[Tagging] accordion gate & rolling double-track gate

[johnw]

I’m wondering if there is a barrier=* tag for these two types of gates. They 
are the two most popular ones in Japan, but are not are not listed in 
barrier=*. 

I would normally tag these as just barrier=gate, but as there are *so many* 
kinds of gates in barrier=* , I’m wondering if there is a specific type I 
should use or should suggest as a new value. 

The first gate is a very common gate for commercial and residential use. it is 
an “accordion" gate, where a large metal expanding structure anchored on one 
side of a driveway stretches out to meet a post on the other side. It rolls on 
little wheels, and pegs on the bottom catch permanent tabs in the driveway, 
locking the gate into place across the driveway. When locked to the far post, 
it cannot moved at all. When the gate is open, the dense stack often can be 
hinged back out of the way, so no part of the accordion is sticking out into 
the driveway (or at least it is up against the wall, so it is mostly out of the 
way). Although is is a common gate type for residences and small business’ 
driveways - I’m not interested in mapping these (as neighborhoods would drown 
in a sea of unimportant gate icons), but they are also used for access control 
in retail and commercial spaces. I’m interested in tagging these occasional 
important ones, like the first link below. 

FYI, These are not temporary, and will be in service for a couple decades. 

here is an example of two at a mall (near and far). I wanted to map these two, 
as a busy driveway for the parking structure is blocked off from the delivery 
area. They led me to this post.

https://goo.gl/maps/CPbuYoDNE6m 

A folded up accordion gate hinged off to the side at a residence. Shown just 
for understanding the gate.

https://goo.gl/maps/78U618DVAQB2 

This is a cheap and temporary accordion gate used by construction companies 
with their temporary construction barriers. I’m talking about permanent and 
stronger versions, not these flimsy things. 
https://goo.gl/maps/G5non3cZfHQ2  

~~

The second type is a large fixed barrier that rolls on double tracks, either 
manually or automatically. Most commercial and industrial buildings have these 
large rolling double-track gates that roll off to the side, and are usually 
anchored into the trackway in the driveway (so they cannot be knocked off the 
track easily, nor rolled over with a car). The gate can only roll a short 
distance (open-closed) because it is hooked into the track. 

https://goo.gl/maps/DKakBFtPmYK2  A closed 
one at a school. It has 4 different ones, all of the same design. 

https://goo.gl/maps/nRXKgJuumT32   Two that 
meet in the center, both on tracks. 

Should they just be tagged as barrier=gate, or is there a need/desire for a new 
values of barrier=* for them?

Javbw



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[johnw]

> On Sep 24, 2015, at 11:56 AM, Dave Swarthout  wrote:
> 
> Here in Thailand there are many nationalities beside English speakers that 
> make use of these offices, among them are large numbers of  Burmese, 
> Cambodians, Germans, and Japanese.


here in Japan it would be mostly non-english speakers as well (Brazillians, 
Chinese, Koreans, and then English speakers) - but English is the common 
language we all have studied, so all the signs (like most throughout Japan) are 
printed in Japanese and English. I’m pretty sure the common language between 
all those people you listed (besides Thai) would be English as well. 

Support for mulit-language rendering in general is severely lacking.  Most 
signage in Japan is shown in Japanese and English (every single tollway sign, 
road sign and train station - hundreds of thousands of signs), so the default 
-carto render should render both as well, but doesn't.  In this case, -carto 
renders the map with less detail than real life. A JA version of the map can be 
JA only, but for scripts that can’t be parsed by english speakers (like most 
asian scripts), -carto should render their EN tag below the name=* label - as 
that would properly reflect “the ground truth” 

This lack of being able to properly reflect the ground truth led to the JA(EN) 
tag issue in Japan, as Foreign resident mappers who use English attempted to 
show this duality in the real life signs in the name tag field [ name=Japanese 
(English) ], but ultimately is is not good data policy for the name=* tag, so 
it is banned.  But  nothing is done to render both languages (currently), 
creating a crappy situation for the default -carto there. 

Which is why, for a building almost exclusively used by foreigners, in a place 
where the native script is hard to read, I suggest the name field be something 
parsable to those foreigners, whatever common language that is. 

Javbw___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[johnw]

> On Sep 24, 2015, at 1:25 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> This is an American view.. the British do not do this - they have a 'central 
> government'


US:
Federal (central) 
State
County
City 

Japan:
National (central)
Prefectural (Provence)
City 

government =/= State government. It is generic. 

 "Government" implies one or all of those, so it needs to be defined in speech: 
“State government” “Federal Government” , etc. I would assume the admin level 
attached would define the level. 

We have an extra layer (the state) because Japan is basically the size of 
California, and a county is roughly equivalent to a region or prefecture there. 
And there are 50 states (of various sizes). 

Javbw

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] sidewalk width

[Volker Schmidt]

 How to tag the width of
the sidewalks when using the tagging scheme:
highway=...
sidewalk=both|left|right

There are few uses of
sidewalk:width=
and just a handful of
width:sidewalk=

Any other ways of tagging without drawing separate ways for sidewalks?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

[Christian Pietzsch]

There are quite a few uses of sidewalk:(direction):width.(
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=sidewalk) I think that's the best
practice so far.

2015-09-24 11:06 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :

> How to tag the width of
> the sidewalks when using the tagging scheme:
> highway=...
> sidewalk=both|left|right
>
> There are few uses of
> sidewalk:width=
> and just a handful of
> width:sidewalk=
>
> Any other ways of tagging without drawing separate ways for sidewalks?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

[Warin]

On 24/09/2015 7:06 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:

How to tag the width of the sidewalks when using the tagging scheme:
highway=...
sidewalk=both|left|right

There are few uses of
sidewalk:width=
and just a handful of
width:sidewalk=

Any other ways of tagging without drawing separate ways for sidewalks?



The 'sidewalk' on one side may have a different width to that of the 
other side. So

width:sidewalk=

maybe best as one could then use
width:sidewalk:left=
and
width:sidewalk:right=

?
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

[Hubert]

Hi.

 

I always tag it

“sidewalk:right:width=*”

I place sidewalk in front, because clusters all relevant sidewalk tags in a 
single namespace. 

 

Yours Hubert

From: Warin [mailto:61sundow...@gmail.com] 
Sent: Donnerstag, 24. September 2015 11:19
To: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Subject: Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

 

On 24/09/2015 7:06 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:

How to tag the width of the sidewalks when using the tagging scheme:

highway=...
sidewalk=both|left|right

 

There are few uses of 

sidewalk:width=

and just a handful of 

width:sidewalk=

 

Any other ways of tagging without drawing separate ways for sidewalks?

 


The 'sidewalk' on one side may have a different width to that of the other 
side. So 
width:sidewalk=   

maybe best as one could then use
width:sidewalk:left= 
and
width:sidewalk:right= 

? 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

[Christian Pietzsch]

This form isn't used very often. taginfo shows that these things all get
into suffixes.sidewalk:right:width and sidewalk:left:width are often used
together to indicate that the left sidewalk and the right are not equal. (
http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/sidewalk%3Aright%3Awidth#combinations)

2015-09-24 11:19 GMT+02:00 Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:

> On 24/09/2015 7:06 PM, Volker Schmidt wrote:
>
> How to tag the width of the sidewalks when using the tagging scheme:
> highway=...
> sidewalk=both|left|right
>
> There are few uses of
> sidewalk:width=
> and just a handful of
> width:sidewalk=
>
> Any other ways of tagging without drawing separate ways for sidewalks?
>
>
> The 'sidewalk' on one side may have a different width to that of the other
> side. So
> width:sidewalk=
>
> maybe best as one could then use
> width:sidewalk:left=
> and
> width:sidewalk:right=
>
> ?
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] accordion gate & rolling double-track gate

[Christian Pietzsch]

Difficult question.
I would tag second gate mentioned like this: barrier=gate;
gate:type=rolling (http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gate%3Atype#values).
Isn't used very often but sounds valid for me. (maybe with automatic=yes/no)

The first one is more complicated. There doesn't seem to be any reference
objects in the database (haven't seen something similar in taginfo). But I
for my self wouldn't create another barrier tag and stick to a new
gate:type=accordion.

