Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - use_sideway (was bicycle=use_cycleway)

[Pee Wee]

We followed Pieren's advice on the Talk
pageand
made the proposal
much
shorter.  This focuses on making clear what the proposal is and not so much
on our arguments. For those that are interested in our arguments we've made
a   sub 
page
including our comment on last proposal. Hope this helps.

With regard to Matthijs his question I can say that in yesterday's
newspaper (algemeen dagblad)  I read that NL has 35.000 KM of cycleways.

Not sure why Matthijs qoute's the "no backward compatibility to the
existing bicycle=no (in e.g. NL)" .  We've commented on that in the
proposal (which has moved to the subpage)

Cheers

PeeWee32


2014-03-17 0:07 GMT+01:00 Matthijs Melissen :

> On 16 March 2014 17:34, Pee Wee  wrote:
> > Last november we proposed the "bicycle=use_cycleway".  There was a lot of
> > discussion before and during voting. The voting was very close but we
> > decided to reject the proposal and work on a new one.
>
> | no backward compatibility to the existing bicycle=no (in e.g. NL)
>
> Just curious: can anyone find out how many percent of the ways with
> highway=cyclepath are located in the Netherlands? It seems Tagwatch
> doesn't exist anymore, so I don't really know how to get these data.
>
> -- Matthijs
>
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-- 
Verbeter de wereld. Word mapper voor Openstreetmap
.
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Re: [Tagging] Landuse=civic_admin

[johnw]

On Mar 21, 2014, at 4:06 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:

> 
> 2014-03-20 19:24 GMT+01:00 Kytömaa Lauri :
> They ("civil features") don't exist to produce income (even if they somewhat 
> do) so the "commerce" part is missing, but they exist because the society has 
> deemed that it's necessary to make the things that they do happen
> 
> 
> OK, this is interesting, and very broad.

> Would landuse=civic also include Concert-halls and theatres? Museums? But 
> only if operated by the government or not for profit?

Civic, to me, is something for the the public good, or to serve the public. 
Museums and concert halls, opera theaters, etc are usually for events for any 
citizen, as opposed to disneyland, which is for disney. Many art galleries are 
private and even if they are non=profit, you still have to pay to enter - so 
there is not much distinction needed between public and private, if it is for 
3rd party events that anyone can go to see. Most host rotating events or shows 
that are an interest to the public. 


Generally.
I think that civic is a good land choice, and it is a pretty broad category, 
but I do like your idea of using a subtag to break it up. "Institutional" would 
be the proper form of Institution. 

Landuse=institutional + institutional=

- education
- medical
- civic_office
- civic_assembly
-civic_services
- Judicial
- civic_event_center  might be a good additional one, for recreation centres, 
(mixed use buildings with pools and other leisure amenities), community 
centres, community halls, public sports centers, concert halls and event 
buildings, stadiums, etc - even museums.


> 
> 
> What about a server farm? It's probably not "industrial", by common 
> classification I think it is put into the tertiary sector, still it is 
> clearly there to produce profit (like all the businesses in the tertiary 
> sector, e.g. telcos, mass media, hospitality industry (hotels, ski resorts), 
> etc.) so it won't merit the landuse=civic tag, and we are probably still 
> missing at least another landuse tag for those, unless it's offices 
> (commercial) or a waste dumping ground. Or would you see it included in 
> "commercial"

A server farm is almost always a for-profit commercial building. it's a 
building full of computers doing a big job for big corporations - jobs that 
make those companies money  (they hope). Amazon, Microsoft, Google, and Apple 
all operate massive server farms, all doing for-profit work. Totally 
commercial, just not an office. 

physical waste is a byproduct of production, which is usually industrial - is 
this for mining, like a tailing pile?  A waste yard in a industrial plant is 
just part of the landuse industrial, and the junk pile from the quarry is 
usually part of the quarry, same with the mine. Are there industrial dump sites 
that are separated from the source? if they were, wouldn't it always be 
landuse=industrial - unless it was in the business of accepting other people's 
garbage (and therefore a landfill?)

Ski park is tourism. Hotels are commercial, maybe with commercial=hospitality 
subtag. 


> The landuse tag is not about zoning, or in other words what you are allowed 
> to build on a given plot, but rather what is the actual current usage (on the 
> ground rule). Do not feel tempted to think that's the same, it often really 
> isn't ;-)

+1 

> 
> 
> landuse=leisure:
> -skiing park, zoo, theme park, or other tourist attraction.
> 
> 
> I think I understand what you are after, but I wouldn't put the word "tourist 
> attraction" into the definition, because literally everything interesting can 
> become a tourist attraction, I wouldn't see this as a class of objects on its 
> own. A waterfall can be a tourist attraction, but this wouldn't make it a 
> landuse=leisure, just like many churches are tourist attractions etc.

There is a tourism=theme_park / and leisure=water_park 

Wouldn't a landuse=commercial commercial=tourism - be perfect for this kind of 
stuff?  of course, the waterfall (tree, rock, whatever) , if notable, would be 
a point tourism=attraction in a park or forest, or a tag on an existing 
structure that is popular with tourists. Right?


Javbw

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Re: [Tagging] surface=ground/dirt/earth

[Pieren]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 1:09 AM, Fernando Trebien
 wrote:

> If so many people agree that the current values are inappropriate

"smoothness" was very controversial from its beginning. It is not used
by any data consumer and probably will never be in the future (for the
reasons already reported here). But people use it.

> let's write a proposal for the new
> values, get it approved (should be easy) and recommend against using
> the old (current) values.

Your new values remembers me an older proposal:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Tags/practicability

There might be some others since this discussion is not really new.

> http://oi59.tinypic.com/33fala8.jpg
> highway=path + smoothness=off_road_wheels + tracktype=grade2 +
> mtb:scale=3 + sac_scale=mountain_hiking + surface=rocky

I think in general, we should clearly distinguish "practicability"
tags for tracks and paths because it's not the same type of
transportation (4 wheels vehicles  for "track" and mtb, (atv),
off-road motocycles, pedestrians for "path"). Please keep "mtb:scale"
and "sac_scale" for paths/footways and "tracktype" for tracks.
Otherwise it will be very confusing for everyone.

> http://oi59.tinypic.com/4htmag.jpg
> highway=path + smoothness=robust_wheels + tracktype=grade4 +
> mtb:scale=0 + sac_scale=hiking + surface=earth

This example is a track for me.

Pieren

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Re: [Tagging] surface=ground/dirt/earth

[Fernando Trebien]

It can be a track indeed, my choice would depend on actual width. It's
impossible to be sure if a standard car fits it from a fixed photo,
perspective can be tricky at such assessments.

The wiki articles on mtb:scale and sac_scale state very clearly that
these tags can be applied to both tracks and paths. It's been years
that JOSM has had presets allowing these combinations. And it seems to
make sense since some tracks (and even normal highways) can be really
rough and deserve non-zero values for mtb:scale and sac_scale.

sac_scale can also be used on footways (says the wiki). In the
Brazilian context, this makes sense since we have decided to use
footways for paved foot paths and path for the unpaved ones. Some of
our footways (often sidewalks) have terrible pavement quality and are
worthy of non-zero sac_scale. Specifically in Brazil, since footways
can be used by bikes, they can also get an mtb:scale eventually.

Tracktype is often used on non-tracks too, says the wiki, and there's
a statistic there showing people have been combining it with paths too
(and more often than with residential streets). At this point, I'm not
contesting this tag anymore; rather, I'm trying to understand how is
that people understand it and use it.

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Re: [Tagging] Opinion on meaning of tracktype, smoothness and surface for routing

[André Pirard]

  
  
On 2014-03-20 15:29, Martin
  Koppenhoefer wrote :


  

  2014-03-20 15:02 GMT+01:00 André
Pirard :

  Following a gentle
dispute on OSM-talk-be about the class of a particular
road, I pointed out without any follow-up  that road
classification (primary ... tertiary, as well as
national ... local on IGN maps) is very subjective but
that the road width is very objective.



yes, the highway classification is slightly subjective
  but as osm shows, the cloud can usually find a commonly
  accepted values, so this doesn't seem to be a real problem
  (also because it doesn't really matter if a road is
  classified as secondary rather than primary, and more than
  one class up or down is usually not the range up to
  discussion). 

  

  

The problem comes with such
  roads as Belgian N674 which is uniformly classified as
national on IGN official maps. On the eastern part, it's worth the
primary status for through, heavy traffic.  On the center part, it's
certainly only secondary.  But on the part going NW it's a dangerous
road. And, despite its official status, only its 5 m width and bends
can show that : 2.5 m wide lorries can't cross each other and they
step on the verge. The road once crumbled down into the meadow below
and is waiting for the next turn. Even cars must break and make a
brisk turn.  It would be nice that  OSM routing avoided that road.

  

  
Of course everybody is free to add a road width as
  well, there is the tag "width" for this, and also the tag
  "lanes". Unfortunately until now, only 5% of all
  highway-elements (admittedly not only roads) have the tag
  lanes and 1% has the tag width.

  

  

The width would come as a complementary information: avoid it
despite a gentle official classification apparency.

  

  

    Moreover, the
width can be very easily measured with JOSM on Bing.
  



you should be careful with the spherical mercator
  projection though, you might end up with different widths
  for the same width due to different latitudes, I am not
  sure how precise those measurements in JOSM actually are
  (some time ago they weren't but maybe this is fixed now).

  

  

Good point that would have to be analyzed. Especially if there's a
difference between NS and EW measurements!

  

  

   Of course, the
closely related parameter is speed.
  



related to width? I do not think there is a close
  relation, at least not a reliable one.

  

  

Speed (to drive safely) is not intrinsic but in fact a consequence
of other factors, including narrow width. Or it can be enforced.

  

  

   While reading your
texts, I've had a crazy idea:  measuring vibration in
the car. There are Android vibration measuring programs
like Vibration Monitoring.  Alas, car vibration is very
much dependent on car suspension.  But would some of us
experiment this or another idea and come up with a
solution?
  



this sounds interesting indeed, while I agree that it
  mostly depends on the car suspension. With (unsuspended)
  bicycles this would be more reliable I guess, but still
  the ability of the driver / rider to avoid holes in the
  surface might make a huge difference (e.g. in Rome there
  are some very bad roads with profund holes that get tapped
  every now and then but later reopen due to the heavy
  traffic. If you are on roads that you drive often you
  almost automatically get the habit of avoiding them, also
  at higher speeds, because you know their exact locations
  by mind).

  

  

Yes, dodging the suspension would be the idea, see next.

On 2014-03-20 23:18, David Bannon wrote
  :


  If we wanted to measure vibration I guess we could have a process to
calibrate individual car's suspension. Maybe something lik

Re: [Tagging] Opinion on meaning of tracktype, smoothness and surface for routing

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:24 AM, André Pirard wrote:

   The problem comes with such roads as Belgian
N674which
is uniformly classified as national on IGN official maps. On the
> eastern part, it's worth the primary status for through, heavy traffic.  On
> the center part, it's certainly only secondary.  But on the part going NW
> it's a dangerous road. And, despite its official status, only its 5 m width
> and bends can show that : 2.5 m wide lorries can't cross each other and
> they step on the verge. The road once crumbled down into the meadow below
> and is waiting for the next turn. Even cars must break and make a brisk
> turn.  It would be nice that  OSM routing avoided that road.
>

Sounds like a reasonably well equipped routing engine would naturally avoid
it if there's a better alternate available just based on the number and
radius of curves, classification of the roadway, surface type, and the
vehicle being driven.  Bonus if horizontal and vertical limitations of the
roadway are mapped and the routing engine is aware of the x, y and z
dimensions of the vehicle in question (which is why I see a lot of
"driverless vehicle" technology being more practical for navigation
assistance for human drivers than as a fully autonomous vehicle).

>   Of course everybody is free to add a road width as well, there is the
> tag "width" for this, and also the tag "lanes". Unfortunately until now,
> only 5% of all highway-elements (admittedly not only roads) have the tag
> lanes and 1% has the tag width.
>
> The width would come as a complementary information: avoid it despite a
> gentle official classification apparency.
>

Does anyplace outside North America subjectively tag highway=* or is it
formally tied to the official classification in most places, such as it is
in the UK?

>  Moreover, the width can be very easily measured with JOSM on Bing.
>>
>
>  you should be careful with the spherical mercator projection though, you
> might end up with different widths for the same width due to different
> latitudes, I am not sure how precise those measurements in JOSM actually
> are (some time ago they weren't but maybe this is fixed now).
>
> Good point that would have to be analyzed. Especially if there's a
> difference between NS and EW measurements!
>

I would also be interested in hearing if the JOSM measurement tools are
currently maintained to be accurate.  Granted, I'm not expecting it to be
as accurate as finding some survey marks on either verge and start running
survey lines (for a couple reasons, 1) A digital theodolite, it's
accessories, getting licensed as a traffic control engineer, filing permits
and putting out traffic control devices to do so safely and accurately is
probably beyond the reach of almost everyone here besides the parallel
universe me that won the Powerball jackpot and now has nothing better to
do; and 2) most available aerial imagery, when properly aligned, seems to
be getting us a horizontal dilution of precision within the resolution of
the imagery or better on objects created by relatively skilled and
experienced mappers (based on triangulation from known survey markers to
known points and lines when I've had the access to professional surveying
equipment).

>Of course, the closely related parameter is speed.
>>
>
>  related to width? I do not think there is a close relation, at least not
> a reliable one.
>
> Speed (to drive safely) is not intrinsic but in fact a consequence of
> other factors, including narrow width. Or it can be enforced.
>

In some places, quite strictly.  Oklahoma will write you up for 76 in a 75
maxspeed or 39 in a 40 minspeed.  The resulting speed uniformity does make
Oklahoma one of the easier states to drive in, assuming your driving
personality is more positive than chaotic neutral on either or both axes
(otherwise, it tends to be expensive, dangerous or both).

>While reading your texts, I've had a crazy idea:  measuring vibration
>> in the car. There are Android vibration measuring programs like Vibration
>> Monitoring.  Alas, car vibration is very much dependent on car suspension.
>> But would some of us experiment this or another idea and come up with a
>> solution?
>>
>
>  this sounds interesting indeed, while I agree that it mostly depends on
> the car suspension. With (unsuspended) bicycles this would be more reliable
> I guess, but still the ability of the driver / rider to avoid holes in the
> surface might make a huge difference (e.g. in Rome there are some very bad
> roads with profund holes that get tapped every now and then but later
> reopen due to the heavy traffic. If you are on roads that you drive often
> you almost automatically get the habit of avoiding them, also at higher
> speeds, because you know their exact locations by mind).
>
> Yes, dodging the suspension would be the idea, see next.
>

Even on a fixed-fork hardtail bicycle, ride quality is still dr

Re: [Tagging] Opinion on meaning of tracktype, smoothness and surface for routing

[Fernando Trebien]

Why 40, or why 50? Are these sensible choices for ways like those below?
* 
http://cdn.c.photoshelter.com/img-get/ILEZumn6Zhqo/s/900/900/ERITREA-00085-BC3.jpg
* http://www.mongolia-travel-guide.com/image-files/mrm-mongolia-main-road.jpg
* http://www.horizonsunlimited.com/tstories/duval/images/037%20IMG_3494.jpg
* http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2434/3897036578_12207239a3_o.jpg
* http://i37.tinypic.com/r74ro0.jpg
* http://www.ecosystema.ru/08nature/world/64ang/01.jpg
* 
http://www.orderofmalta.int/wp-content/uploads/2011/07/Congo-new-road-MI-small.jpg
* http://beta.images.theglobeandmail.com/archive/00539/Road-1_jpg_539581gm-b.jpg
* http://codigolivre.net/wp-content/uploads/buracos-estrada.jpg

Take a look at the descriptions of tracktype, smoothness and surface
tag on the wiki, think about what their worst values are talking about
and about how widely each value of the surface tag can vary in meaning
for applications. Some people wouldn't even dare to try traveling
these roads. I doubt those that would, would do so at 40kmph on a
standard car, much less on a bike (which I don't think would capture
these situations).

You may wish to consider people's opinions on this thread too:
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2014-March/016977.html

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:29 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 11:24 AM, André Pirard 
> wrote:
>
>> The problem comes with such roads as Belgian N674 which is uniformly
>> classified as national on IGN official maps. On the eastern part, it's worth
>> the primary status for through, heavy traffic.  On the center part, it's
>> certainly only secondary.  But on the part going NW it's a dangerous road.
>> And, despite its official status, only its 5 m width and bends can show that
>> : 2.5 m wide lorries can't cross each other and they step on the verge. The
>> road once crumbled down into the meadow below and is waiting for the next
>> turn. Even cars must break and make a brisk turn.  It would be nice that
>> OSM routing avoided that road.
>
>
> Sounds like a reasonably well equipped routing engine would naturally avoid
> it if there's a better alternate available just based on the number and
> radius of curves, classification of the roadway, surface type, and the
> vehicle being driven.  Bonus if horizontal and vertical limitations of the
> roadway are mapped and the routing engine is aware of the x, y and z
> dimensions of the vehicle in question (which is why I see a lot of
> "driverless vehicle" technology being more practical for navigation
> assistance for human drivers than as a fully autonomous vehicle).
>>
>> Of course everybody is free to add a road width as well, there is the tag
>> "width" for this, and also the tag "lanes". Unfortunately until now, only 5%
>> of all highway-elements (admittedly not only roads) have the tag lanes and
>> 1% has the tag width.
>>
>> The width would come as a complementary information: avoid it despite a
>> gentle official classification apparency.
>
>
> Does anyplace outside North America subjectively tag highway=* or is it
> formally tied to the official classification in most places, such as it is
> in the UK?
>>>
>>>   Moreover, the width can be very easily measured with JOSM on Bing.
>>
>>
>> you should be careful with the spherical mercator projection though, you
>> might end up with different widths for the same width due to different
>> latitudes, I am not sure how precise those measurements in JOSM actually are
>> (some time ago they weren't but maybe this is fixed now).
>>
>> Good point that would have to be analyzed. Especially if there's a
>> difference between NS and EW measurements!
>
>
> I would also be interested in hearing if the JOSM measurement tools are
> currently maintained to be accurate.  Granted, I'm not expecting it to be as
> accurate as finding some survey marks on either verge and start running
> survey lines (for a couple reasons, 1) A digital theodolite, it's
> accessories, getting licensed as a traffic control engineer, filing permits
> and putting out traffic control devices to do so safely and accurately is
> probably beyond the reach of almost everyone here besides the parallel
> universe me that won the Powerball jackpot and now has nothing better to do;
> and 2) most available aerial imagery, when properly aligned, seems to be
> getting us a horizontal dilution of precision within the resolution of the
> imagery or better on objects created by relatively skilled and experienced
> mappers (based on triangulation from known survey markers to known points
> and lines when I've had the access to professional surveying equipment).
>>>
>>> Of course, the closely related parameter is speed.
>>
>>
>> related to width? I do not think there is a close relation, at least not a
>> reliable one.
>>
>> Speed (to drive safely) is not intrinsic but in fact a consequence of
>> other factors, including narrow width. Or it can be enforced.
>
>
> In some places, quite strictly.  Ok

Re: [Tagging] Opinion on meaning of tracktype, smoothness and surface for routing

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 13:29 -0500, Paul Johnson wrote:

>  
> Does anyplace outside North America subjectively tag highway=* or is
> it formally tied to the official classification in most places, such
> as it is in the UK?

In the UK, tertiary/unclassified/residential is subjective, other roads
are tagged according to their official classification.

In terms of routing in the UK, smoothness is not so much of an issue.
The major factors are width (whether 2 vehicles can pass without slowing
down), twistiness and visibility (the two go together, we have a lot of
hedges which reduce forward visibility).

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] Opinion on meaning of tracktype, smoothness and surface for routing

[Fernando Trebien]

Brazil has no official system of classification (there is an
"administrative" classification, which the Brazilian community found
useless to determine the way's "importance"), so we've come up with
this general recommendation (which may not be followed closely, in
which case the mapper should add a note explaining why):
http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png

Visibility is an interesting criteria, do you take it into account
when deciding classification? Do you tag it?

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 13:29 -0500, Paul Johnson wrote:
>
>>
>> Does anyplace outside North America subjectively tag highway=* or is
>> it formally tied to the official classification in most places, such
>> as it is in the UK?
>
> In the UK, tertiary/unclassified/residential is subjective, other roads
> are tagged according to their official classification.
>
> In terms of routing in the UK, smoothness is not so much of an issue.
> The major factors are width (whether 2 vehicles can pass without slowing
> down), twistiness and visibility (the two go together, we have a lot of
> hedges which reduce forward visibility).
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
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"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)

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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Fernando Trebien]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer  wrote:
> There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left.
>
> According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries,
> and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country.
>
> So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation,
> however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?).
>
> There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted driving
> side.
> So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have
> it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side.
>
> Is there any interest of using it on countries?
> If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from
> this tag's documentation.
>
> Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only
> one value: driving_side=opposite
> (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use)
>
> What do you think?
>
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"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)

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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Fernando Trebien]

I wonder what you mean by "Is there any interest of using it on
countries?". It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as
you said.

You could simply tag the country with "driving_side=right/left" and
use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets.

That said, I think driving side also implies "driver side" inside the
vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to see this information in use
one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver
side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that
can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side
changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the
description of "opposite".

One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier
between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a
separate way with no special change in driving side.

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando Trebien
 wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer  wrote:
>> There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left.
>>
>> According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries,
>> and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country.
>>
>> So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation,
>> however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?).
>>
>> There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted driving
>> side.
>> So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have
>> it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side.
>>
>> Is there any interest of using it on countries?
>> If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from
>> this tag's documentation.
>>
>> Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only
>> one value: driving_side=opposite
>> (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use)
>>
>> What do you think?
>>
>> ___
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>>
>
>
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
> "The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)



-- 
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+55 (51) 9962-5409

"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)

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[Tagging] Driving side

[John Packer]

There is a tag documented on the wiki called
driving_side
=right/left.

According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries,
and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country.

So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a
relation, however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?).

There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an *inverted* driving
side.
So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have
it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side.

Is there any interest of using it on countries?
If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from
this tag's documentation.

Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have only
one value: driving_side=opposite
(this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use)

What do you think?
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Re: [Tagging] Fixing wrong opening_hours automatically

[Paul Johnson]

On Thu, Mar 6, 2014 at 3:47 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
wrote:

> 2014-03-05 21:25 GMT+01:00 Robin `ypid` Schneider :
>
> There is no key öffnungszeiten, but yes it is only about the key
>> opening_hours.
>> As said before I am not going to change the meaning. The value '"nach
>> Vereinbarung"' is used more often so that's another reason for that.
>>
>
>
> I am generally opposing german language values in formalized tags *),
> especially where a generic fact is expressed that has a corresponding word
> in English like here.


I agree with Martin.  There's really no good reason (with the exception of
the soccer/gridiron disambiguation and situations substantially similar) to
not use UK English for the sake of consistency.
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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:07 PM, John Packer  wrote:

> There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an *inverted*driving 
> side.
> So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have
> it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side.
>

In the US, I'm aware that there's some instances of this, however, are
there any instances where this is the case and there's no median?  Because
I'm unaware of any that are on a single carriageway in the US.
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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[John Packer]

> It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as you said.

I don't think I said that, all I said was "according to taginfo it is used
only *once* on a relation".
If people aren't going to use it, I intend to restrict it's use to streets.
It seems it wasn't formally proposed anyway.

I don't see why there should be any distinction regarding the driver's side.

One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier
> between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a
> separate way with no special change in driving side.
>
The streets I mentioned do not have any physical barrier. Also, there are
some signs indicating they use an inverted driving side ("Mão inglesa")
This is one of these streets: http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/266622965


2014-03-21 17:24 GMT-03:00 Fernando Trebien :

> I wonder what you mean by "Is there any interest of using it on
> countries?". It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as
> you said.
>
> You could simply tag the country with "driving_side=right/left" and
> use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets.
>
> That said, I think driving side also implies "driver side" inside the
> vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to see this information in use
> one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver
> side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that
> can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side
> changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the
> description of "opposite".
>
> One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier
> between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a
> separate way with no special change in driving side.
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando Trebien
>  wrote:
> > On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer 
> wrote:
> >> There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left.
> >>
> >> According to it's description, this tag should only be used on
> countries,
> >> and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country.
> >>
> >> So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a
> relation,
> >> however there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?).
> >>
> >> There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted driving
> >> side.
> >> So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include ways that
> have
> >> it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving side.
> >>
> >> Is there any interest of using it on countries?
> >> If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from
> >> this tag's documentation.
> >>
> >> Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined to have
> only
> >> one value: driving_side=opposite
> >> (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use)
> >>
> >> What do you think?
> >>
> >> ___
> >> Tagging mailing list
> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> >>
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > Fernando Trebien
> > +55 (51) 9962-5409
> >
> > "The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
> > "The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
>
>
>
> --
> Fernando Trebien
> +55 (51) 9962-5409
>
> "The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
> "The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 17:24 -0300, Fernando Trebien wrote:
> I wonder what you mean by "Is there any interest of using it on
> countries?". It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as
> you said.
> 
> You could simply tag the country with "driving_side=right/left" and
> use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets.
> 
> That said, I think driving side also implies "driver side" inside the
> vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to see this information in use
> one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver
> side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that
> can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side
> changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the
> description of "opposite".
> 
> One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier
> between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a
> separate way with no special change in driving side.

Car headlights are aligned to point slightly towards the nearside to
avoid dazzling oncoming drivers. For instance when we take our UK cars
to mainland Europe, we have to 'convert' the headlights to point the
other way,
http://www.amazon.co.uk/Eurolites-Headlamp-Adaptors-Driving-Europe/dp/B001P5SPJW

If there is no physical barrier, I would expect dazzling to be a major
problem on that stretch of road.

Phil (trigpoint)



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Re: [Tagging] Opinion on meaning of tracktype, smoothness and surface for routing

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 17:15 -0300, Fernando Trebien wrote:
> Brazil has no official system of classification (there is an
> "administrative" classification, which the Brazilian community found
> useless to determine the way's "importance"), so we've come up with
> this general recommendation (which may not be followed closely, in
> which case the mapper should add a note explaining why):
> http://i.imgur.com/YH8azIA.png
> 
> Visibility is an interesting criteria, do you take it into account
> when deciding classification? Do you tag it?

We don't tag is specifically, but it is part of the mental
tertiary/unclassified decision process.

As hedges are mapped more, maybe that is an additional factor routers
will be able to use.

Phil (trigpoint)

> 
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 4:41 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> > On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 13:29 -0500, Paul Johnson wrote:
> >
> >>
> >> Does anyplace outside North America subjectively tag highway=* or is
> >> it formally tied to the official classification in most places, such
> >> as it is in the UK?
> >
> > In the UK, tertiary/unclassified/residential is subjective, other roads
> > are tagged according to their official classification.
> >
> > In terms of routing in the UK, smoothness is not so much of an issue.
> > The major factors are width (whether 2 vehicles can pass without slowing
> > down), twistiness and visibility (the two go together, we have a lot of
> > hedges which reduce forward visibility).
> >
> > Phil (trigpoint)
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> 
> 
> 



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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Colin Smale]

 

Sorry, bad idea. We map the roads, not the vehicles. It is not illegal
to drive a car with the wheel on the "wrong" side - millions of
Europeans do it regularly, both on holiday and because certain models of
car are only made for certain markets. Let's stick to driving_side
referring to the side of the road. 

By the way, when Samoa changed from driving on the right to driving on
the left a couple of years ago, that was because most of the vehicles
were imported second-hand from Australia and therefore had the steering
wheel on the right anyway... 

Colin 

On 2014-03-21 21:24, Fernando Trebien wrote: 

> I wonder what you mean by "Is there any interest of using it on
> countries?". It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as
> you said.
> 
> You could simply tag the country with "driving_side=right/left" and
> use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets.
> 
> That said, I think driving side also implies "driver side" inside the
> vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to see this information in use
> one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver
> side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that
> can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side
> changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the
> description of "opposite".
> 
> One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier
> between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a
> separate way with no special change in driving side.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando Trebien
>  wrote:
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer  wrote: 
> There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left. 
> According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries, and 
> it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country. So far so good, 
> but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation, however there 
> are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?). There are, in my city, a 
> couple of streets that have an inverted driving side. So I am going to extend 
> this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side opposite 
> to it's country's normal driving side. Is there any interest of using it on 
> countries? If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of use on 
> countries from this tag's documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, 
> this tag could be redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite 
> (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think?
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every 18 months." (Moore's law) "The speed of software halves every 18 months." 
(Gates' law)
 

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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Fernando Trebien <
fernando.treb...@gmail.com> wrote:

> A change of driver
> side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that
> can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side
> changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the
> description of "opposite".
>

I wish this urban legend would die already, because I know of no place on
the planet this is actually true.  If this were actually true, the US
Postal Service would have all of 3 vehicles in their multimillion-vehicle
fleet with the steering wheel on the "legal" side, and an ever growing
population of kei cars imported from Japan registered in Oklahoma would be
"banned" (they are in most states because Japan's domestic vehicles don't
meet crash standards in most states, whereas Oklahoma places a stronger
emphasis on driver ability than vehicle crash-worthiness than most states).
The seating position of the driver is merely a feature of convenience and
largely up to driver preference.  Most drivers prefer left hand drive in
keep-right countries, and right hand drive in keep-left countries because
it greatly increases visibility when overtaking.  Having driven RHS
vehicles in North America, I can safely say it's not impossible, but you
have to really increase your run-up length to pass safely just because of
the sightline when looking to overtake.  Drivers who have to reach for
curbside objects a lot tend to prefer RHS vehicles because they don't have
to step in traffic or reach across the vehicle to, say, collect garbage,
deliver mail, restripe a curb, deliver a package, etc.
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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Fernando Trebien]

We only map the roads because we have an interest in using them,
right? Therefore, we also often map how vehicles are supposed to use
these roads. See: access, oneway, maxspeed, surface, tracktype,
smoothness, height, restriction, etc.

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> Sorry, bad idea. We map the roads, not the vehicles. It is not illegal to
> drive a car with the wheel on the "wrong" side - millions of Europeans do it
> regularly, both on holiday and because certain models of car are only made
> for certain markets. Let's stick to driving_side referring to the side of
> the road.
>
> By the way, when Samoa changed from driving on the right to driving on the
> left a couple of years ago, that was because most of the vehicles were
> imported second-hand from Australia and therefore had the steering wheel on
> the right anyway...
>
> Colin
>
>
>
> On 2014-03-21 21:24, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>
> I wonder what you mean by "Is there any interest of using it on
> countries?". It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as
> you said.
>
> You could simply tag the country with "driving_side=right/left" and
> use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets.
>
> That said, I think driving side also implies "driver side" inside the
> vehicle. Though I find it very unlikely to see this information in use
> one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change of driver
> side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that
> can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side
> changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the
> description of "opposite".
>
> One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier
> between the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a
> separate way with no special change in driving side.
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando Trebien
>  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM, John Packer  wrote:
>
> There is a tag documented on the wiki called driving_side=right/left.
> According to it's description, this tag should only be used on countries,
> and it describes the side of the traffic in the whole country. So far so
> good, but according to taginfo it is used only once on a relation, however
> there are some uses on some ways, and even nodes(?). There are, in my city,
> a couple of streets that have an inverted driving side. So I am going to
> extend this tag's documentation to include ways that have it's driving side
> opposite to it's country's normal driving side. Is there any interest of
> using it on countries? If there is not, I will exclude the possibility of
> use on countries from this tag's documentation. Perhaps, with this new
> definition, this tag could be redefined to have only one value:
> driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any confusion about it's
> use) What do you think? ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
> -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 "The speed of computer chips doubles
> every 18 months." (Moore's law) "The speed of software halves every 18
> months." (Gates' law)
>
>
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



-- 
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+55 (51) 9962-5409

"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)

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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Fernando Trebien]

Read this:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Driver_seating_position
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Right-_and_left-hand_traffic#Restrictions_on_wrong-hand_drive_vehicles

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:04 PM, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 3:24 PM, Fernando Trebien
>  wrote:
>>
>> A change of driver
>> side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that
>> can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side
>> changes, but driver side doesn't. You could include that in the
>> description of "opposite".
>
>
> I wish this urban legend would die already, because I know of no place on
> the planet this is actually true.  If this were actually true, the US Postal
> Service would have all of 3 vehicles in their multimillion-vehicle fleet
> with the steering wheel on the "legal" side, and an ever growing population
> of kei cars imported from Japan registered in Oklahoma would be "banned"
> (they are in most states because Japan's domestic vehicles don't meet crash
> standards in most states, whereas Oklahoma places a stronger emphasis on
> driver ability than vehicle crash-worthiness than most states). The seating
> position of the driver is merely a feature of convenience and largely up to
> driver preference.  Most drivers prefer left hand drive in keep-right
> countries, and right hand drive in keep-left countries because it greatly
> increases visibility when overtaking.  Having driven RHS vehicles in North
> America, I can safely say it's not impossible, but you have to really
> increase your run-up length to pass safely just because of the sightline
> when looking to overtake.  Drivers who have to reach for curbside objects a
> lot tend to prefer RHS vehicles because they don't have to step in traffic
> or reach across the vehicle to, say, collect garbage, deliver mail, restripe
> a curb, deliver a package, etc.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>



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"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)

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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Colin Smale]

 

Agreed, we map roads and attributes of those roads. Sorry, I thought you
were suggesting a tag with the meaning "cars have their steering wheels
on the left|right". 

Colin 

On 2014-03-21 22:06, Fernando Trebien wrote: 

> We only map the roads because we have an interest in using them,
> right? Therefore, we also often map how vehicles are supposed to use
> these roads. See: access, oneway, maxspeed, surface, tracktype,
> smoothness, height, restriction, etc.
> 
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> 
>> Sorry, bad idea. We map the roads, not the vehicles. It is not illegal to 
>> drive a car with the wheel on the "wrong" side - millions of Europeans do it 
>> regularly, both on holiday and because certain models of car are only made 
>> for certain markets. Let's stick to driving_side referring to the side of 
>> the road. By the way, when Samoa changed from driving on the right to 
>> driving on the left a couple of years ago, that was because most of the 
>> vehicles were imported second-hand from Australia and therefore had the 
>> steering wheel on the right anyway... Colin On 2014-03-21 21:24, Fernando 
>> Trebien wrote: I wonder what you mean by "Is there any interest of using it 
>> on countries?". It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as you 
>> said. You could simply tag the country with "driving_side=right/left" and 
>> use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets. That said, I 
>> think driving side also implies "driver side" inside the vehicle. Though I 
>> find it very unlikely to!
  see this
information in use one day, it's best to define this meaning early on. A change 
of driver side requires either a change of vehicle or some special vehicle that 
can drive on both sides. In the case of your city, driving side changes, but 
driver side doesn't. You could include that in the description of "opposite". 
One more thing: this only makes sense if there is no physical barrier between 
the opposite traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a separate way 
with no special change in driving side. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, 
Fernando Trebien  wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 
5:07 PM, John Packer  wrote: There is a tag documented 
on the wiki called driving_side=right/left. According to it's description, this 
tag should only be used on countries, and it describes the side of the traffic 
in the whole country. So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used only 
once on a relation, however there are some uses on so!
 me ways,
and even nodes(?). There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an 
inverted driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to 
include ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal 
driving side. Is there any interest of using it on countries? If there is not, 
I will exclude the possibility of use on countries from this tag's 
documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be redefined 
to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could avoid any 
confusion about it's use) What do you think? 
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every 18 months." (Moore's law) "The speed of software halves every 18 months." 
(Gates' law) ___ Tagging mailing 
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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Fernando Trebien]

No worries! :D

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 6:13 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
> Agreed, we map roads and attributes of those roads. Sorry, I thought you
> were suggesting a tag with the meaning "cars have their steering wheels on
> the left|right".
>
> Colin
>
>
>
> On 2014-03-21 22:06, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>
> We only map the roads because we have an interest in using them,
> right? Therefore, we also often map how vehicles are supposed to use
> these roads. See: access, oneway, maxspeed, surface, tracktype,
> smoothness, height, restriction, etc.
>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:54 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:
>
> Sorry, bad idea. We map the roads, not the vehicles. It is not illegal to
> drive a car with the wheel on the "wrong" side - millions of Europeans do it
> regularly, both on holiday and because certain models of car are only made
> for certain markets. Let's stick to driving_side referring to the side of
> the road. By the way, when Samoa changed from driving on the right to
> driving on the left a couple of years ago, that was because most of the
> vehicles were imported second-hand from Australia and therefore had the
> steering wheel on the right anyway... Colin On 2014-03-21 21:24, Fernando
> Trebien wrote: I wonder what you mean by "Is there any interest of using it
> on countries?". It's been defined for countries, and is used on it, as you
> said. You could simply tag the country with "driving_side=right/left" and
> use the same (but with the opposite value) on those streets. That said, I
> think driving side also implies "driver side" inside the vehicle. Though I
> find it very unlikely to see this information in use one day, it's best to
> define this meaning early on. A change of driver side requires either a
> change of vehicle or some special vehicle that can drive on both sides. In
> the case of your city, driving side changes, but driver side doesn't. You
> could include that in the description of "opposite". One more thing: this
> only makes sense if there is no physical barrier between the opposite
> traffic directions. If there is, then it's just a separate way with no
> special change in driving side. On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:19 PM, Fernando
> Trebien  wrote: On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 5:07 PM,
> John Packer  wrote: There is a tag documented on the
> wiki called driving_side=right/left. According to it's description, this tag
> should only be used on countries, and it describes the side of the traffic
> in the whole country. So far so good, but according to taginfo it is used
> only once on a relation, however there are some uses on some ways, and even
> nodes(?). There are, in my city, a couple of streets that have an inverted
> driving side. So I am going to extend this tag's documentation to include
> ways that have it's driving side opposite to it's country's normal driving
> side. Is there any interest of using it on countries? If there is not, I
> will exclude the possibility of use on countries from this tag's
> documentation. Perhaps, with this new definition, this tag could be
> redefined to have only one value: driving_side=opposite (this way, it could
> avoid any confusion about it's use) What do you think?
> ___ Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
> -- Fernando Trebien +55 (51) 9962-5409 "The speed of computer chips doubles
> every 18 months." (Moore's law) "The speed of software halves every 18
> months." (Gates' law) ___
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-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)

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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 16:04 -0500, Paul Johnson wrote:

> Most drivers prefer left hand drive in keep-right countries, and right
> hand drive in keep-left countries because it greatly increases
> visibility when overtaking.  Having driven RHS vehicles in North
> America, I can safely say it's not impossible, but you have to really
> increase your run-up length to pass safely just because of the
> sightline when looking to overtake.  

Or a lot of faith in the front seat passenger :)

You get other problems too, such as paying tolls. I was shouted at for
getting out of the car to pay put my card in the toll machine on The
Øresundsbron. French Peage staff have never had a problem with that.

Phil (trigpoint)





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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Paul Johnson]

On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> You get other problems too, such as paying tolls. I was shouted at for
> getting out of the car to pay put my card in the toll machine on The
> Øresundsbron. French Peage staff have never had a problem with that.
>

This seems to be an issue for the kei car drivers here on the plains,
especially since the OTA won't issue kei cars a PIKEPASS, as they're not
even supposed to be on the Turnpikes to start with (though this restriction
is largely ignored by both the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and tollmasters
alike because these vehicles are capable of the speed and tend to be more
stable at those speeds than, say, a smart forTwo, which somehow manages to
avoid Oklahoma's kei class).
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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Volker Schmidt]

I did not know that this tag exists. Funny, but but there is a street her
in Padova, Italy, where this tag could be used instead of the two separate
roads used at the moment:
http://goo.gl/maps/EZJVI



On 21 March 2014 22:29, Paul Johnson  wrote:

>
> On Fri, Mar 21, 2014 at 4:15 PM, Philip Barnes wrote:
>
>> You get other problems too, such as paying tolls. I was shouted at for
>> getting out of the car to pay put my card in the toll machine on The
>> Øresundsbron. French Peage staff have never had a problem with that.
>>
>
> This seems to be an issue for the kei car drivers here on the plains,
> especially since the OTA won't issue kei cars a PIKEPASS, as they're not
> even supposed to be on the Turnpikes to start with (though this restriction
> is largely ignored by both the Oklahoma Highway Patrol and tollmasters
> alike because these vehicles are capable of the speed and tend to be more
> stable at those speeds than, say, a smart forTwo, which somehow manages to
> avoid Oklahoma's kei class).
>
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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 23:13 +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> I did not know that this tag exists. Funny, but but there is a street
> her in Padova, Italy, where this tag could be used instead of the two
> separate roads used at the moment:
> http://goo.gl/maps/EZJVI
> 
That looks scarey, minimal signage and surely are there are problems
with drivers getting dazzled by oncoming headlights?

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Tagging] Driving side

[Volker Schmidt]

It's in town, it's not a real problem. Italians are flexible :-)



On 21 March 2014 23:22, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Fri, 2014-03-21 at 23:13 +0100, Volker Schmidt wrote:
> > I did not know that this tag exists. Funny, but but there is a street
> > her in Padova, Italy, where this tag could be used instead of the two
> > separate roads used at the moment:
> > http://goo.gl/maps/EZJVI
> >
> That looks scarey, minimal signage and surely are there are problems
> with drivers getting dazzled by oncoming headlights?
>
> Phil (trigpoint)
>
>
>
>
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