Re: [Tagging] traffic=fast

[Richard Mann]

There's two things that distinguish HSLs/LGVs/NBSs: high maxspeed
(typically 250-320, though some would include the new lines in Switzerland,
which are "only" 200), and a lack of slow traffic (freight, stopping
passenger services) because they have alternative routes.

In some cases, you can get pretty high speeds without providing a second
pair of lines, if traffic is sparse (upto 200kmh in the UK, upto 230kmh in
Germany), so I think the presence/absence of a parallel slow route is
something that can usefully tagged explicitly.
Richard


On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:21 AM, St Niklaas  wrote:

>  Hi taggers,
>
> Colins question are there more countries with different speed rules
> on tracks ? Yes all the TGV like tracks in Europe through, France, Germany
> and Netherlands are specially build for TGVs but somewhere there still
> tracks combined, limited speed up to 100 miles / hr.
>
> Hendrik
>
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Re: [Tagging] Advice & clarification of the railway tracks=* tag required.

[Dave F.]

On 09/08/2012 00:03, Richard Mann wrote:
I've copied the info to a new passenger_lines tag, since it would 
appear that some people would prefer to use the tracks tag for a 
different purpose.


No, All users except you, for the reason it was created which is clearly 
defined in the wiki.


For those of you who don't have experience of train operations, I can 
assure you that the number of tracks available for passenger 
operations (and in particular, whether services can be readily 
timetabled to operate with limited stops due to the absence of slow 
traffic on some lines) is pretty useful info.


That wasn't the reason I contacted you. It's disappointing you attempted 
to high-jack an already established tag with something that even you 
seem unclear about.


Dave F.

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Re: [Tagging] Advice & clarification of the railway tracks=* tag required.

[Dave F.]

On 09/08/2012 00:03, Richard Mann wrote:
I've copied the info to a new passenger_lines tag, since it would 
appear that some people would prefer to use the tracks tag for a 
different purpose.


Disappointing that you didn't rescind your track edits first

Dave F.

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Re: [Tagging] Advice & clarification of the railway tracks=* tag required.

[Pieren]

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Dave F.  wrote:

> Disappointing that you didn't rescind your track edits first

Then do it. The current tagging of your example with "tracks=4" is simply wrong.

Pieren

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Re: [Tagging] traffic=fast

[Colin Smale]

As every track segment has a maximum speed, why not just apply the 
existing maxspeed=* tag to the tracks? It is not clear to me whether 
your intention with traffic=fast refers to some attribute of the track 
itself, or the use to which it is put. Is it some "official" designation 
(from Network Rail)? I recall also seeing things like service=main_line 
(from memory) to distinguish main line from local tracks.


Colin

On 09/08/2012 11:33, Richard Mann wrote:
There's two things that distinguish HSLs/LGVs/NBSs: high maxspeed 
(typically 250-320, though some would include the new lines in 
Switzerland, which are "only" 200), and a lack of slow traffic 
(freight, stopping passenger services) because they have alternative 
routes.
In some cases, you can get pretty high speeds without providing a 
second pair of lines, if traffic is sparse (upto 200kmh in the UK, 
upto 230kmh in Germany), so I think the presence/absence of a parallel 
slow route is something that can usefully tagged explicitly.

Richard

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:21 AM, St Niklaas > wrote:


Hi taggers,

Colins question are there more countries with different speed
rules on tracks ? Yes all the TGV like tracks in Europe through,
France, Germany and Netherlands are specially build for TGVs but
somewhere there still tracks combined, limited speed up to 100
miles / hr.

Hendrik

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[Tagging] Everybody is hiding?

[Eckhart Wörner]

Hi tagging list,

the Extended Conditions proposal has been shot down by a majority, and 
therefore there is still no "official" way of tagging quite a lot of things. 
(As a side note, the Extended Conditions proposal is still the de facto 
standard.)

Therefore, I expected that those people who had voted against the proposal came 
up with a well-designed alternative proposal – yet nothing happened. Shall I 
conclude that all those people who voted against the proposal did this just for 
the sake of voting against?

Eckhart

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Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 08/09/2012 01:41 PM, Eckhart Wörner wrote:

Therefore, I expected that those people who had voted against the
proposal came up with a well-designed alternative proposal


You have to work on your expectations then. Has it occurred to you that 
some people don't find extended conditions important enough at all?


Personally, I think that most of the extended conditions that the 
proposal tried to address were not worth having a tagging scheme for; 
they were stuff that only a few perfectionists would want to map anyway. 
And while I am not against perfectionists mapping stuff they like, I am 
against elevating this to the state of an "accepted proposal" because 
that would convey too much mindshare to such a marginal issue.


The proposal is driven by a geek-y desire to convert every last bit of 
information contained in a road sign into an OSM tag. But I don't think 
that this is what people will usually want to do, and I fear that giving 
this idea more mindshare will in the end lead to our editors being 
burdened by special restriction composer preset tabs where you can 
generate stuff like time and weather dependent speed limits for disabled 
persons with children.


I don't think that the proposal is the "de facto standard" either. I 
think some of its parts will probably be used - e.g. I could see 
"maxspeed:wet" being of use. I think it is likely however that this will 
be interpreted like a normal, fixed tag, and I don't believe anyone will 
actually implement a restriction parser that understands any combination 
of restrictions on any tags.


I have no problem whatsoever if the mapping of speed limits that only 
apply to HGV at night happens by way of a "note" tag. It's just not 
frequent enough to even discuss.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

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Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?

[Martin Vonwald]

While I agree with Frederik almost completely, the absence of a
tagging scheme for conditions will have some unwanted side effects. A
current example in my opinion would be this great and completely
intuitive n2/n3 tagging that was just invented. It was already
documented in the german access article, giving the impression that
this is an accepted tag. If we would have a tagging scheme for
conditions this could have been prevented.

Martin

2012/8/9 Frederik Ramm :
> Hi,
>
>
> On 08/09/2012 01:41 PM, Eckhart Wörner wrote:
>>
>> Therefore, I expected that those people who had voted against the
>> proposal came up with a well-designed alternative proposal
>
>
> You have to work on your expectations then. Has it occurred to you that some
> people don't find extended conditions important enough at all?
>
> Personally, I think that most of the extended conditions that the proposal
> tried to address were not worth having a tagging scheme for; they were stuff
> that only a few perfectionists would want to map anyway. And while I am not
> against perfectionists mapping stuff they like, I am against elevating this
> to the state of an "accepted proposal" because that would convey too much
> mindshare to such a marginal issue.
>
> The proposal is driven by a geek-y desire to convert every last bit of
> information contained in a road sign into an OSM tag. But I don't think that
> this is what people will usually want to do, and I fear that giving this
> idea more mindshare will in the end lead to our editors being burdened by
> special restriction composer preset tabs where you can generate stuff like
> time and weather dependent speed limits for disabled persons with children.
>
> I don't think that the proposal is the "de facto standard" either. I think
> some of its parts will probably be used - e.g. I could see "maxspeed:wet"
> being of use. I think it is likely however that this will be interpreted
> like a normal, fixed tag, and I don't believe anyone will actually implement
> a restriction parser that understands any combination of restrictions on any
> tags.
>
> I have no problem whatsoever if the mapping of speed limits that only apply
> to HGV at night happens by way of a "note" tag. It's just not frequent
> enough to even discuss.
>
> Bye
> Frederik
>
> --
> Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am 09.08.2012 um 14:36 schrieb Frederik Ramm :

> I have no problem whatsoever if the mapping of speed limits that only apply 
> to HGV at night happens by way of a "note" tag. It's just not frequent enough 
> to even discuss.


Actually time dependent speed limits, (e.g. to reduce noise at night time) or 
access conditions (e.g. for motorbikes) are not so rare, but as long as there 
is no agreed syntax (and no data consumer using this info) most mappers (myself 
included) will happily ignore these details.

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?

[Eckhart Wörner]

Hi Frederik,

Am Donnerstag, 9. August 2012, 14:36:40 schrieb Frederik Ramm:
> You have to work on your expectations then. Has it occurred to you that 
> some people don't find extended conditions important enough at all?
> 
> Personally, I think that most of the extended conditions that the 
> proposal tried to address were not worth having a tagging scheme for; 
> they were stuff that only a few perfectionists would want to map anyway. 

Yeah, e.g. those quixotic perfectionist geeks from Synyx.

> And while I am not against perfectionists mapping stuff they like, I am 
> against elevating this to the state of an "accepted proposal" because 
> that would convey too much mindshare to such a marginal issue.

In constrast to *really* important features like diet meals, clocks or fire 
hydrants…

> The proposal is driven by a geek-y desire to convert every last bit of 
> information contained in a road sign into an OSM tag. But I don't think 

Okay, I repeat it one more time for you: this is not about some stuff geeks 
want to add to the database, this is serious stuff that some companies actually 
want to use (and other companies like MapQuest and Tele Atlas sell this kind of 
information).
If you don't believe me then just have a look at GDF, which is an industrial 
standard that specifies exactly the same "geek-y" stuff (IIRC you can find some 
older versions of the standard on the internet).

> that this is what people will usually want to do, and I fear that giving 
> this idea more mindshare will in the end lead to our editors being 
> burdened by special restriction composer preset tabs where you can 
> generate stuff like time and weather dependent speed limits for disabled 
> persons with children.

Yeah, like the UI-cluttering turn restrictions plugin in JOSM… wait, what? Yes, 
it is a *plugin*. If you do not like it, just do not download it.

> I don't think that the proposal is the "de facto standard" either. I 
> think some of its parts will probably be used - e.g. I could see 
> "maxspeed:wet" being of use. I think it is likely however that this will 
> be interpreted like a normal, fixed tag, […]

I cannot find any wiki entry for
- maxspeed:wet
- maxspeed:hgv:forward
- maxspeed:motorcycle
- toll:hgv
- toll:forward
- access:hgv:forward
(just to pick a few).
If those are all fixed tags, then where are the wiki entries for them?
On the other hand, the Extended Conditions proposal explains *all* of them, 
just in one page instead of thousand pages.

> […] and I don't believe anyone will 
> actually implement a restriction parser that understands any combination
> of restrictions on any tags.

It's not that difficult to implement, trust me.

> I have no problem whatsoever if the mapping of speed limits that only 
> apply to HGV at night happens by way of a "note" tag. It's just not 
> frequent enough to even discuss.

For something that's not worth discussing, the discussion is quite lengthy.

About that note tag proposal of yours: this is the most stupid proposal I have 
heard so far. I have a better one: why not stuff everything we ever want to tag 
into one big note tag, that would make all editors a *lot* simpler. (On the 
other hand, it would make using the data impossible, but as you already stated, 
the mapper is the only person that is important.)

Eckhart

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Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?

[Ole Nielsen / osm]

> Hi tagging list,
>
> the Extended Conditions proposal has been shot down by a majority, and
> therefore there is still no "official" way of tagging quite a lot of
> things. (As a side note, the Extended Conditions proposal is still the de
> facto standard.)
>
> Therefore, I expected that those people who had voted against the proposal
> came up with a well-designed alternative proposal – yet nothing
> happened. Shall I conclude that all those people who voted against the
> proposal did this just for the sake of voting against?

First of all I actually approved the proposal but later realized that
having variable keys is less than ideal. I am currently working on an
alternative proposal and I was planning to announce it within a few days
(I have only limited internet access the next couple of days).

But here it is.

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditional_restrictions

A short comment on the proposal: The actual conditions go into the tag
value. The transport mode (vehicle catagory) and the direction stay in the
key in accordance with current practice for access restrictions.

Feel free to comment on it, preferably on the talk page.

Ole / polderrunner




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[Tagging] Extended tagging schema - my thoughts

[Rob Nickerson]

Hi all,

One of the issues raised with the extended conditions tag schema was the
use of variable values in the key part of the tag. For example maxspeed:wet
= 80 is in the form constant:variable=variable. This has been deemed to
break the basic tagging rules.

Can I therefore give alternative suggestions:

  *  maxspeed=120; 80?wet; 60?wet+hgv

Here '?' can be interpreted as 'if' and '+' as 'and'. Many alternatives can
be proposed using alternate symbols (or none at all). In fact, it is
already in use:

  *  opening_hours=Mo-Sa 10:00-20:00; Tu off

This is off the form constant=condition value; condition value. Using this
existing schema, the maxspeed example becomes:

  *  maxspeed=120; wet 80; wet+hgv 60

Advantages: Easy to reduce back to the basic condition, editors can
implement this in a fancy GUI; expandable, can use bots to analyse/fix

Opinions welcome,
Regards,
RobJN
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Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Extended tagging schema - my thoughts

[Rob Nickerson]

(Foolish me - meant to send that email to the tagging list. It's now posted
there so suggest any more responses are to the tagging list.)

Yep, many formats can be used. First thing is to see if the idea is liked
by anyone, including Eckhart, who raised the issue on the tagging list
today.

Regards,
Rob



On 9 August 2012 17:14, Pieren  wrote:

> On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 5:51 PM, Rob Nickerson 
> wrote:
>
> >   *  maxspeed=120; 80?wet; 60?wet+hgv
> >
> > Here '?' can be interpreted as 'if' and '+' as 'and'.
>
> It's maybe more readable if you write "120; wet ? 80 ; wet+hgv ? 60"
>
> Pieren
>
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Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?

[Johan Jönsson]

Ole Nielsen / osm  writes:
> 
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Conditional_restrictions
> 
> A short comment on the proposal: The actual conditions go into the tag
> value. The transport mode (vehicle catagory) and the direction stay in the
> key in accordance with current practice for access restrictions.
> Ole / polderrunner
> 
Good work there, a very good blend of expanding the key with already used 
information *:hgv:conditional=* and at the same time keeping more complex 
information in the values *=no:(12:00-18:00)

It is good that the expansion of the key is only with things that are quite 
defined already:


Maybe more could be added if they get commonly used.

I am not sure if *:condition=* really needs to be added, but it has probably 
something to do with how the machines interprets keys.




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Re: [Tagging] traffic=fast

[Richard Mann]

There's usage=main and usage=branch, but that is pretty crude. You might
use that to reproduce the old BR network map (before Railtrack/NR went and
made all the lines the same width).

The norm on four track railways is for two of the lines to be designated
the fast lines (or main lines on Great Western) and two to be designated
the slow lines (or relief lines on Great Western). The naming isn't as
clear if the pairs of lines diverge (eg the lines that bypass Redhill on
the way to Brighton), but the idea is basically the same.

Richard

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:31 PM, Colin Smale  wrote:

>  As every track segment has a maximum speed, why not just apply the
> existing maxspeed=* tag to the tracks? It is not clear to me whether your
> intention with traffic=fast refers to some attribute of the track itself,
> or the use to which it is put. Is it some "official" designation (from
> Network Rail)? I recall also seeing things like service=main_line (from
> memory) to distinguish main line from local tracks.
>
> Colin
>
>
> On 09/08/2012 11:33, Richard Mann wrote:
>
> There's two things that distinguish HSLs/LGVs/NBSs: high maxspeed
> (typically 250-320, though some would include the new lines in Switzerland,
> which are "only" 200), and a lack of slow traffic (freight, stopping
> passenger services) because they have alternative routes.
>
> In some cases, you can get pretty high speeds without providing a second
> pair of lines, if traffic is sparse (upto 200kmh in the UK, upto 230kmh in
> Germany), so I think the presence/absence of a parallel slow route is
> something that can usefully tagged explicitly.
>  Richard
>
>
> On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 12:21 AM, St Niklaas  wrote:
>
>>  Hi taggers,
>>
>> Colins question are there more countries with different speed rules
>> on tracks ? Yes all the TGV like tracks in Europe through, France, Germany
>> and Netherlands are specially build for TGVs but somewhere there still
>> tracks combined, limited speed up to 100 miles / hr.
>>
>> Hendrik
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Advice & clarification of the railway tracks=* tag required.

[Dave F.]

On 09/08/2012 12:13, Pieren wrote:

On Thu, Aug 9, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Dave F.  wrote:


Disappointing that you didn't rescind your track edits first

Then do it. The current tagging of your example with "tracks=4" is simply wrong.


I realise & accept that OSM is a 'do-ocracy' - a Do It Yourself system 
but if someone is proved to have detrimentally edited the database then 
I think *they* should retract the edits themselves - true D.I.Y.


Dave F.

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Re: [Tagging] Everybody is hiding?

[Eckhart Wörner]

Hi Ole,

Am Donnerstag, 9. August 2012, 17:55:24 schrieb Ole Nielsen / osm:
> First of all I actually approved the proposal but later realized that
> having variable keys is less than ideal.

then *please* tell me the reason why you believe this is the case, because I 
haven't seen any compelling counter-argument so far. What I have seen from 
different people:
- allows for an almost infinite number of keys: existing tagging shows that 
keys tend to cluster, e.g. maxspeed:(22:00-06:00) is in use 395 (!) times with 
6 different values (putting this into perspective: meagre 4494 occurences of 
maxspeed:backward). Those clustering effects become even stronger with 
increased usage.
- kills PostgreSQL database performance: when you preprocess your routing data, 
you have to do a linear scan over all tag hstores anyway.
- difficult because of special chars: the only situation where this actually 
matters is when you search inside your editor – and in that case the ':' 
already requires you to quote your key, at least in JOSM
- difficult to parse for computers: every programmer can tell you in a second 
that this is plain wrong
- difficult to parse for humans: so far, everybody I talked to about this was 
able to grasp the meaning of maxspeed:(22:00-06:00) = 100 in a split second
And – of course – my favourite:
- un-OSM-y, don't like it

Eckhart

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Re: [Tagging] Extended tagging schema - my thoughts

[Eckhart Wörner]

Hi Rob,

Am Donnerstag, 9. August 2012, 17:33:59 schrieb Rob Nickerson:
> Can I therefore give alternative suggestions:
> 
>   *  maxspeed=120; 80?wet; 60?wet+hgv

Ask a few mappers not participating in this discussion what this key/value 
combination is supposed to express, and I'll bet most of them will have 
problems telling you the correct meaning; e.g. the first time I read this, I 
interpreted wet+hgv as "wet or hgv".

> Here '?' can be interpreted as 'if' and '+' as 'and'. Many alternatives can
> be proposed using alternate symbols (or none at all). In fact, it is
> already in use:
> 
>   *  opening_hours=Mo-Sa 10:00-20:00; Tu off

I'd be careful using the opening_hours syntax as an analogy, e.g. what is
maxspeed = 80?wet;120
supposed to mean?

> Advantages: Easy to reduce back to the basic condition, editors can
> implement this in a fancy GUI; expandable, can use bots to analyse/fix

I'm not sure what "easy to reduce back to the basic condition" means. However, 
all the other advantages you list exist for almost any tagging scheme proposed 
so far.

Here are some disadvantages of merging everything into a single value:
- readability and ease of manual editing suffers
- you lose backward compatibility
- you don't integrate widely used conditions like forward, hgv, …
- you run into the (real) risk of exceeding the 255 byte limit imposed on values

Eckhart

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