Christian aka Hedaja

2015-09-24 10:36 GMT+02:00 johnw :

> I’m wondering if there is a barrier=* tag for these two types of gates.
> They are the two most popular ones in Japan, but are not are not listed in
> barrier=*.
>
> I would normally tag these as just barrier=gate, but as there are *so
> many* kinds of gates in barrier=* , I’m wondering if there is a specific
> type I should use or should suggest as a new value.
>
> The first gate is a very common gate for commercial and residential use.
> it is an “accordion" gate, where a large metal expanding structure anchored
> on one side of a driveway stretches out to meet a post on the other side.
> It rolls on little wheels, and pegs on the bottom catch permanent tabs in
> the driveway, locking the gate into place across the driveway. When locked
> to the far post, it cannot moved at all. When the gate is open, the dense
> stack often can be hinged back out of the way, so no part of the accordion
> is sticking out into the driveway (or at least it is up against the wall,
> so it is mostly out of the way). Although is is a common gate type for
> residences and small business’ driveways - I’m not interested in mapping
> these (as neighborhoods would drown in a sea of unimportant gate icons),
> but they are also used for access control in retail and commercial spaces.
> I’m interested in tagging these occasional important ones, like the first
> link below.
>
> FYI, These are not temporary, and will be in service for a couple decades.
>
> here is an example of two at a mall (near and far). I wanted to map these
> two, as a busy driveway for the parking structure is blocked off from the
> delivery area. They led me to this post.
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/CPbuYoDNE6m
>
> A folded up accordion gate hinged off to the side at a residence. Shown
> just for understanding the gate.
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/78U618DVAQB2
>
> This is a cheap and temporary accordion gate used by construction
> companies with their temporary construction barriers. I’m talking about
> permanent and stronger versions, not these flimsy things.
> https://goo.gl/maps/G5non3cZfHQ2
>
> ~~
>
> The second type is a large fixed barrier that rolls on double tracks,
> either manually or automatically. Most commercial and industrial buildings
> have these large rolling double-track gates that roll off to the side, and
> are usually anchored into the trackway in the driveway (so they cannot be
> knocked off the track easily, nor rolled over with a car). The gate can
> only roll a short distance (open-closed) because it is hooked into the
> track.
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/DKakBFtPmYK2 A closed one at a school. It has 4
> different ones, all of the same design.
>
> https://goo.gl/maps/nRXKgJuumT32  Two that meet in the center, both on
> tracks.
>
> Should they just be tagged as barrier=gate, or is there a need/desire for
> a new values of barrier=* for them?
>
> Javbw
>
>
>
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:06:28 +0200
Volker Schmidt  wrote:

>  How to tag the
> width of the sidewalks when using the tagging scheme:
> highway=...
> sidewalk=both|left|right
> 
> There are few uses of
> sidewalk:width=
> and just a handful of
> width:sidewalk=
> 
> Any other ways of tagging without drawing separate ways for sidewalks?

With so detailed tagging I would simply mark sidewalk as a separate
highway=footway + footway=sidewalk.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] accordion gate & rolling double-track gate

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2015-09-24 12:04 GMT+02:00 Christian Pietzsch 
:

> I would tag second gate mentioned like this: barrier=gate;
> gate:type=rolling (
> http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/keys/gate%3Atype#values). Isn't used
> very often but sounds valid for me. (maybe with automatic=yes/no)
>
> The first one is more complicated. There doesn't seem to be any reference
> objects in the database (haven't seen something similar in taginfo). But I
> for my self wouldn't create another barrier tag and stick to a new
> gate:type=accordion.
>


+1
I agree that these are all barrier=gate and that there could be a subtag
for the specific type of gate.

Looking this up, there are already some gate:type in the db:
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/gate%3Atype#values
The key "gate" is used even more, but with lots of "non-typology" values
and generally no system (88 different values vs. 15):
http://taginfo.osm.org/keys/gate#values

I've added a paragraph to the gate definition in the wiki, hoping we can
get to some proposal for these:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:barrier%3Dgate#Additional_details

cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

[Christian Pietzsch]

I'm still having my problems with separate sidewalks if they are attached
directly to the street. Most (all) routing engines will make bigger detours
to the next intersection instead of simply crossing the street. For example
(
https://graphhopper.com/maps/?point=51.047343%2C12.797796&point=51.047138%2C12.798085&locale=de-DE&vehicle=foot&weighting=fastest&elevation=true&layer=Omniscale
)
And in my opinion it doesn't follow the on-the-ground rule either because
there are two separated way while in reality you could easily get from one
to the other.


2015-09-24 12:33 GMT+02:00 Mateusz Konieczny :

> On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 11:06:28 +0200
> Volker Schmidt  wrote:
>
> >  How to tag the
> > width of the sidewalks when using the tagging scheme:
> > highway=...
> > sidewalk=both|left|right
> >
> > There are few uses of
> > sidewalk:width=
> > and just a handful of
> > width:sidewalk=
> >
> > Any other ways of tagging without drawing separate ways for sidewalks?
>
> With so detailed tagging I would simply mark sidewalk as a separate
> highway=footway + footway=sidewalk.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

[Volker Schmidt]

@Mateusz

With so detailed tagging I would simply mark sidewalk as a separate
> highway=footway + footway=sidewalk.
>

In principle I agree with you, but if I tag a separate footway I also have
to tag all possible connections with the adjacent street, i.e. points where
pedetians can cross the road and crossings with lateral streets (and in my
area deal with badly aligned, imported, buildings that leave no space
between road and building). That's why in many cases the sidewalk= ... tag
is easier to handle and I wanted to be able to use it with width indication
as well.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

[Volker Schmidt]

@Christian

In many countries you
cannot cross a road just anywhere from one sidewalk to the other, often you
are obliged to use the nearest zebra crossing or cross near intersections.
At least in theory.
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Friedrich Volkmann]

On 24.09.2015 08:18, Warin wrote:
> I have 'synced' the wiki page
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dgovernment with the Russian
> source page.
> It now reflects the use of the sub tag government= as documented on the
> Russian page.

Why does the yellow box say that the English version is a an out-of-sync
translation of itself?

-- 
Friedrich K. Volkmann   http://www.volki.at/
Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Handle with care

[Kotya Karapetyan]

Hi André, all,

Shall we discuss an "object_warning" tag? To begin with, it will simply
contain information. Editors can also choose to show it when the tagged
object is about to be changed.

Kind regards,
Kotya





On Fri, Sep 18, 2015 at 12:53 AM, André Pirard 
wrote:

> On 2015-09-17 18:02, Kotya Karapetyan wrote :
>
> Hi André,
>
> I don't know why your text was removed.
>
> > It would produce a message saying something like:
> > "The coordinates you are trying to change are accurate to 25 cm.
> > You probably shouldn't change this tag, certainly not with GPS data.
> > Are you certain that you will not destroy valuable data and do you want
> to continue?".
> > And if he replies "no", his attempt is canceled.
>
> I like this approach. I wonder if it is technically feasible.
>
> Forget about my bad examples and the eagerness to pick them.
> Here is the original text.
>
> ... Despite a "don't touch" note explaining why not, a good soul passes,
> not reading note and makes a "correction".
> What is needed here is an "are you sure?" tag named such as
> [keyname:]warning="text" that the map editing softwate  uses any time a
> mapper wants to change that keyname's value  to display the message and ask
> for a confirmation (by the tag, at the time he tries to change it, not when
> he tries to upload a dozen of such changes).
> ="Reasons why you shouldn't change that tag.  Do you really want to
> change it?"
> Replying "no" cancels the attempt.
> Or should it be [keyname:]note:warn="text" and spare another wiki page?
> keyname can be "geometry" as in source:geometry.
> Et voilà.  An all-purpose simple guardrail, a small update to the wiki and
> passing the word to the editors.
>
>
> My point was that to make it generic may be more difficult than creating a
> very specific tag/function for survey-based data.
>
> IMHO it may be simpler that some specific implementations and certainly
> when their numbers reaches 2.
> The answer will be given by JOSM et al.
> It doesn't address "mechanical" updates, but the persons doing them are
> supposed to know what they're doing, aren't they?
>
> And I didn't understand the benefit for your other examples. But otherwise
> I support it.
>
> Those examples forgotten, other voices are needed, the wiki update has
> almost been written.
>
>
> Cheers,
> Kotya
>
> General tip: Kotya, do you know that you can have your
> kotya.li...@gmail.com account use filters to store messages in
> by-the-list folders and access those folders using IMAP with software like
> Thunderbird and do things like answering to ancient mail?
>
> Cheers
>
> André.
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] sidewalk width

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Thu, 24 Sep 2015 14:18:43 +0200
Volker Schmidt  wrote:

> and in my area deal with badly aligned, imported, buildings
> that leave no space between road and building). That's why in many
> cases the sidewalk= ... tag is easier to handle 

In case of malformed import making hard to edit I would probably
fix/revert/delete imported objects and start remapping - like it was
done in case described in
https://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Abbe98/diary/28368

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Blake Girardot]

Thank you for all the help with this topic everyone.


On 9/24/2015 6:25 AM, Warin wrote:


Perhaps
office=government
government=immigration ?

or
government:immigration=yes
would be better where the office functions are combined..
government:passport=yes
government:vehicle_licence=yes
etc...

The office=government is under represented in the OSM data base ..
perhaps because there are no sub tags to further identify what it is
used for.



I like where these two suggestions are going. What are the next steps?

This is an important topic at the moment in Europe and people are 
mapping border and immigration related items in several countries.


Cheers
blake


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Warin]

On 25/09/2015 12:09 AM, Friedrich Volkmann wrote:

On 24.09.2015 08:18, Warin wrote:

I have 'synced' the wiki page
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:office%3Dgovernment with the Russian
source page.
It now reflects the use of the sub tag government= as documented on the
Russian page.

Why does the yellow box say that the English version is a an out-of-sync
translation of itself?



Because it is a dumb template.

Personally I think the wiki pages should say which language page is the 
'primary' page.

That would help those who want to check or comment on the page.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Warin]

On 25/09/2015 6:33 AM, Blake Girardot wrote:




Thank you for all the help with this topic everyone.


On 9/24/2015 6:25 AM, Warin wrote:


Perhaps
office=government
government=immigration ?

or
government:immigration=yes
would be better where the office functions are combined..
government:passport=yes
government:vehicle_licence=yes
etc...

The office=government is under represented in the OSM data base ..
perhaps because there are no sub tags to further identify what it is
used for.



I like where these two suggestions are going. What are the next steps?

This is an important topic at the moment in Europe and people are 
mapping border and immigration related items in several countries.




Firstly
As it is the Russians who are 'driving' this ... I think they should be 
consulted (on the Russian talk group).

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-ru

I am subscribing .. and will be raising an issue I have with government 
vs administration subject office=government vs. office=administration.
I raise the issue there as that is I think where it originates, so 
directly engaging rather than through another group is better IMO.
Looks like the list subscription is not automatic .. so I will wait for 
manual approval.



Secondly.
Create a proposal for the key 'government' ... and let people comment on 
it.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Immigration, asylum, refugee centers

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 25.09.2015 um 00:21 schrieb Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>:
> 
> Personally I think the wiki pages should say which language page is the 
> 'primary' page.
> That would help those who want to check or comment on the page.


I believe the primary page should always be English and the other languages for 
the same page should be translations. Actually I thought this was already 
decided.

cheers 
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging