference, shouldn't we tag them the same 
> except for that factor (access=public/business or some such)?
>

to me, a commercial B2B distribution warehouse is commercial (landuse & 
buildings) - and the 3 mentioned above is retail and uses the shop=* tag. 


~~


Today, I went to my local DIY store. I needed some stuff. 
https://goo.gl/maps/LVqbhyYdVwT2 


As a guy who went to Home Depot a lot in the US - these “Japanese DIY stores” 
(they put DIY on the outside of the building) Usually have a lot more… “home 
goods” like you would find in department store. They have a pet center, a watch 
counter, pots and pans, bicycles, curtains and bedding. And 4 isles of screws 
and bolts, farming supplies, and a large amount of power tools. It’s like Home 
Depot and a Target had a kid - Joyful Honda even moreso. (None of them include 
clothing, though). 

The more I think about it, we probably need to approach this in two ways:

#1 ) as discussed, develop borad categories to classify stores (hardware/ 
builder supply / DIY) 

#2 ) come up with descriptions for sections (usually what the isles would be 
named) for more detailed mapping. I assume for home stores and DIY with might 
be 100 different categories. 

The advantage of #1 is people can easily map regional assumptions onto the 
stores, but they broadly match each other. (both are a little different). 

the advantage of #2 is people who care or the shop owners can easily add what 
they do and do not carry via shop:sells:dimentional_framing_lumber=yes or 
shop:sells:bathroom_fixtures=no, and regional search terms can be mapped via 
the shop:ja:sells:自転車=yes (bicycles) can be added if needed. This will allow 
for more fine grained searches (and addition of regional, undefined things, 
like a kimono shop). a search for bicycle shop would return stand-alone bicycle 
shops AND the home store where most people actually buy a bike. 

We will eventually have to make a list like this for most categories of things 
sold (all 3000 of them?), so setting up #1 and preparing for #2 is a good idea. 

Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] Do-it-yourself versus hardware stores

[Marc Gemis]

On Sat, Feb 13, 2016 at 6:34 AM, johnw  wrote:
> #1 ) as discussed, develop borad categories to classify stores (hardware/
> builder supply / DIY)
>
> #2 ) come up with descriptions for sections (usually what the isles would be
> named) for more detailed mapping. I assume for home stores and DIY with
> might be 100 different categories.
>
> The advantage of #1 is people can easily map regional assumptions onto the
> stores, but they broadly match each other. (both are a little different).

This approach could be used for supermarkets/convenience stores as
well. Supermarkets might sell different items in different countries,
or depending on their size or type (discounter vs. "regular').

There could be an extra tag on the section to indicate whether there
is personnel to assist you or where the personnel has to take/pack the
items for you. Some DYI offer a paint mixing service or a wood cutting
service. Supermarkets can have a butcher or people serving bread,
deli, etc.

regards

m

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[Tagging] Tagging "you pick" farms and related fruit stands

[johnw]

this weekend, I visited a “you pick” strawberry farm. As with apples and other 
fruits, Visiting a rural farm and paying a fee to pick your own fruits, nuts, 
and other stuff must be popular around the world. I have visited several Apple 
orchards in the US that do that. In this case, it was “all you can eat in 30 
minutes” - not really a take home service like with tangerines or Apples. 

Usually, the farm consists of the orchards, greenhouses, and other areas that 
are used a farmland year-round, A gift shop that usually is a a roadside stand 
or small shop (shop=farm) which is open when in-season, but the entire place is 
usually a singularly named thing. The area where I live is covered with 
strawberries, tangerines, and apples - and almost all of the rural farms jammed 
up in the mountains offer this “pick it yourself” service at the farm, usually 
operated from the gift shop.

How do I tag this kind of farm that is also a seasonal “you-pick” place? The 
small building that is a shop is easy, but trying to convey that there is a 
public “you-pick” while in season is very difficult, without making the whole 
farm seem like it is a shopping mall (landuse=retail seems really wrong). 

The place I have tried tagging (that I visited) is here:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=19/36.39977/139.27089 


the name of the gift shop (or the whole farm?) is 近藤農園, and the name of the 
you-pick service (as I understand it) is いちご狩り情報, which I stuck on a farmland 
(for now). 

website: http://www.kindness.ne.jp/itigo/access.html 
 (in Japanese)


here is another place I went picking for apples. They also sell apples to 
stores (like a traditional farm). 

https://goo.gl/maps/jwRtcpLpyW82  (Apple Park 
Yamada)

Roadside fruit stand with self-picking strawberries in another region
https://goo.gl/maps/xWUBpEuoZz82  (中村いちご園 )

How would you tag such a service? shop=* seems wrong for the whole farm, but it 
might be new value of shop=*, like shop=customer_picks_farm, or something that 
is put onto the building, or  farm:customer_picks=yes for the shop=farm, as 
often times the roadside stand doubles as a fruit stand as well, but sometimes 
they have different names for the farm that packs the goods and sells it to 
shops, and another for the “you-pick” service.

Suggestions?

Javbw

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