Re: [Tagging] "No abbreviations in names" edge case

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 1:54 AM, Colin Smale  wrote:
>
> Expanding abbreviations grates a bit with the "on the ground rule".
> Navigation applications as well as visual maps need to be able to reproduce
> what the human will see on the ground - often in a language they don't
> know. Sometimes the abbreviated version is more recognisable. There should
> IMHO be an explicit tag to hold the version "as displayed on the signs" for
> any case where the "abbreviator" could be confused.
>
Well, in this case, mapping highway=traffic_sign and the appropriate
ancillary tagging (name=*, etc) makes sense.  Abbreviating the name for the
way is obviously bad, especially since which signs abbreviate and which
don't are frequently wildly different.  And there's places where signs just
aren't updated in any timely fashion to reflect the correct names.  For
example, OK 51 through Broken Arrow is signposted for the route as the
"41st(?) Rainbow Division Memorial Highway", for the motorway segment
within Broken Arrow city limits as "Disabled American Veterans Memorial
Expressway" and for the motorway segment within Tulsa County east of the
Paul Harvey Expressway as "Broken Arrow Expressway".  Once you get east of
the BA city line, much of the signage at ramps still incorrectly identifies
it as "BA Expy", "Broken Arrow Expy" or, even dumber, "Expy East/West".
 The signage doesn't actually reflect the real, spoken name on most cases
through Broken Arrow.  Granted, OklaDOT and it's completely inconsistent
and outright often standards noncompliant (it's common to see Oklahoma
state highways signed with the generic state route shield 20 years after we
developed our own, or the wrong state's route shield entirely (usually a
Texas route shield in this case)), if not flat out wrong (I've actually
seen an Oregon state highway route shield used for a US highway in
Oklahoma!) signage.  Mapping the "ground truth" based on signage alone
would mean some routes change networks 8-12 times per mile...

> Maybe we should distinguish between types of words:
>
> "road types" such as Avenue, Street --> limited set: these can probably be
> expanded reversibly
>
They demonstrably can't.

> "personal titles" such as General, King --> limited set: these can mostly
> be expanded reversibly; in Dutch, "Ingenieur" has two possible
> abbreviations Ir. and Ing. depending on the granting University. Expanding
> them both to Ingenieur loses the distinction, and the "abbreviator" cannot
> make the right decision without having a list of names.
>
I've personally strayed away from this, as exemplified in the Governor
Joseph Turner Turnpike here.

> "personal names" such as "Winston Churchill" --> infinite set: these are
> often (but not always) abbreviated - how far do you go with the expansion?
> Should "W. Churchillstraat" be expanded to "Winston Leonard Spencer
> Churchillstraat"? Perhaps we should leave personal names as they are on the
> signs.
>
I'd go with Winston Churchillstraat, personally.  I tend to expand full
names in Oklahoma mostly because full names are the norm for honorific
locale names here.  One extreme example:  "Officer Larry W. Cantrell and
Mister Charles L. Cantrell Memorial Highway", for which the only reason
middle initials even play into question is because I can't find the
expansions for those, but they appear on the signage (though midpoint
signage still incorrectly lists, alternatively, "New Sapulpa Road,"
"Sapulpa Road" or "US Highway 66"), "Sapulpa Road" was never accurate for
this way, as Frankoma Road was formerly Sapulpa Road, and is presently
signed, in roughly equal frequency, "Frankoma Road," "Old Sapulpa Road,"
"Sapulpa Road," and "US Highway 66."
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Re: [Tagging] Reviewing the use of addr:housename

[Serge Wroclawski]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 12:31 AM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 2:15 PM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:
>>
>> Perhaps there's a call for a building name tag which may or may not be
>> the addr:housename tag?
>
>
> I think that's called "name=*"

Paul, if you'd read the actual instances of addr:housename that I
provided earlier on this thread, then you'd have seen that the name
field is already being used for the POI itself (as it should be).

What we have in the United States are examples where people will put
in the name of the structure, such as the mall that a store is in as
the addr:housename.

- Serge

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Re: [Tagging] Pipeline bridges

[Volker Schmidt]

This one of "my" pipeline bridges:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/132791265
https://www.google.com/maps/@45.292027,11.927267,3a,75y,153.47h,91.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sr2gRzPpcw10yML5dM5LgXQ!2e0
You see it from miles away.


On 19 June 2014 06:47, Paul Johnson  wrote:

> I'm going to dispute that claim and back it up with a recent news article
> and aerial view... can't recall if it's mapped in OSM yet, it's close
> enough to Lewis Avenue that I honestly didn't notice it driving until I got
> detoured around it earlier this month.
>
> http://www.newson6.com/story/25713388/interstate-244-near-lewis-shut-down
>
> http://maps.google.com/?q=36.160647,-95.957975&hl=en&gl=us
> On Jun 18, 2014 5:13 AM, "Pieren"  wrote:
>
>> On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>>  wrote:
>> >> I expect that it would be [man_made=pipeline, location=overground,
>> >> bridge=yes, layer=*].
>> > +1
>>
>> -1
>> I would expect "bridge=yes" to be combined with highways only. Here
>> nobody can walk/drive on the pipe. We don't call it a bridge.
>> "location=overground" is enough.
>>
>> Pieren
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Pipeline bridges

[sabas88]

If we consider aqueducts
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/176520234#map=18/44.45802/8.97848
http://www.acquedottogenova.altervista.org/images/01-primo%20itinerario/46_sifone%20geirato.jpg
http://www.oruko.altervista.org/images/curiosita-ponti/11b-sifone%20geirato.jpg

Otherwise here's a bridge/gas pipeline
https://www.google.com/maps/@44.434533,8.961157,3a,49.2y,174h,90.72t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1suvazafJHL3TJQ8kTGRRVwQ!2e0?hl=en

On OSM it's not tagged as pipeline http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/5625784

Regards,
Stefano


2014-06-19 10:33 GMT+02:00 Volker Schmidt :

> This one of "my" pipeline bridges:
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/132791265
>
> https://www.google.com/maps/@45.292027,11.927267,3a,75y,153.47h,91.57t/data=!3m4!1e1!3m2!1sr2gRzPpcw10yML5dM5LgXQ!2e0
> You see it from miles away.
>
>
> On 19 June 2014 06:47, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
>> I'm going to dispute that claim and back it up with a recent news article
>> and aerial view... can't recall if it's mapped in OSM yet, it's close
>> enough to Lewis Avenue that I honestly didn't notice it driving until I got
>> detoured around it earlier this month.
>>
>> http://www.newson6.com/story/25713388/interstate-244-near-lewis-shut-down
>>
>> http://maps.google.com/?q=36.160647,-95.957975&hl=en&gl=us
>> On Jun 18, 2014 5:13 AM, "Pieren"  wrote:
>>
>>> On Wed, Jun 18, 2014 at 11:28 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
>>>  wrote:
>>> >> I expect that it would be [man_made=pipeline, location=overground,
>>> >> bridge=yes, layer=*].
>>> > +1
>>>
>>> -1
>>> I would expect "bridge=yes" to be combined with highways only. Here
>>> nobody can walk/drive on the pipe. We don't call it a bridge.
>>> "location=overground" is enough.
>>>
>>> Pieren
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Reviewing the use of addr:housename

[Pieren]

On Thu, Jun 19, 2014 at 10:14 AM, Serge Wroclawski  wrote:

> Paul, if you'd read the actual instances of addr:housename that I
> provided earlier on this thread, then you'd have seen that the name
> field is already being used for the POI itself (as it should be).

But this is a mistake. "addr:housename" has not been created to
replace "name", "operator", "brand" or "addr:housenumber". As the wiki
says, it has been created for houses without numbers and designated by
a name. If you build an address for a POI, you need all tags "addr:*"
plus the POI "name". We don't have to duplicate the POI name into
"addr:housename".

Pieren

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Re: [Tagging] Reviewing the use of addr:housename

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2014-06-19 10:14 GMT+02:00 Serge Wroclawski :

> Paul, if you'd read the actual instances of addr:housename that I
> provided earlier on this thread, then you'd have seen that the name
> field is already being used for the POI itself (as it should be).
>


-1, the name is the name of the tagged feature, if there is a building with
a POI in it and you want to do it cleanly, you should seperate the two into
different objects (a building and a POI in it) so you can give each of them
their name unambigously. If you have a building without a name you can also
lazily mix them up, but I'd always see this as an interim solution, because
there will probably be more properties which will (when more detail is
tagged) have to be associated just to one of the two, e.g. start_date,
wikipedia, operator, ...

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Emergency Access

[André Pirard]

On 2014-06-19 01:49, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote :

> Am 19/giu/2014 um 00:38 schrieb André Pirard  >:
>
>> To exclude all other vehicles, one must add (see key=access category
>> tree
>> )
>> access=n
> with access=no you exclude everybody (also pedestrians, etc), to
> exclude vehicles use vehicle=no
That's right, "exclude all other vehicles" as I say but also the rest.
That's why, much like you, I was continuing with:
> Or, to exclude just motor vehicles:
> motor_vehicle=no
That's allowing bicycles too if that's wanted.
But that's not the end. You will probably want to exclude the now allowed:
motor_vehicle=no
carriage=no
trailer=no
ski=no
inline_skates=no
ice_skates=no
horse=no

And OSM does not support "men leading animals" of the Belgian code,
especially important for elephants ;-)

So, the simplest after all is probably what you want of:
access=no
emergency=yes
foot=yes
bicycle=yes

Cheers,

André.







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Re: [Tagging] Emergency Access

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 19/giu/2014 um 13:18 schrieb André Pirard :
> 
> So, the simplest after all is probably what you want of:
> access=no
> emergency=yes
> foot=yes
> bicycle=yes


I would use vehicle=no instead of access=no to avoid excluding too much by 
accident. Also makes foot=yes obsolete.

cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] "No abbreviations in names" edge case

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

> Am 19/giu/2014 um 08:54 schrieb Colin Smale :
> 
> There should IMHO be an explicit tag to hold the version "as displayed on the 
> signs" for any case where the "abbreviator" could be confused.


+1, also useful for cases where the name on the sign is misspelled. For 
abbreviated versions you might (?) also use the tag short_name.

there are 13 name:signposted in the db, not sure if there are more established 
alternatives...


cheers 
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] "No abbreviations in names" edge case

[John Packer]

>
> there are 13 name:signposted in the db, not sure if there are more
> established alternatives...
>
I don't think we should use this key, since it clashes with the usage of
the key name for other languages (i.e. name: ).
Something like name_signposted would be okay though.

BTW there are some objects with the key name:abbreviation, which also
clashes, is not standard and IMO can be safely changed to the key short_name
.



2014-06-19 11:44 GMT-03:00 Martin Koppenhoefer :

>
>
> > Am 19/giu/2014 um 08:54 schrieb Colin Smale :
> >
> > There should IMHO be an explicit tag to hold the version "as displayed
> on the signs" for any case where the "abbreviator" could be confused.
>
>
> +1, also useful for cases where the name on the sign is misspelled. For
> abbreviated versions you might (?) also use the tag short_name.
>
> there are 13 name:signposted in the db, not sure if there are more
> established alternatives...
>
>
> cheers
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] "No abbreviations in names" edge case

[Tobias Knerr]

Am 19.06.2014 16:59, schrieb John Packer:
> there are 13 name:signposted in the db, not sure if there are more
> established alternatives...
> 
> I don't think we should use this key, since it clashes with the usage of
> the key name for other languages (i.e. name: ).
> Something like name_signposted would be okay though.

signposted_name would be more consistent with existing keys like
old_name, short_name and so on, so I would prefer it that way.

But I like the idea of having a key for the signposted spelling available.

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Re: [Tagging] "No abbreviations in names" edge case

[Serge Wroclawski]

> But I like the idea of having a key for the signposted spelling available.

Of course I could bring up the fact that FDR Drive in NYC is spelled
FDR Drive and  F.D.R. Drive, and F D R Drive, depending on which sign
you look at. :)

- Serge

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