[Tagging] Wide steps

[David Earl]

Any suggestions as to how to represent some steps...

These steps aren't that unusual I guess, but they aren't a staircase. 
They form the edges of a piazza-like platform, running most of the way 
around it. There are only 4 steps, but they are several of them, up to 
about 40m wide: http://twitpic.com/6whcou


I could do a polygon tagged
  highway=steps
  area=yes
but then there is a problem indicating which is the incline of the 
steps, as incline=up no longer makes sense. How would you know that it 
is a wide, short set of steps rather than a long, more conventional 
staircase.


I could do a way
  highway=steps
  incline=right
to indicate that the direction of the steps is across the way rather 
than along it, though of course no renderer will understand that, and 
one could in principle have both long and wide steps. (Indeed, people 
who went to Girona will remember that the steps up to the Cathedral 
there are maybe 25m wide and 50m long, wider than the building they lead 
up to; these are currently a simple way in OSM).


David


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Re: [Tagging] Wide steps

[Simone Saviolo]

2011/10/7 David Earl 

> Any suggestions as to how to represent some steps...
>
> These steps aren't that unusual I guess, but they aren't a staircase. They
> form the edges of a piazza-like platform, running most of the way around it.
> There are only 4 steps, but they are several of them, up to about 40m wide:
> http://twitpic.com/6whcou
>
> I could do a polygon tagged
>  highway=steps
>  area=yes
> but then there is a problem indicating which is the incline of the steps,
> as incline=up no longer makes sense. How would you know that it is a wide,
> short set of steps rather than a long, more conventional staircase.
>
> I could do a way
>  highway=steps
>  incline=right
> to indicate that the direction of the steps is across the way rather than
> along it, though of course no renderer will understand that, and one could
> in principle have both long and wide steps. (Indeed, people who went to
> Girona will remember that the steps up to the Cathedral there are maybe 25m
> wide and 50m long, wider than the building they lead up to; these are
> currently a simple way in OSM).
>

I'm interested in the matter too. The only thing I could think of is to make
a relation that includes both the area and a way, whose direction (or
tagging) indicates which way is up.

Note that there's also the case where there's a "regular" staircase with
long steps. This happens not only in urban environments but also in hill and
mountain areas, where a path that goes up a hill could be split into "steps"
to ease those walking up. The path may be a few metres wide and the steps
may even be 50 metres long.

David


Regards,

Simone
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Re: [Tagging] Wide steps

[Erik Johansson]

On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 4:50 PM, David Earl  wrote:
> Any suggestions as to how to represent some steps...
>
> These steps aren't that unusual I guess, but they aren't a staircase. They
> form the edges of a piazza-like platform, running most of the way around it.
> There are only 4 steps, but they are several of them, up to about 40m wide:
>
> http://twitpic.com/6whcou

http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/119046469
http://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Vinterviken_fabriksomr_2010.jpg?uselang=sv

This one has been tagged as barrier=retaining_wall which is of course
true of these steps.


There are also proposals on the wiki about being able to show what
direction an area of stairs go, I believe someone needs to show that
it is practical to tag like this.

/emj

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Re: [Tagging] Wide steps

[Peter Wendorff]

Hi.
I stumbled upon that issue several times, yet.
I'm not sure, but perhaps the area:highway-proposal [1] is useful here.
Before we have to discuss the general pros and cons of that proposal: I 
don't think it's necessary to tag all streets with an area (but it would 
be possible, sure), and I don't think, it's useful to do so in general 
before we have tools to support that.


But I think, in cases where the line generalization of a highway is not 
enough - like it's here in the steps issue, it would be useful to do that.


The additional highway:steps would stay at separate ways "on top" of the 
area.


Usual routers then use the "traditional" highway:steps alone, renderers 
could use the area:highway=steps polygon to render steps in the real 
size (would need special database selections to apply that rendering, 
but I'm sure, it's possible).


regards
Peter

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/area:highway

Am 07.10.2011 16:50, schrieb David Earl:

Any suggestions as to how to represent some steps...

These steps aren't that unusual I guess, but they aren't a staircase. 
They form the edges of a piazza-like platform, running most of the way 
around it. There are only 4 steps, but they are several of them, up to 
about 40m wide: http://twitpic.com/6whcou


I could do a polygon tagged
  highway=steps
  area=yes
but then there is a problem indicating which is the incline of the 
steps, as incline=up no longer makes sense. How would you know that it 
is a wide, short set of steps rather than a long, more conventional 
staircase.


I could do a way
  highway=steps
  incline=right
to indicate that the direction of the steps is across the way rather 
than along it, though of course no renderer will understand that, and 
one could in principle have both long and wide steps. (Indeed, people 
who went to Girona will remember that the steps up to the Cathedral 
there are maybe 25m wide and 50m long, wider than the building they 
lead up to; these are currently a simple way in OSM).


David


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Re: [Tagging] Wide steps

[David Earl]

On 07/10/2011 18:13, Peter Wendorff wrote:

I'm not sure, but perhaps the area:highway-proposal [1] is useful here.


There are already numerous highway areas for things like market places 
and piazzas, but it's done as highway=x;area=yes, not with its own key. 
These are properly rendered on Mapnik (e.g. 
http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/way/27918828 ).


(I don't see any need to change this unless we adopt a proper area 
primitive).



Before we have to discuss the general pros and cons of that proposal: I
don't think it's necessary to tag all streets with an area (but it would
be possible, sure), and I don't think, it's useful to do so in general
before we have tools to support that.

But I think, in cases where the line generalization of a highway is not
enough - like it's here in the steps issue, it would be useful to do that.


As I said, yes, an area for what is a significant area rather than a 
linear feature is the obvious method, but the difficulty with steps is 
indicating which side(s) are the top and bottom. (We also have L shaped 
step areas, and semi-circular ones among others I have come across in 
the last week).




The additional highway:steps would stay at separate ways "on top" of the
area.


This shouldn't be necessary, any more than any other highway area. It's 
like putting a node for parking in the middle of a parking area.


David


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Re: [Tagging] Wide steps

[Peter Wendorff]

Am 07.10.2011 20:18, schrieb David Earl:



The additional highway:steps would stay at separate ways "on top" of the
area.


This shouldn't be necessary, any more than any other highway area. 
It's like putting a node for parking in the middle of a parking area.
I don't see how you are able to tag the direction (up/down) of the steps 
on an area, so yes, the additional "traditional" way IS necessary.

The direction of steps is highly relevant for several reasons:
* Steps going upwards are no dangerous place for children - they cannot 
fall down with their bikes etc.
* For blind people steps upwards are an obstacle easily detectable by 
the blind mans stick; stairs down are more dangerous and more difficult.
* A good bicycle routing application could be configurable to allow 
stairs downwards e.g. for mountain bikes, while avoiding stairs upwards, 
as these are more difficult to use by bike.


regards
Peter

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Re: [Tagging] Wide steps

[Brad Neuhauser]

On Fri, Oct 7, 2011 at 2:01 PM, Peter Wendorff wrote:

> Am 07.10.2011 20:18, schrieb David Earl:
>
>
>>  The additional highway:steps would stay at separate ways "on top" of the
>>> area.
>>>
>>
>> This shouldn't be necessary, any more than any other highway area. It's
>> like putting a node for parking in the middle of a parking area.
>>
> I don't see how you are able to tag the direction (up/down) of the steps on
> an area, so yes, the additional "traditional" way IS necessary.
> The direction of steps is highly relevant for several reasons:
> * Steps going upwards are no dangerous place for children - they cannot
> fall down with their bikes etc.
> * For blind people steps upwards are an obstacle easily detectable by the
> blind mans stick; stairs down are more dangerous and more difficult.
> * A good bicycle routing application could be configurable to allow stairs
> downwards e.g. for mountain bikes, while avoiding stairs upwards, as these
> are more difficult to use by bike.
>
> This double-tagging seems sensible. At least it would be analogous to using
the "riverbank" area for wide rivers, but still maintaining a "river" way
for network/flow direction purposes.  Brad


> regards
> Peter
>
>
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