Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> A hotel room that has air conditioning may be both heated or cooled
> depending on the desired temperature and the ambient temperature (and the
> air conditioner). It usually supplies a measure of fresh air too. I think
> that this should be considered as part of the building .. and a sub tag
> developed for that?
>

In fact I think this is the key interesting characteristic to map:  does it
have a chiller or heater at all?
The specific temperature is likely set by the user, or varies by the
season, and thus is a poor choice for a database key value.


Either the substance is supplied at local ambient, or a facility is made to
raise or lower the temperature:

 heated=yes
 cooled=no



> A heated pool would be warm, cooled would be cool? Same with spars and
> taps..

If adjustable, e.g. as most showers are, then the tag
> 'temperature=adjustable' is part of this proposal...
>

Frequently it's adjustable just one way.  For example we have water heaters
for showers, but a water chiller is exceptionally rare.

'temperature=adjustable' does not capture it really.  A hotel room with a
heater but no cooler for example is "adjustable", but
not a good place to go when it's 100F and humid.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Warin]

On 12/02/2015 3:45 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


A hotel room that has air conditioning may be both heated or
cooled depending on the desired temperature and the ambient
temperature (and the air conditioner). It usually supplies a
measure of fresh air too. I think that this should be considered
as part of the building .. and a sub tag developed for that?


In fact I think this is the key interesting characteristic to map: 
 does it have a chiller or heater at all?
The specific temperature is likely set by the user, or varies by the 
season, and thus is a poor choice for a database key value.



Either the substance is supplied at local ambient, or a facility is 
made to raise or lower the temperature:


 heated=yes
 cooled=no


Most air conditioners here have the ability to both heat and cool at 
least here and in the UK.


The temperature in large offices, hotels here are usually set centrally 
.. not by the guest or local worker.


Why do you consider heated and cooled an 'interesting characteristic' 
and how do you see it being rendered on to a map? Is it more 
'important/significant' than the suggested temperature values? If so .. 
why has it not been proposed?


I'd think that the vast majority will be interested in;
showers that are 'adjustable' in the conventional sense (yet to come 
across a chilled water facility on a shower),
the temperature of water that comes out of a tap (hot, 'cold' or 
boiling). Note thta boiling is different to hot, boiling can be used to 
make tea/coffee, hot is not good for making tea/coffee.






A heated pool would be warm, cooled would be cool? Same with spars
and taps.. 


If adjustable, e.g. as most showers are, then the tag
'temperature=adjustable' is part of this proposal...


Frequently it's adjustable just one way.  For example we have water 
heaters for showers, but a water chiller is exceptionally rare.


'temperature=adjustable' does not capture it really.  A hotel room 
with a heater but no cooler for example is "adjustable", but

not a good place to go when it's 100F and humid.


Usually the adjustably provides for local conditions .. it would be rare 
to want to reduce a showers temperature below the ambient. In some parts 
of Asia the locals don't use showers for this reason - they use a scoop 
of water to wet the body, the interval between scoops provide a time 
where water evaporates thus providing cooling. Cheap, effective and 
efficient. Would you label this 'cooled=yes'?I note that OSM does not 
have a tag for this kind of washing facility.



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[althio]

On 11 February 2015 at 17:45, Bryce Nesbitt  wrote:
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> A hotel room that has air conditioning may be both heated or cooled
>> depending on the desired temperature and the ambient temperature (and the
>> air conditioner). It usually supplies a measure of fresh air too. I think
>> that this should be considered as part of the building .. and a sub tag
>> developed for that?
>
> In fact I think this is the key interesting characteristic to map:  does it
> have a chiller or heater at all?
> The specific temperature is likely set by the user, or varies by the season,
> and thus is a poor choice for a database key value.
>
> Either the substance is supplied at local ambient, or a facility is made to
> raise or lower the temperature:
>
>  heated=yes
>  cooled=no

+1
As first-level tagging the temperature control is the most important
feature: ambient=yes/no and/or heating=yes/no and/or cooling=yes/no.
The actual temperature or temperature range (either numeric value or
descriptive like freezing/boiling) could optionally come after as
complementary tag.

