Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: gambling

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/9/28 Matthijs Melissen 

> There are currently various tags for gambling-related shops and amenities
> in use, including amenity=casino, shop=bookmaker, shop=betting,
> shop=lottery, and shop=gambling. See here for an overview of usage
> statistics:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/gambling.
>
> As shops and amenities for gambling are already widely used, we should aim
> to stay as close to the current way of tagging as possible when writing a
> proposal. However, the usage statistics to which I linked show some issues
> with the current way of tagging, which would be good to resolve. These
> issues include the following.
>


there is also a (smaller) number of leisure=gambling and leisure=casino.

cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: gambling

[Colin Smale]

I would recommend making a clear distinction between the premises and the 
activity. Lotteries are rarely carried out in shops, but the tickets are sold 
in all manner of establishments with a different primary purpose. And whether 
you can ever call gambling an amenity (for the public good) is open to 
discussion as far as I am concerned.
Colin

Matthijs Melissen  wrote:
>Dear all,
>
>There are currently various tags for gambling-related shops and
>amenities
>in use, including amenity=casino, shop=bookmaker, shop=betting,
>shop=lottery, and shop=gambling. See here for an overview of usage
>statistics:
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Proposed_features/gambling
>.
>
>As shops and amenities for gambling are already widely used, we should
>aim
>to stay as close to the current way of tagging as possible when writing
>a
>proposal. However, the usage statistics to which I linked show some
>issues
>with the current way of tagging, which would be good to resolve. These
>issues include the following.
>
>- The current tagging contains some ambiguous tags. For example,
>amenity=gambling is used for both bookmakers and casinos.
>- Some real-world objects are tagged in (many) different ways. For
>example,
>bookmakers are tagged as shop=bookmaker, shop=betting, and (less
>frequently) amenity=gambling. Lotteries are tagged in many different
>ways
>as well.
>
>Data consumers (and end-users as a consequence) would benefit if these
>issues were resolved. Fixing current tagging will probably be
>difficult,
>but more guidance in the form of well-documented tags might help
>prevent
>these issues at least for future tagging.
>
>In order to create clearer documentation for future mappers and resolve
>ambiguities, I am interested in the opinion of the community on the
>following questions.
>
>1. Should we map all gambling-related places in a single way, for
>example
>as amenity=gambling and then specify with gambling=*-tags, or should we
>keep different tags for different kind of gambling places?
>
>2. If we want to use different tags for different kind of gambling
>places,
>which types of gambling places should we distinguish? For example:
>- Should we distinguish bookmakers and lotteries? Note that some places
>combine sports betting with traditional lotteries.
>- Should we distinguish casinos (with croupiers) and 'playing halls'
>(or
>whatever they are called) without croupiers?
>
>With kind regards,
>Matthijs Melissen
>
>
>
>
>___
>Tagging mailing list
>Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: gambling

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2013/9/28 Colin Smale 

> I would recommend making a clear distinction between the premises and the
> activity. Lotteries are rarely carried out in shops, but the tickets are
> sold in all manner of establishments with a different primary purpose. And
> whether you can ever call gambling an amenity (for the public good) is open
> to discussion as far as I am concerned.





+1, in Italy (and probably in other places as well) there are for instance
the (in)famous bingo halls, I wouldn't suggest to tag them the same as a
formal casino with dress code, roulette, etc. like the ones in MonteCarlo.
There are also in many countries these establishments with (mostly) slot
machines (similar to arcade halls), there are shops allowing to participate
in (mostly national) lotteries (often tobacco shops, indeed I'd use an
attribute for these, because there are hardly "lottery-only" shops AFAIK),
betting places (e.g. bet and win), bookmakers, ...

IMHO all of these merit a distinct tag.

cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: gambling

[Philip Barnes]

On Sat, 2013-09-28 at 10:29 +0200, Colin Smale wrote:
> I would recommend making a clear distinction between the premises and
> the activity. Lotteries are rarely carried out in shops, but the
> tickets are sold in all manner of establishments with a different
> primary purpose. And whether you can ever call gambling an amenity
> (for the public good) is open to discussion as far as I am concerned.
> Colin

+1

In the UK lottery tickets are mostly sold in shops, newsagents,
supermarkets, convienience shops. The lottery is not their main
activity, so a sub-tag such as lottery=yes may be the way to go.

Places with slot machines are called amusement arcades in the UK, mainly
found at the seaside, there is usually at least one in any large town.

Bookmakers/betting shop I think these are the same thing. A bookmaker is
a person, and most of the national chains sell odds that are set by the
companies team of bookmakers. In this case I think bookmaker is fine as
the people in the shop will be able to put you in touch with a bookmaker
if you want to make a bet that is not already on the books, such as you
may want to bet that osm will be the biggest online map in 5 years time.
After the previous discussion I did look at the signage on some
bookmakers, coral/ladbrooks and beyond the name it says nothing about
what it does. The word betting, or bookmaker are just not there.  

Bookmakers in the UK don't sell lottery tickets, it may be possible to
bet on other countries lotteries, betting on the Irish lottery is a big
thing, but that is not the same as taking part in the lottery and should
not warrant a lottery tag.

There are bingo halls, which are a different thing, and need a separate
tag.

Casinos where there are croupiers and roulette tables. Some casinos are
operated by the large bookmaker chains, which explains the tags we
already have.

You often find a slot machine in pubs and other places, I can remember
them being in fish and chip shops, but can't say I have seen one for a
while so maybe there has been a law change to keep them in licensed
premises where age restrictions are better controlled.

Phil (trigpoint)


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Hiking route abandoned

[bredy]

I have one hiking route with relation that was abandoned by the operator. Now
do I have to cancell the relation or for the moment is better to tag
abandoned:ref= and abandoned:operator= in the relation?
Thanks



--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Hiking-route-abandoned-tp5779272.html
Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - (Bridge types)

[Christopher Hoess]

Dave,

I'm officially agnostic on that question! I know both "tunnel=culvert" and
"culvert=yes" are used much more frequently in OSM than "bridge=culvert"; I
think one of them predominates, but I don't know which.

Yours,

-- 
Chris Hoess


On Mon, Sep 23, 2013 at 11:33 PM, Dave Swarthout wrote:

> Hi Chris,
>
> I have been following this thread for a few days and have one question
> although it might be too late to ask it. Do you want to drop the tag
> "culvert" in favor of "tunnel" altogether? I see from the discussion that
> some people prefer "tunnel=culvert" in the cases where I have used
> "culvert=yes" and "layer=-1".
>
> I have done some mapping in Alaska and there are many, many culverts in
> use as drainage ditches, etc., all over the state. To call a culvert, which
> is usually a heavy, corrugated, galvanized metal pipe from 1 to 6 feet in
> diameter, a tunnel is a bit of a stretch IMO. I can live with the change
> but wanted to pass along my thoughts to you.
>
> Thanks,
>
> Dave Swarthout
> "AlaskaDave"
>
>
>
>
> On Sun, Sep 22, 2013 at 11:02 PM, Christopher Hoess wrote:
>
>> Greetings,
>>
>> I've just been over the bridge types proposal <
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Bridge_types> which
>> I brought to the list twice earlier this year. I think the bugs have been
>> pretty well ironed out, and further changes would largely be a matter of
>> taste, so I bring it to you for voting.
>>
>> Summary points since the last discussion:
>> The "bridge_type" key has been changed to the more appropriate
>> "bridge:structure". The installed base of "bridge_type" is relatively small
>> (547 objects), so this shouldn't be a big deal. Typology will stay in
>> "bridge" for simplicity.
>> I decided to keep the "bridge=movable"; "bridge:movable=..." tagging
>> scheme. I think the complexity of the movable bridge types, plus the fact
>> that the average person may not know how to distinguish them, makes a
>> two-tiered hierarchy reasonable here.
>> I dropped "culvert", since our accepted practice seems to use that to tag
>> a tunnel on the lower way at such crossings.
>>
>> I know I can't please everyone in every point, but I think your input has
>> made this a very sound proposal with plenty of room for future extension.
>> Thanks for your consideration.
>>
>> Yours gratefully,
>>
>> --
>> Chris Hoess
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Dave Swarthout
> Homer, Alaska
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - via_ferrata

[bredy]

Who decided the start of voting? Is just 2 yaers without no discussion.
The feature is good for alpin tagging.

