[Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[Fernando Trebien]

Hello everyone,

I've been interested in proposing a change to Carto's style (Mapnik's main
style) to allow visual identification of unpaved roads for any kind of
road, much like the Humanitarian style does, which bases this decision on
values of the surface tag. The Brazilian community has shown interest on
this many times, since lack of this feature causes unaware users to
classify roads incorrectly. David Bannon proposes (below) that we use the
tracktype tag for that instead, but I've never seen it being used for
anything besides roads with highway=track (therefore, not a very common
practice it seems). Do you think we should encourage its use in conjunction
with unclassified, tertiary, secondary and primary highways?

It seems to me that surface=compacted is quite similar in meaning to
tracktype=grade1 (whereas surface=sand, surface=dirt, and others, could be
equated with other grades but rarely with grade1, particularly because the
"compacted" value exists) and so both tags could be used for the same
rendering purpose. Do you agree?

I've seen people from different countries requesting different things on
this topic: some would consider even a sett street "unpaved" (therefore,
requiring special rendering), but it seems that a "compacted unpaved" road
is the limit with which few would disagree. Finding the right universal
threshold (if there is only one) is still pretty much debatable, so
opinions are appreciated.

-- Forwarded message --
From: davidbannon 
Date: Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 4:02 AM
Subject: Re: [openstreetmap-carto] Render paved/unpaved (#110)
To: gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto 
Cc: ftrebien 


I am not sure the tag surface= is the right one here. It has a lot of
possible values, and a lot of them in use. We'd need a look up table to
decide what to do. Better, in my humble opinion to use the tracktype= tag.
This tag is intended to show what state the road is likely to be in and
thats the information a user really needs. Further, this tag is very widely
used.

The Australian Tagging Guidelines on OSM discusses this (
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Australian_Tagging_Guidelines#Unsealed_and_4wd_Roads_.28Dirt.2C_Gravel.2C_Formed.2C_etc.29)
and believes that any road with tracktype= asserted needs to be shown
so
people are aware its not a sealed road.

Please remember that highway= type tags should show what a road is is
intended for, further information is needed if the surface of that road is
not what might be expected ! This is particularly important in places like
the Australian Outback where long distances are involved. Many people have
died as a result of them underestimating their ability to use a particular
road. I don't want to see OSM mentioned in a coroners report.

David

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Reply to this email directly or view it on
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-- 
Fernando Trebien
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"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[Richard Welty]

On 12/31/13 11:10 AM, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>
> I've been interested in proposing a change to Carto's style (Mapnik's
> main style) to allow visual identification of unpaved roads for any
> kind of road, much like the Humanitarian style does, which bases this
> decision on values of the surface tag. The Brazilian community has
> shown interest on this many times, since lack of this feature causes
> unaware users to classify roads incorrectly. David Bannon proposes
> (below) that we use the tracktype tag for that instead, but I've never
> seen it being used for anything besides roads with highway=track
> (therefore, not a very common practice it seems). Do you think we
> should encourage its use in conjunction with unclassified, tertiary,
> secondary and primary highways?
>
i've been known to use tracktype with highways other than tracks,
generally in
conjunction with setting surface=(gravel,dirt, etc.) there are rural
parts of
the US where such classification seems appropriate to me. i'm not sure
if it's
still true, but back in the 70s Vermont had state highways surfaced with
gravel.

tracktype works well for this; if it's not common usage now, maybe the
wiki should be tweaked to suggest such usage.
> It seems to me that surface=compacted is quite similar in meaning to
> tracktype=grade1 (whereas surface=sand, surface=dirt, and others,
> could be equated with other grades but rarely with grade1,
> particularly because the "compacted" value exists) and so both tags
> could be used for the same rendering purpose. Do you agree?
>
i frequently use

highway=unclassified
tracktype=grade1
surface=gravel

in cases where the road is well maintained and able to support traffic.
many, many farm roads in the midwestern US meet this description;
they don't particularly need to be paved, but they do need to support
heavy farm equipment moving from field to field.

richard



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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[Volker Schmidt]

Two notes:
1) I see tracktype used in Italy on highways other than track and have don
so myself. Happens for roads that are classified form their traffic
importance different from track, but which are physically similar to track
and threfore can be classified by tracktype
2) In Germany, Austria, northern Italy, many tracks (agriculture/forestry
roads) are tarmacked and usually tagged tracktype=grade1; surface=asphalt



On 31 December 2013 17:45, Richard Welty  wrote:

>  On 12/31/13 11:10 AM, Fernando Trebien wrote:
>
>
>  I've been interested in proposing a change to Carto's style (Mapnik's
> main style) to allow visual identification of unpaved roads for any kind of
> road, much like the Humanitarian style does, which bases this decision on
> values of the surface tag. The Brazilian community has shown interest on
> this many times, since lack of this feature causes unaware users to
> classify roads incorrectly. David Bannon proposes (below) that we use the
> tracktype tag for that instead, but I've never seen it being used for
> anything besides roads with highway=track (therefore, not a very common
> practice it seems). Do you think we should encourage its use in conjunction
> with unclassified, tertiary, secondary and primary highways?
>
>   i've been known to use tracktype with highways other than tracks,
> generally in
> conjunction with setting surface=(gravel,dirt, etc.) there are rural parts
> of
> the US where such classification seems appropriate to me. i'm not sure if
> it's
> still true, but back in the 70s Vermont had state highways surfaced with
> gravel.
>
> tracktype works well for this; if it's not common usage now, maybe the
> wiki should be tweaked to suggest such usage.
>
>  It seems to me that surface=compacted is quite similar in meaning to
> tracktype=grade1 (whereas surface=sand, surface=dirt, and others, could be
> equated with other grades but rarely with grade1, particularly because the
> "compacted" value exists) and so both tags could be used for the same
> rendering purpose. Do you agree?
>
>   i frequently use
>
> highway=unclassified
> tracktype=grade1
> surface=gravel
>
> in cases where the road is well maintained and able to support traffic.
> many, many farm roads in the midwestern US meet this description;
> they don't particularly need to be paved, but they do need to support
> heavy farm equipment moving from field to field.
>
> richard
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[malenki]

Am Tue, 31 Dec 2013 14:10:33 -0200
schrieb Fernando Trebien :

> [rendering unpaved roads]
> The Brazilian community has shown interest on this many times,
> since lack of this feature causes unaware users to classify roads
> incorrectly. 

There are a lot of countries which would have an advantage of such a
style.

> David Bannon proposes (below) that we use the tracktype
> tag for that instead, but I've never seen it being used for anything
> besides roads with highway=track (therefore, not a very common
> practice it seems). 

Some examples have been mentioned in the other replies; I would like to
add the 
* Baltic States (which have big woods with tiny settlements
  sprinkled in them being connected with unpaved roads)
* Poland with some regions alike the above mentioned
* Albania which is still struggling to pave its major roads, not to
  mention the minor ones. An example is the SH4¹ which was unpaved in
  big parts back in 2011 but well travelled. It is a primary highway
  with tendency to motorway
* Australia is already mentioned in the mail you forward and I assume
  that in
* Africa a lot of roads are similar 

> Do you think we should encourage its use in
> conjunction with unclassified, tertiary, secondary and primary
> highways?

yes

> It seems to me that surface=compacted is quite similar in meaning to
> tracktype=grade1 (whereas surface=sand, surface=dirt, and others,
> could be equated with other grades but rarely with grade1,
> particularly because the "compacted" value exists) and so both tags
> could be used for the same rendering purpose. Do you agree?

I wouldn't connect surface=compacted and tracktype=grade1 per default
since compacted roads and and roads with really paved surface (asphalt
or cobblestones) are not unlikely to show a very different driving
experience after some good rain.
Of course this also depends on your definition of "compacted". :)

For rendering a map displaying highway quality beside their
classification I'd consider useful not only the tags
* surface and
* tracktype 
but also
* 4wd_only (maybe mentioned at the Australian Tagging Guidelines)
* ford= 
and some thoughts on roads in dry riverbeds. So far I mapped them with
ford=yes. Iirc there have been discussions about this topic but at
the moment I don't have time to research them.
Once I also used ride_height=[value] because one road I walked would
have required a car with about 40 cm ground clearance to pass it.

looking forward to that enhanced rendering style,
Thomas

¹ http://www.malenki.ch/Touren/11/Galerie/Tag_22/slide_34.html
( contains exif tags with valid geotagging)

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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 31 December 2013 21:27, malenki  wrote:
> looking forward to that enhanced rendering style,

What would be the most suitable rendering? Perhaps similar to the
normal rendering, but with a dashed outline (casing)?

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[Fernando Trebien]

I was thinking of a colour change (like the Humanitarian style does), but a
dashed outline would be just fine for me. After deciding which tags should
be used, I think I'd leave the aesthetic decision to people in the "design"
list or (perhaps better) to Carto's developers (I don't know who made
Carto's style but I've heard a professional cartographer was hired for
that).


On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 8:15 PM, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:

> On 31 December 2013 21:27, malenki  wrote:
> > looking forward to that enhanced rendering style,
>
> What would be the most suitable rendering? Perhaps similar to the
> normal rendering, but with a dashed outline (casing)?
>
> -- Matthijs
>
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"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[Fernando Trebien]

On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 7:27 PM, malenki  wrote:

> I wouldn't connect surface=compacted and tracktype=grade1 per default
> since compacted roads and and roads with really paved surface (asphalt
> or cobblestones) are not unlikely to show a very different driving
> experience after some good rain.
> Of course this also depends on your definition of "compacted". :)
>

This is an important point where it gets tricky to reach "global"
agreement. As a driver here in Brazil (and having driven abroad only in the
US, even though I've been using public transportation in other countries
too), my experience tells me that even a sett road has different
characteristics after rain. Sett becomes slippery and, thus, less safe
(even in sunny conditions it may be less preferable to some people). Any
unpaved road (compacted or not, but mostly not compacted ones) will not
only make your car dirtier but may increase the chance of bogging and it is
perhaps even less safe than wet sett streets. Exactly when these things
become relevant as to deserve different rendering is somewhat subjective.
My personal perception is that the largest difference appears when going
from paved to unpaved (thus, including "compacted" on the "unpaved" side);
the Brazilian community seems to disagree and includes "compacted" on the
"paved"-like side (mostly because many regions in Brazil have almost solely
unpaved roads). One possible solution is voting on various possible
thresholds and sticking with a single style change (my current aim, as I
think this is the fastest way to get results). In case of too much
disagreement, another solution is introducing various different rendering
styles for each of these situations (much like Carto's many rendering
styles of highway=track according to trackgrade; this could affect only
outlines of the ways). Other solutions may fall in between these two.

-- 
Fernando Trebien
+55 (51) 9962-5409

"The speed of computer chips doubles every 18 months." (Moore's law)
"The speed of software halves every 18 months." (Gates' law)
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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[John F. Eldredge]

On 12/31/2013 04:54 PM, Fernando Trebien wrote:
On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 7:27 PM, malenki > wrote:


I wouldn't connect surface=compacted and tracktype=grade1 per default
since compacted roads and and roads with really paved surface (asphalt
or cobblestones) are not unlikely to show a very different driving
experience after some good rain.
Of course this also depends on your definition of "compacted". :)


This is an important point where it gets tricky to reach "global" 
agreement. As a driver here in Brazil (and having driven abroad only 
in the US, even though I've been using public transportation in other 
countries too), my experience tells me that even a sett road has 
different characteristics after rain. Sett becomes slippery and, thus, 
less safe (even in sunny conditions it may be less preferable to some 
people). Any unpaved road (compacted or not, but mostly not compacted 
ones) will not only make your car dirtier but may increase the chance 
of bogging and it is perhaps even less safe than wet sett streets. 
Exactly when these things become relevant as to deserve different 
rendering is somewhat subjective. My personal perception is that the 
largest difference appears when going from paved to unpaved (thus, 
including "compacted" on the "unpaved" side); the Brazilian community 
seems to disagree and includes "compacted" on the "paved"-like side 
(mostly because many regions in Brazil have almost solely unpaved 
roads). One possible solution is voting on various possible thresholds 
and sticking with a single style change (my current aim, as I think 
this is the fastest way to get results). In case of too much 
disagreement, another solution is introducing various different 
rendering styles for each of these situations (much like Carto's many 
rendering styles of highway=track according to trackgrade; this could 
affect only outlines of the ways). Other solutions may fall in between 
these two.


Even with a compacted dirt road, how usable it is after a rain can vary 
according to the soil type, the terrain, and how long it has been 
raining.  My experience on clay soil suggests that, if the water can 
drain off quickly, the road will be slippery but not too soft.  If the 
water is able to pool and soak in, you can end up with a morass that 
won't be passable until much later.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that.
Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that."
Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr.

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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[Richard Welty]

On 12/31/13 5:54 PM, Fernando Trebien wrote:
> On Tue, Dec 31, 2013 at 7:27 PM, malenki  > wrote:
>
> I wouldn't connect surface=compacted and tracktype=grade1 per default
> since compacted roads and and roads with really paved surface (asphalt
> or cobblestones) are not unlikely to show a very different driving
> experience after some good rain.
> Of course this also depends on your definition of "compacted". :)
>
>
> This is an important point where it gets tricky to reach "global"
> agreement.
properly, we should be talking about a consistent tagging scheme that
accurately describes the road surface. the rendering isn't the business of
the tagging group. we just need to produce tagging that is clear,
consistent, and reasonably complete. it seems to me that a simple edit
to the wiki extending tracktype=grade? across road classifications
other than track accomplishes most of what we want here, along with
encouraging use of the surface tag in an appropriate manner.
attempting to somehow relate surface= to specific tracktypes seems
like a bad deal to me; i've seen gravel roads that were grade1, and
gravel roads that were way, way worse than grade1.

there are reasons why there may need to be custom rendering stylesheets
for different parts of the world. it may be as simple as local taste,
but there
can be other issues - the new highway shield rendering for the US is really
nice, but may not make it into the main Carto style sheet, so there's a
chance the highway shields will get rolled out in an openstreetmap.us style.

richard



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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 31 December 2013 22:27, Fernando Trebien  wrote:
> I was thinking of a colour change (like the Humanitarian style does), but a
> dashed outline would be just fine for me. After deciding which tags should
> be used, I think I'd leave the aesthetic decision to people in the "design"
> list or (perhaps better) to Carto's developers (I don't know who made
> Carto's style but I've heard a professional cartographer was hired for
> that).

The Carto style is maintained by Andy Allan aka gravitystorm:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto. The Carto design
is basically a direct copy of the older Mapnik XML design, of which I
don't know who wrote it. Apart from Andy, many people, including me,
have contributed to the Carto style. I have worked on the rendering of
roads, so if you like, I can help you in writing up the change. Just
keep in mind I don't know anything about cartography or design either,
I'm just good at typing out other peoples' ideas in a machine-readable
form :).

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[malenki]

Am Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:15:10 +
schrieb Matthijs Melissen :

> On 31 December 2013 21:27, malenki  wrote:
> > looking forward to that enhanced rendering style,
> 
> What would be the most suitable rendering? Perhaps similar to the
> normal rendering, but with a dashed outline (casing)?

As I had vague thoughts about probably maybe setting up an own "bad
road map" I thought of the default OSM style plus different sized
grain on the colored part of the road (if this description is too
unclear I can make a sketch-up after I had some sleep) plus a red line
at the side for 4wd_only=yes and a blue line for highways in riverbeds.

But like some other people I am no cartographer. My biggest part 

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Re: [Tagging] Tags useful for rendering of roads in poor conditions

[malenki]

Am Tue, 31 Dec 2013 22:15:10 +
schrieb Matthijs Melissen :

[... (darn fat fingers and crazy working hours)]
My biggest contribution to OSM is adding and checking data

gn8
Thomas

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