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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Kotya Karapetyan]

Hi all,

I wonder: shouldn't we separate a conditioned room air in a hotel and
an object temperature? I get the feeling that this discussion on a
useful tag (how to denote the temperature of an object where it is
needed) is slowly drifting away to defining about everything related
to temperature.

I would concentrate on a set of specific examples (where are
mappers/data users likely to want to tag/know the temperature?) and
just define the set of the tag values for them. The cases that are not
explicitly temperature-related shouldn't be covered by this tag in my
opinion.


An air-conditioned hotel room is a good counter-example for this tag.
It's the comfort level rather than the temperature that is the goal. A
temperature of the room is the secondary parameter here. Everyone
would understand what an air-conditioned hotel is, but I would
struggle to know whether +25 °C in July is comfortable for South Korea
or not if I see it in the map.

On the other hand, there may be a good exception. The American
consulate in Moscow is notoriously known for overusing air
conditioning and causing severe colds. People are advised to take
pullovers and scarves with them in summer. I've experienced the same
in McDonald's in Hungary. +20 °C may be a comfortable temperature but
not when it's +35 °C outside and the conditioner is blowing like hell
onto your head to keep the temperature down. For such cases, one could
tag the place as AC-ed and cold.

Summary: I suggest to use this tag (and discuss the recommended values
for it) only for the temperature specific cases, not for the whole set
of objects having some temperature.

Cheers,
Kotya

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 10:59 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/02/2015 3:45 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
>
> On Tue, Feb 10, 2015 at 9:04 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> A hotel room that has air conditioning may be both heated or cooled
>> depending on the desired temperature and the ambient temperature (and the
>> air conditioner). It usually supplies a measure of fresh air too. I think
>> that this should be considered as part of the building .. and a sub tag
>> developed for that?
>
>
> In fact I think this is the key interesting characteristic to map:  does it
> have a chiller or heater at all?
> The specific temperature is likely set by the user, or varies by the season,
> and thus is a poor choice for a database key value.
>
>
> Either the substance is supplied at local ambient, or a facility is made to
> raise or lower the temperature:
>
>  heated=yes
>  cooled=no
>
>
> Most air conditioners here have the ability to both heat and cool at least
> here and in the UK.
>
> The temperature in large offices, hotels here are usually set centrally ..
> not by the guest or local worker.
>
> Why do you consider heated and cooled an 'interesting characteristic' and
> how do you see it being rendered on to a map? Is it more
> 'important/significant' than the suggested temperature values? If so .. why
> has it not been proposed?
>
> I'd think that the vast majority will be interested in;
> showers that are 'adjustable' in the conventional sense (yet to come across
> a chilled water facility on a shower),
> the temperature of water that comes out of a tap (hot, 'cold' or boiling).
> Note thta boiling is different to hot, boiling can be used to make
> tea/coffee, hot is not good for making tea/coffee.
>
>
>
>
>>
>> A heated pool would be warm, cooled would be cool? Same with spars and
>> taps..
>>
>> If adjustable, e.g. as most showers are, then the tag
>> 'temperature=adjustable' is part of this proposal...
>
>
> Frequently it's adjustable just one way.  For example we have water heaters
> for showers, but a water chiller is exceptionally rare.
>
> 'temperature=adjustable' does not capture it really.  A hotel room with a
> heater but no cooler for example is "adjustable", but
> not a good place to go when it's 100F and humid.
>
>
> Usually the adjustably provides for local conditions .. it would be rare to
> want to reduce a showers temperature below the ambient. In some parts of
> Asia the locals don't use showers for this reason - they use a scoop of
> water to wet the body, the interval between scoops provide a time where
> water evaporates thus providing cooling. Cheap, effective and efficient.
> Would you label this 'cooled=yes'? I note that OSM does not have a tag for
> this kind of washing facility.
>
>
>
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>

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Re: [Tagging] Tagging Voting system- time for reform?

[Warin]

On 2/02/2015 4:34 AM, Paul Johnson wrote:
On Sat, Jan 24, 2015 at 8:00 AM, Dave Swarthout 
mailto:daveswarth...@gmail.com>> wrote:


+1 "Nobody votes because it's a borderline pointless endeavor."



Yep.
Thus things don't get approved due to lack of votes because few vote.
And few vote because even a negative vote can cause the minimum number 
of required votes to be exceed, enabling an acceptance.

And some want more that a simple majority in order to accept things.

 Thus the need to reform.

Ok .. I can see that compulsion on voting won't work...

So ... How about

A 3 week minimum voting period - Gives people enough time fore a holiday 
and then think and caste  vote.
From this 3 week period the proposer may close the voting if a minimum 
number of votes are received and a 2/3rds majority vote for or against.
At 6 weeks and onwards the proposer may close the voting no matter how 
few votes have been received and base the acceptance or failure on a 
simple majority.
At one year the voting closes. No option, result on simple majority, if 
50/50 then the proposal passes.


This provides for a chance for people to vote, for consideration time, 
and at 6 weeks an incentive to vote as it can be called no matter how 
few have voted.





I joined this group to effect changes in tagging things of
interest to me. But the discussions inevitably go round and round
with nary a thing getting resolved. If someone has what seems like
a good idea there is always someone else who takes issue with it.


The mailing lists and just going out and tagging seem to do more good 
than calling convoluted proposals and voting sessions, so there's 
that.  For best results, get a working model going first.  It's not 
like the database is going to kick out esoterickey=unknownvalue...


Frankly, getting anything done is just too time consuming.



Yep. Thus it needs reform.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

>  Why do you consider heated and cooled an 'interesting characteristic'
> and how do you see it being rendered on to a map? Is it more
> 'important/significant' than the suggested temperature values? If so .. why
> has it not been proposed?
>

It's been proposed.

If you're in a developing country, the difference between a motel with and
without A/C could be significant to you.
It's up to the rendering to decide how to represent that key, if at all.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[John F. Eldredge]

On February 11, 2015 3:59:45 PM CST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/02/2015 3:45 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> Most air conditioners here have the ability to both heat and cool at 
> least here and in the UK.

Technically, a unit that can either cool a building, or heat it by cooling 
outdoor air and transferring heat to indoor air, is a heat pump rather than an 
air conditioner. Heat pumps are significantly more expensive up-front than air 
conditioners, due to their greater mechanical complexity, and are only 
cost-effective as a heating method as long as the temperature to which the 
outdoor air is chilled is above freezing. As the temperature of the outdoor 
condenser approaches freezing, the heat pump changes over to using a resistive 
heating element to heat the indoor air, requiring more electrical power. This 
means that, in some climates, it is more cost-effective to use a heat source 
such as an oil-burning or gas-burning furnace as the winter heat source.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive 
out hate: only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Warin]

On 12/02/2015 9:57 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


Why do you consider heated and cooled an 'interesting
characteristic' and how do you see it being rendered on to a map?
Is it more 'important/significant' than the suggested temperature
values? If so .. why has it not been proposed?


It's been proposed.


Link? A google gets http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:craft%3Dhvac

and that says all of "Workplace or office of an HVAC system designer 
(*H*eating, *V*entilating, and *A*ir *C*onditioning)" Hardly an 
explanation of what the tag is ...




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Warin]

On 12/02/2015 10:25 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

On February 11, 2015 3:59:45 PM CST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/02/2015 3:45 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
Most air conditioners here have the ability to both heat and cool at
least here and in the UK.

Technically, a unit that can either cool a building, or heat it by cooling 
outdoor air and transferring heat to indoor air, is a heat pump rather than an 
air conditioner.


And the common use term is 'air conditioner'.

Some cooling only units are heat pumps - they work in humid environments 
where evaporative coolers fail. Places in deserts or near deserts use 
the evaporative coolers (Alice Springs, Australia) while those in 
tropical areas use heat pumps (Darwin, Australia)... what suits the 
circumstance gets used.



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Re: [Tagging] Nominatim mysteries

[Warin]

Hi,

The OSM data is in English. And the data you are trying to search for is 
tagged amenity=recycling or amenity=recycling_point.


Your trying to search for it using French terms (as shown in the table 
you have below) .. some work, some don't.


This would be an application issue? Rather than a tagging issue?

If it is an application issue then may be better asked on the specific 
application talk group?


Good Luck.

On 11/02/2015 10:19 AM, André Pirard wrote:

Hi,

Can anyone make sense out of this?
About: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim/Special_Phrases/FR
Two columns prepended to the table, second: Y=works, N=does not.
All OSM queries are appended with the place name "Dolembreux".
Seeing that #1 works, I add the alternate #2 and it doesn't.
Then I check "recycling Dolembreux" and it doesn't work.
But "recycling point Dolembreux" does work.
(OK, I see that phrase in the EN page, but...)
Now if I add #5, it does work but #3 and #4 don't.
Plus, all the prepositions in entries marked with "?" seem unnecessary.
The queries with or without them seem to return the same results;
And yet, the specification page 
 defines 
them.


Am I missing something?

André.



1
Y
Point de recyclage  amenity recycling   -
N
2
N
Bulle à verre   amenity recycling   -
N
3
N
Bulle   amenity recycling point -   N
4
N
Bulle verre amenity recycling point -   N
5
Y
Bulle à verre   amenity recycling point -   N
6
Y
Point de recyclage  amenity recycling   -   N
7
Y
Points de recyclage amenity recycling   -   Y

?
Point de recyclage àamenity recycling   in  N

?
Points de recyclage à   amenity recycling   in  Y

?
Point de recyclage en   amenity recycling   in  N

?
Points de recyclage en  amenity recycling   in  Y

?
Point de recyclage dans amenity recycling   in  
N

?
Points de recyclage dansamenity recycling   in  
Y

?
Point de recyclage près amenity recycling   near
N

?
Points de recyclage prèsamenity recycling   near
Y

?
Point de recyclage près de  amenity recycling   near
N

?
Points de recyclage près de amenity recycling   near
Y

?
Point de recyclage proche   amenity recycling   near
N

?
Points de recyclage proche  amenity recycling   near
Y

?
Point de recyclage proche deamenity recycling   near
N

?
Points de recyclage proches de  amenity recycling   near
Y




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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[John F. Eldredge]

On February 11, 2015 6:16:39 PM CST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On 12/02/2015 10:25 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:
> > On February 11, 2015 3:59:45 PM CST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>
> wrote:
> >> On 12/02/2015 3:45 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
> >> Most air conditioners here have the ability to both heat and cool
> at
> >> least here and in the UK.
> > Technically, a unit that can either cool a building, or heat it by
> cooling outdoor air and transferring heat to indoor air, is a heat
> pump rather than an air conditioner.
> 
> And the common use term is 'air conditioner'.
> 
> Some cooling only units are heat pumps - they work in humid
> environments 
> where evaporative coolers fail. Places in deserts or near deserts use 
> the evaporative coolers (Alice Springs, Australia) while those in 
> tropical areas use heat pumps (Darwin, Australia)... what suits the 
> circumstance gets used.
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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If you buy a unit marketed as an air conditioner, rather than as a heat pump, 
and expect to use it for heating as well as cooling, you are likely to be 
disappointed. In the USA, at least, heat pump is the standard marketing term 
for the units that can pump heat in either direction, and air conditioner is 
the standard marketing term for the units that only pump heat from indoors to 
outdoors.

-- 
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness: only light can do that. Hate cannot drive 
out hate: only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Warin]

Getting further and further away from tag:temperature=

On 12/02/2015 12:37 PM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

On February 11, 2015 6:16:39 PM CST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 12/02/2015 10:25 AM, John F. Eldredge wrote:

On February 11, 2015 3:59:45 PM CST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com>

wrote:

On 12/02/2015 3:45 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
Most air conditioners here have the ability to both heat and cool

at

least here and in the UK.

Technically, a unit that can either cool a building, or heat it by

cooling outdoor air and transferring heat to indoor air, is a heat
pump rather than an air conditioner.

And the common use term is 'air conditioner'.

Some cooling only units are heat pumps - they work in humid
environments
where evaporative coolers fail. Places in deserts or near deserts use
the evaporative coolers (Alice Springs, Australia) while those in
tropical areas use heat pumps (Darwin, Australia)... what suits the
circumstance gets used.






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If you buy a unit marketed as an air conditioner, rather than as a heat pump, 
and expect to use it for heating as well as cooling, you are likely to be 
disappointed. In the USA, at least, heat pump is the standard marketing term 
for the units that can pump heat in either direction, and air conditioner is 
the standard marketing term for the units that only pump heat from indoors to 
outdoors.


Not in Australia... and in the UK? 
http://www.daikin.co.uk/air-conditioning/


On 12/02/2015 9:57 AM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 1:59 PM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


Why do you consider heated and cooled an 'interesting
characteristic' and how do you see it being rendered on to a map?
Is it more 'important/significant' than the suggested temperature
values? If so .. why has it not been proposed?


It's been proposed.


Where is the link to the past proposal for air conditioning or heat pump 
or heated or cooled ?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[johnw]

> On Feb 6, 2015, at 8:03 PM, Kotya Karapetyan  wrote:
> 
> 1) +1 to drop Kelvins.
> 
> 2) heated/cooled is a nice idea, but I wouldn't like seeing too many
> top level tags.
> 

Danger-cold
cold
cool
mild
warm
hot
danger-hot

I don’t think is unreasonable if we’re going to have qualitative tags, to have 
7 values. there needs to be a distinction between something that is 
uncomfortably hot and dangerously hot. (AKA a hot springs and a steam pipe). 

You can’t have “cold mild hot” as the only qualitative/ subjective tags, 
because the extremes and values in between are common descriptions of items in 
a qualatiative sense = “That steam pipe is dangerously hot” "that desert cave 
is mild inside” “The mountain hut is warm inside" "That hot springs is hot but 
enjoyable” They may be qualitative, but is verifiable to some degree, and 
useful if there is no exact temperature known, or it varies in a predictable 
range (hot springs water is often “danger-hot”, though the temperature goes up 
and down with earthquakes and other geologic activity - but 90C and 95C water 
is still dangerous. 

also, my stab at method:

temperature:method=mechanical / fire / natural / material or inherent
temperature:range=cooled / heated / controlled / variable / adjustable

If further detail is needed, then

temperature:mechanical= forced_air_heater / swamp_cooler / freon_AC / 
freon_freezer / tankless_heater etc
temperature:fire=fire_pit / fireplace / kerosene_heater / wood_stove

mechanical: whatever method (HVAC, refrigerator unit, oil heater, etc) is used 
to heat the item or the air inside the item.
fire: directly burning wood or a material to receive heat (AKA a fireplace, gas 
fire pit, stove). 
natural: the place is in a situation where it is naturally different from the 
ambient temperature of the area (AKA caves in the desert are mild, esp. 
compared to right outside the entrance  - both during the hot day and cold 
nights. (I think natural is the smallest category of use) 
material: the material being moved or the item itself is inherently that 
temperature (unnaturally) at that current state - AKA a steam pipe, an exhaust 
pipe, a heat exchanger, a refrigerant line. 

if we want to get into semantics that a shower could be a cold shower, a warm 
shower, and a hot shower, usually, marking “hot” for the temperature means hot 
water is available to mix, so it would be:

amenity=showers
temperature=hot 

Additional info:

temperature:range=adjustable
temperature:method=mechanical
temperature:mechanical=tankless_electric_heater

but a beach shower, for washing off the sand is 

amenity=showers
temperature=cool

additional info:

temperature:range=variable
temperature:method=material  (the water being transported is inherently cool). 




anyways, those are my ideas

Javbw



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Warin]

On 12/02/2015 1:23 PM, johnw wrote:

On Feb 6, 2015, at 8:03 PM, Kotya Karapetyan  wrote:

1) +1 to drop Kelvins.

2) heated/cooled is a nice idea, but I wouldn't like seeing too many
top level tags.


Danger-cold
cold
cool
mild
warm
hot
danger-hot

I don’t think is unreasonable if we’re going to have qualitative tags, to have 
7 values. there needs to be a distinction between something that is 
uncomfortably hot and dangerously hot. (AKA a hot springs and a steam pipe).

You can’t have “cold mild hot” as the only qualitative/ subjective tags, because the extremes 
and values in between are common descriptions of items in a qualatiative sense = “That steam 
pipe is dangerously hot” "that desert cave is mild inside” “The mountain hut is warm 
inside" "That hot springs is hot but enjoyable” They may be qualitative, but is 
verifiable to some degree, and useful if there is no exact temperature known, or it varies in 
a predictable range (hot springs water is often “danger-hot”, though the temperature goes up 
and down with earthquakes and other geologic activity - but 90C and 95C water is still 
dangerous.

also, my stab at method:

temperature:method=mechanical / fire / natural / material or inherent
temperature:range=cooled / heated / controlled / variable / adjustable

If further detail is needed, then

temperature:mechanical= forced_air_heater / swamp_cooler / freon_AC / 
freon_freezer / tankless_heater etc
temperature:fire=fire_pit / fireplace / kerosene_heater / wood_stove

mechanical: whatever method (HVAC, refrigerator unit, oil heater, etc) is used 
to heat the item or the air inside the item.
fire: directly burning wood or a material to receive heat (AKA a fireplace, gas 
fire pit, stove).
natural: the place is in a situation where it is naturally different from the 
ambient temperature of the area (AKA caves in the desert are mild, esp. 
compared to right outside the entrance  - both during the hot day and cold 
nights. (I think natural is the smallest category of use)
material: the material being moved or the item itself is inherently that 
temperature (unnaturally) at that current state - AKA a steam pipe, an exhaust 
pipe, a heat exchanger, a refrigerant line.

if we want to get into semantics that a shower could be a cold shower, a warm 
shower, and a hot shower, usually, marking “hot” for the temperature means hot 
water is available to mix, so it would be:

amenity=showers
temperature=hot

Additional info:

temperature:range=adjustable
temperature:method=mechanical
temperature:mechanical=tankless_electric_heater

but a beach shower, for washing off the sand is

amenity=showers
temperature=cool

additional info:

temperature:range=variable
temperature:method=material  (the water being transported is inherently cool).




anyways, those are my ideas

Javbw




Nice ideas... But first the tag temperature= has to be accepted. Then 
consideration could be given to other things like the methods used to 
achieve the temperature. You could have lots of things.

Such as
amenity=shower
temperature=adjustable
temperature:range=ambient_to_hot
temperature:method=mixed_ambient_and_heated - where heated to hot water 
is mixed with ambient water to the users setting.


First temperature .. then the sub tags for those interested in them .. even
temperature:method=mixed_ambient_and_heated-electic+solar

But first temperature=
But first temperature= ... the rest can come later as required.
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Re: [Tagging] Nominatim mysteries

[André Pirard]

  
  
On 2015-02-12 02:22, Warin wrote :


  
  Hi,
  

Thanks for your reply.

   
The OSM data is in English. And the data you are trying to
search for is tagged amenity=recycling or
amenity=recycling_point. 

Your trying to search for it using French terms (as shown in the
table you have below) .. some work, some don't. 
  

These statements are compatible with what I have said indeed. 

  This would be an application issue?
Rather than a tagging issue? 
  

This is why I'm seeking advice from those who know Nominatim and the
tags.
If the specification


  page explained what are the queries resulting from a line like
those we would have the start of an explanation.  But they are not
only as fuzzy as usual but also they seem outdated.

   If it is an application issue then
may be better asked on the specific application talk group? 
  

That's adding another problem: where?  If I look at the fuzzy
statement  "(comment: why? nobody has told us anything ->
Discussion)" that could be the discussion page, but if I look at it
...

   Good Luck. 
  

I don't have much.
I thought that it is important to have OSM queried in the user's
language, but it seems I'm the only one, that it's another dream of
mine, like GSM not sending cars where they are not allowed.


  

  André.

  



   On 11/02/2015 10:19 AM, André Pirard
wrote:
  
  

Hi,

Can anyone make sense out of this?
About:  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim/Special_Phrases/FR
Two columns prepended to the table, second: Y=works, N=does not.
All OSM queries are appended with the place name "Dolembreux".
Seeing that #1 works, I add the alternate #2 and it doesn't.
Then I check "recycling Dolembreux" and it doesn't work.
But "recycling point Dolembreux" does work.
(OK, I see that phrase in the EN page, but...)
Now if I add #5, it does work but #3 and #4 don't.
Plus, all the prepositions in entries marked with "?" seem
unnecessary.
The queries with or without them seem to return the same
results;
And yet, the specification


  page defines them.

Am I missing something?


  

  André.

  




  

  1
  
  Y
  
   Point de recyclage 
  amenity
   recycling 
  -
  
  N
  


  2
  
  N
  
   Bulle à verre 
  amenity
   recycling  
  -
  
  N
  


  3
  
  N
  
   Bulle 
   amenity 
   recycling point 
   - 
   N 


  4
  
  N
  
   Bulle verre 
   amenity 
   recycling point
   - 
   N 


  5
  
  Y
  
   Bulle à verre 
   amenity 
   recycling point 
   - 
   N 


  6
  
  Y
  
   Point de recyclage 
   amenity 
   recycling 
   - 
   N 


  7
  
  Y
  
   Points de recyclage 
   amenity 
   recycling 
   - 
   Y 


  
  
  ?
  
   Point de recyclage à 
   amenity 
   recycling 
   in 
   N 


  
  
  ?
  
   Points de recyclage à 
   amenity 
   recycling 
   in 
   Y 


  
  
  ?
  
   Point de recyclage en 
   amenity 
   recycling 
   in 
   N 


  
  
  ?
  
   Points de recyclage en 
   amenity 
   recycling 
   in 
   Y 

Re: [Tagging] Nominatim mysteries

[Marc Gemis]

On Thu, Feb 12, 2015 at 4:24 AM, André Pirard 
wrote:

> That's adding another problem: where?  If I look at the fuzzy statement
> "(comment: why? nobody has told us anything -> Discussion)" that could be
> the discussion page, but if I look at it ...
>
>
The Nominatim FAQ [1] mentions 2 sources [2], [3] to report problems and it
also has the text "You can also contact the developers on IRC
 on channel #osm-nominatim."

regards
m

[1]http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Nominatim/FAQ
[2] http://trac.openstreetmap.org/newticket?component=nominatim
[3] https://github.com/twain47/Nominatim/iss
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[johnw]

>>> 
>> Danger-cold
>> cold
>> cool
>> mild
>> warm
>> hot
>> danger-hot
> 
> But first temperature= 
> But first temperature= ... the rest can come later as required.  


gotcha - those 7 qualitative tags should be included, besides numerical values 
expressed in C. 

You are correct, the method, variability, and adjustable nature can be 
expressed separately.

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Nominatim mysteries

[Warin]

On 12/02/2015 2:24 PM, André Pirard wrote:

On 2015-02-12 02:22, Warin wrote :

Hi,

Thanks for your reply.


Your welcome.


The OSM data is in English. And the data you are trying to search for 
is tagged amenity=recycling or amenity=recycling_point.


Your trying to search for it using French terms (as shown in the 
table you have below) .. some work, some don't.

These statements are compatible with what I have said indeed.
I simply restated the issue in my own language to make certain I 
understood.

This would be an application issue? Rather than a tagging issue?

This is why I'm seeking advice from those who know Nominatim and the tags.
If the specification page 
 
explained what are the queries resulting from a line like those we 
would have the start of an explanation.  But they are not only as 
fuzzy as usual but also they seem outdated.
If it is an application issue then may be better asked on the 
specific application talk group?
That's adding another problem: where?  If I look at the fuzzy 
statement  "(comment: why? nobody has told us anything -> Discussion)" 
that could be the discussion page, but if I look at it ...


Marc looks to have given an answer. Maybe if  the specification page 
 had more 
on it it would be helpfull? Prefereably in French? Once you have more 
maybe you could put it there? Helps the next guy.



Good Luck.

I don't have much.
I thought that it is important to have OSM queried in the user's 
language, but it seems I'm the only one, that it's another dream of mine,


Trust me - your not the only one. Most just bypass the problem and don't 
try to fix it. If you manage the fix .. buy a lottery ticket. If you 
don't come back here and restate the problem and what you have done ... 
someone may know.


Thanks for your answer Marc .. not an area I'm involved in (yet).



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Warin]

On 12/02/2015 3:51 PM, johnw wrote:

Danger-cold
cold
cool
mild
warm
hot
danger-hot

But first temperature=
But first temperature= ... the rest can come later as required.


gotcha - those 7 qualitative tags should be included, besides numerical values 
expressed in C.

You are correct, the method, variability, and adjustable nature can be 
expressed separately.

Javbw

_


Ummm What does a 'mild temperature' mean?

http://forum.wordreference.com/showthread.php?t=1062358 says closer to 
umm 21 C... so if the predicted or normal temperature is cold then it is 
less cold, but if the predicted or normal temperature is hot then it is 
less hot? I think that is hard to render... let alone convey to someone 
with a good English knowledge.


I'll put in the 'dangerous' ones ... another subjective level either 
side of ambient but reasonably easy to explain .. but mild defies me for 
the moment.



Should I remove tepid .. I don't think many would know it or use it 
considering the definition I've given for the 'cold water' tap.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[johnw]

tepid and mild are synonyms, so tepid should cover mild in that way. usually 
tepid is for liquids, and mild is for air / weather, when it comes to 
temperature, AFAIK. 

Is ambient is for the ambient air/weather, ambient ground temp, or ambient 
material temperature? the ambient temperature of the air at the beach is 
30-40C.the water’s ambient temp from the shower nozzle is much lower, thanks to 
it being underground (15-20C?).  Ambient requires knowledge of the surrounding 
area - but we are trying to use qualitative words based on human range.  If I 
stick your hand in a pot of water, and it is tepid - is that the ambient 
temperature of where I got the water? how is that expressed? the fact that it 
is tepid/mild says nothing about the ambient temperature of where it came from.

again - this is subjective or qualitative.  a “tepid” 25C cave is quite nice in 
a 50C desert. 

Trying to match qualitative words to C values would be difficult - and 
impossible if it is for different mediums (air water, metal, etc). 

or is that the exercise? to match qualitative words to known C value ranges for 
the purpose of the Wiki?

I think having some human scale values is important - and weather that is a 
mechanically / chemically / or naturally occurring temperature should be left 
up to the subtag values. 

Javbw

> I'll put in the 'dangerous' ones ... another subjective level either side of 
> ambient but reasonably easy to explain .. but mild defies me for the moment. 
> 
> 
> Should I remove tepid .. I don't think many would know it or use it 
> considering the definition I've given for the 'cold water' tap. 
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Bryce Nesbitt]

On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:51 PM, johnw  wrote:

> >>>
> >> Danger-cold
> >> cold
> >> cool
> >> mild
> >> warm
> >> hot
> >> danger-hot


What are some example nodes, where this proposed tag may apply,
and how you might suggest tagging.

Here are a few possible nodes I thought of:

---
For example near:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2131603829 as documented at
http://www.tripadvisor.com/LocationPhotoDirectLink-g60791-d126799-i77634556-Hot_Creek-Mammoth_Lakes_California.html

Would one tag:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2131603829
With
temperature=danger-hot

---
For
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/3667357
Would that be:
temperature=cold
source=survey on 2014 august, when it was very cold inside

---
For
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/262877905
temperature=boiling

-
And for:
http://www.themresort.com/dining/32draft.html
Should the entire bar be tagged:
temperature=32 F
Or perhaps just the taps for each beer type?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - temperature

[Warin]

On 12/02/2015 6:08 PM, Bryce Nesbitt wrote:
On Wed, Feb 11, 2015 at 8:51 PM, johnw > wrote:


>>>
>> Danger-cold
>> cold
>> cool
>> mild
>> warm
>> hot
>> danger-hot


What are some example nodes, where this proposed tag may apply,
and how you might suggest tagging.


I'd add the tag to any node where I thought the temperature important, 
significant and I knew the temperature .. even if only subjective .. 
such as hot.  If the temperature changes .. then I'd leave the 
temperature tag off until sub tags are available for that.




Here are a few possible nodes I thought of:

--
And for:
http://www.themresort.com/dining/32draft.html
Should the entire bar be tagged:
temperature=32 F


No, the bar is not 32 F?

Or perhaps just the taps for each beer type?


Yes. Each tap could be tagged with the temperature .. and I hope you 
include the names of each beer ...


(Irrelevant factoid: On the Isle of Man there are over 100 beers on tap.)

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