If none that write the proposal are present I try to restart the process.



--
View this message in context: 
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Feature-Proposal-RFC-via-ferrata-tp5776186p5779281.html
Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Hiking route abandoned

[André Pirard]

On 2013-09-28 14:09, bredy wrote :
> I have one hiking route with relation that was abandoned by the operator. Now
> do I have to cancell the relation or for the moment is better to tag
> abandoned:ref= and abandoned:operator= in the relation?
> Thanks
It probably depends on its popularity, on the number of persons using it
yet.
Usually on hiking sites, participants can vote their appreciation.

Va bene,

André.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Pre-proposal: gambling

[Gilbert Hersschens]

In Belgium we have
- Casino (as in most other countries)
- Slot machines and other gambling equipment in pubs
- Gambling arcades a.k.a. amusement arcades with slot machines
- Permanent betting offices for betting on horse races, soccer games etc..
- Occasional betting offices typically on horse race tracks. They are only
open when a race takes place.
- shops where lottery ticked are sold: convenience stores, newspaper shops,
etc.
Personally I would tag
Casinos and Gambling arcades as amenity or leisure,
the permanent betting office as shop,
the temporary betting office either as shop with a sub-tag defining opening
hours or at least specifying the temporary nature or add a sub-tag
betting=yes to the race track object
and for the newspaper shop I would use a sub-tag like betting=yes and/or
lottery=yes.

Gilbert
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Visual editor for the wiki (WAS: How to overcome lack of consensus)

[André Pirard]

On 2013-09-27 13:51, André Pirard wrote :
> On 2013-09-17 21:49, Rob Nickerson wrote :
>>
>> Daniel wrote:
>> > - Make it easier to edit the wiki. 
>>
>> Hi Daniel,
>>
>> I agree - the wiki can be hard to edit if you have never done this
>> before. This is why I requested a visual editor (that is now used by
>> Wikipedia) to be added. Unfortunately this requires an update to the
>> version of MediaWiki that we use so is not a simple case of
>> installing a plug-in. Hopefully it will be picked up sooner rather
>> than later but in a volunteer based project patience is essential :-)
> I tried that editor and it's really not worth it. It's not available
> on en.wikipedia (shame?) but only as beta testing for other
> languages.  It looks like a very basic, unhandy rich text editor (e.g.
> no drag and drop), with absolutely no possibility to edit markup (e.g.
> our ubiquitous {{tag ...}} and with restrictions due to web programming.
> But if you're really fond of such editing, you may copy an OSM page
> code, paste it to Wikipedia, edit it there, and copy&paste it back to OSM.
> I personally don't believe much in Web editors, including e-mail. 
> That should run on a PC.
> I'm editing HTML with Kompozer which is not extraordinarily more
> complex that a basic editor, but it's more than complete and handy.
> If Kompozer does not know some markup, you just pull the curtain, edit
> the code and come back to the visual display and editor.
> The boon is that the server's files are mapped (mounted) in my Ubuntu
> filesystem, as if the server was on my PC, just like editing local files.
I recalled that, "in the old days, when we were young
,"
[About Ubuntu ,
Nelson Mandela, hi, almost killed by the anti-social networks] I noticed
that MS Word seemed to be a engine capable of editing different kinds of
markups natively, notably also HTML (foolishly the basic HTML I spoke of
;-) ), probably based on a markup definition file.
Hence, I searched the Web
, and I found
that LibreOffice can save Wiki files directly, and Word indirectly
.

One might find the way to add {{tag... }} and a few of our beloved
markups for a real experience.
I'd love to hear feedback from such experiments (sorry no time myself).
I'm a believer that many things we write on mailing lists should [also]
be written on the wiki.

I forgot to say above that a Wiki file space can also be more
conveniently mounted on the local filesystem.
At least, I tested Wikipedia on Ubuntu (operating system
, of course), that I would recommend for that
kind of things.
Windowers shouldn't fear a complete shake up:  Ubuntu can be installed
on (after) VirtualBox
 on Windows for a
lifetime, nondestructive, free trial period. Same for Macintosh (or...
any Linux system).
Only gotcha, I think: recent Ubuntu comes with a desktop called Unity
which is very resource consuming, dancing but not singing, and is really
crawling on VB. There are solutions to tame Unity
, but you
may prefer to install a more classic desktop like gnome session fallback

or, even closer to classic Ubuntu and better IMHO, MATE
, and choose it as your desktop before login.

Cheers,

André.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] mapping qanats

[Janko Mihelić]

2013/9/28 Michał Sałaban 

>
> I realized it is not easy to make a distinction between canal and
> aqueduct, but we may assume that the latter is usually for drinking
> water or irrigation of small areas of land. Everything dealing with
> navigation, flood protection or vast area irrigation would be rather a
> canal.
>

Yes, it's a fuzzier distinction than I thought. After a bit of reading i
guess an aqueduct is any man made structure that carries water, for
whatever purpose, even navigating boats. So canal is a type of aqueduct.

I like waterway=aqueduct. If it's on a bridge, bridge=yes, if it is on a
wall, barrier=wall. Quanat gets a tunnel=yes, and aqueduct=quanat. For the
holes maybe something like man_made=shaft?

Janko
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Visual editor for the wiki (WAS: How to overcome lack of consensus)

[André Pirard]

Ouch, from LibreOffice menu and help, it looks like it's only able to
store a wiki file, not to read and edit it.
Pretty much useless.

André.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Visual editor for the wiki (WAS: How to overcome lack of consensus)

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 12:38 PM, André Pirard wrote:

> Only gotcha, I think: recent Ubuntu comes with a desktop called Unity
> which is very resource consuming, dancing but not singing, and is really
> crawling on VB. There are solutions to tame 
> Unity,
> but you may prefer to install a more classic desktop like gnome session
> fallbackor,
>  even closer to classic Ubuntu and better IMHO,
> MATE , and choose it as your desktop before
> login.
>

Try XFCE for a lightweight windows manager. I've been using it since gnome3
appeared.


-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Visual editor for the wiki (WAS: How to overcome lack of consensus)

[Clifford Snow]

On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 2:56 PM, André Pirard wrote:

> Ouch, from LibreOffice menu and help, it looks like it's only able to
> store a wiki file, not to read and edit it.
> Pretty much useless.
>

Not sure - on my version of LibreOffice, I can connect to
wiki.openoffice.org with my userid and password. There is an option to send
to the wiki (File->Send->WikiMedia). Not sure how to connect to the wiki to
import a page. Creating a new page might be an option.

I wonder if anyone actually uses LibreOffice for wiki pages. Learning wiki
markdown takes a while. I can certainly see the desire to have a visual
editor. A visual editor could lower the bar for contributions.
http://de.slideshare.net/manuelaschmidt1/poster-dresden-icc has some
interesting statistics on why only a small portion of new users contribute.
The number one reason for not mapping is it is too time consuming. Not
exactly the same as editing the wiki and the sample size was small,but I
think it is safe to assume that people may not want to learn another editor
to contribute .

And in another light, I'm afraid to think of what that says about all of us!

-- 
Clifford

OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Visual editor for the wiki (WAS: How to overcome lack of consensus)

[André Pirard]

On 2013-09-29 00:50, Clifford Snow wrote :
>
> On Sat, Sep 28, 2013 at 12:38 PM, André Pirard
> mailto:a.pirard.pa...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Only gotcha, I think: recent Ubuntu comes with a desktop called
> Unity which is very resource consuming, dancing but not singing,
> and is really crawling on VB. There are solutions to tame Unity
> ,
> but you may prefer to install a more classic desktop like gnome
> session fallback
> 
> 
> or, even closer to classic Ubuntu and better IMHO, MATE
> , and choose it as your desktop before
> login.
>
>
> Try XFCE for a lightweight windows manager. I've been using it since
> gnome3 appeared.
Yes, I know XFCE, Clifford, it runs a few apps in 384 MB.
Both Gnome3 and MATE run fine on any decent machine (MATE is a mix of
Gnome2 + criticized Gnome3).
The only problem is starting Ubuntu the first time with crawling sole
Unity under VirtualBox.
Once you've managed to install one of these and use it, you're off.

André.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging