Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] SteveC should decide
2009/10/8 Shaun McDonald : > There is nothing wrong with mapping each lane even when it is two way, as > that is effectively what it is as I doubt you'd be allowed to do a u-turn on > most of those examples. There is continuous discussions about this, and generally we agreed that you shouldn't do it in absence of a physical divider. E.g. you could do a U-Turn agains the traffic-rules, or you could be not affected by traffic rules (police, ambulance,...) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Google has dual carriage way where it's not built yet
2009/10/9 Bráulio Bezerra da Silva : > I agree with you. Every single map of my city I've seen has some "planned > roads" where in reality we have a forest or something else. These roads are > in the "oficial map" of the city plan made by the authorities and are > promptly copied to comercial maps. I think we should map only things that > are clearly in the construction phase, and of course use a tag to indicate > this. I think we could map also planned roads, as long as they are mapped as planned and not as in construction or in use. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Google has dual carriage way where it'snot built yet
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > 2009/10/9 Bráulio Bezerra da Silva : > > I agree with you. Every single map of my city I've seen has some > > "planned roads" where in reality we have a forest or something > > else. These roads are in the "oficial map" of the city plan made by > > the authorities and are promptly copied to comercial maps. I think > > we should map only things that are clearly in the construction > > phase, and of course use a tag to indicate this. > > I think we could map also planned roads, as long as they are mapped as > planned and not as in construction or in use. > > cheers, > Martin > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging Then you are proposing highway=planned planned=* (highway class) Is that correct? Sounds OK to me. -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skipped numbers
I addressed this topic in the Karlsruhe discussion page, but didn't get much constructive input. Maybe it's more of a US problem. Still I thought I should bring it here, since tagging has been split off from general Talk. In Fort Worth, TX, (pop. approaching a million) in a large number of the suburban areas, the city planners apparently decided to take into consideration the possibility of having duplex housing (two residences with a single common wall) in each plat or lot, even though the large majority of housing is single family. They therefore allocated two house numbers per lot. Consequently, in single family dwelling areas, with even/odd numbering, the numbering sequences go 00, 04, 08, 12, etc. for even (N/W), and and 01, 05, 08, 13, etc. for odd (S/E) house numbering. I don't know of any way to handle this with the current interpolation scheme. Considering the thousands of housenumbers involved, I need to be able to use interpolation for numbering, but current agents would render twice the number of house numbers as actually exist. I have a suggested scheme of adding an interpolation subkey, addr:interpolation:skip=*, where skip would be the number of house numbers to skip in the sequence (all/even/odd). Using skip=1, with interpolation=even/odd I can map these cases. I realize that this creates a redundant tagging option (interpolation=all, skip=1 with odd or even starting number) but I doubt that will be used since the original is easier to tag, and I can't think of a better way to do this. I'm fairly new to OSM, and this may not be the best way to pursue this idea, so suggestions, either for process, or for a better solution, are invited. -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Google has dual carriage way where it'snot built yet
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 4:41 PM, Randy Thomson wrote: > Then you are proposing > > highway=planned > planned=* (highway class) > > Is that correct? Sounds OK to me. Make sure you get permission from the designer of the plans - in the form of a release under CC-BY, CC-BY-SA, or into the public domain. Even then, I have mixed feelings about it, until there's support in the major editors for downloading and editing subsets of data. A proposed highway cutting through a housing development is going to make editing a pain. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skipped numbers
Randy Thomson wrote: > I addressed this topic in the Karlsruhe discussion page, but didn't > get much constructive input. Maybe it's more of a US problem. Still I > thought I should bring it here, since tagging has been split off from > general Talk. > > In Fort Worth, TX, (pop. approaching a million) in a large number of > the suburban areas, the city planners apparently decided to take into > consideration the possibility of having duplex housing (two residences > with a single common wall) in each plat or lot, even though the large > majority of housing is single family. They therefore allocated two > house numbers per lot. > > Consequently, in single family dwelling areas, with even/odd > numbering, the numbering sequences go 00, 04, 08, 12, etc. for even > (N/W), and and 01, 05, 08, 13, etc. for odd (S/E) house numbering. > > I don't know of any way to handle this with the current interpolation > scheme. Considering the thousands of housenumbers involved, I need to > be able to use interpolation for numbering, but current agents would > render twice the number of house numbers as actually exist. I have a > suggested scheme of adding an interpolation subkey, > addr:interpolation:skip=*, where skip would be the number of house > numbers to skip in the sequence (all/even/odd). Using skip=1, with > interpolation=even/odd I can map these cases. I realize that this > creates a redundant tagging option (interpolation=all, skip=1 with odd > or even starting number) but I doubt that will be used since the > original is easier to tag, and I can't think of a better way to do > this. > > I'm fairly new to OSM, and this may not be the best way to pursue this > idea, so suggestions, either for process, or for a better solution, > are invited. Forgot to add that here is an example, using current node addressing on one side of the street, and my proposed method on the other side of the street: http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.67212&lon=-97.39307&zoom=17 Current mapping agents would, of course, ignore the skip tag, and assume twice the number of houses on the interpolated side. (I'm not even sure that's a problem.) -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Google has dual carriage way where it'snot built yet
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 5:50 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Anthony wrote: >> >> Even then, I have mixed feelings about it, until there's support in >> the major editors for downloading and editing subsets of data. > > First of all, this would have to be supported by the API as well. And it is > always very difficult because "everything's connected". The usual solution is that items in different layers can't be connected, right? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skipped numbers
Randy Thomson: >> Consequently, in single family dwelling areas, with even/odd >> numbering, the numbering sequences go 00, 04, 08, 12, etc. for even >> (N/W), and and 01, 05, 08, 13, etc. for odd (S/E) house numbering. >> >> [...] I have a >> suggested scheme of adding an interpolation subkey, >> addr:interpolation:skip=*, where skip would be the number of house >> numbers to skip in the sequence (all/even/odd). I don't think that using a subkey for all/even/odd is the best solution, because it means that you are indirectly modifying the definition of interpolation=odd (which is interpreted as "this way represents all odd numbers in the interval set by the end points"). My suggestion is to use a new interpolation value; something like interpolation=step + step=4 (step=2 would produce the same result as odd/even, depending on the house number it starts with; step=1 would have the same effect as all). It will of course mean that current applications won't use your interpolation ways at all, but that's how it is supposed be when someone invents a new tag. If the situation is common enough, support will be added. Tobias Knerr ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skipped numbers
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 5:51 PM, Randy Thomson wrote: > Randy Thomson wrote: >> Consequently, in single family dwelling areas, with even/odd >> numbering, the numbering sequences go 00, 04, 08, 12, etc. for even >> (N/W), and and 01, 05, 08, 13, etc. for odd (S/E) house numbering. >> >> I don't know of any way to handle this with the current interpolation >> scheme. Considering the thousands of housenumbers involved, I need to >> be able to use interpolation for numbering, but current agents would >> render twice the number of house numbers as actually exist. > Forgot to add that here is an example, using current node addressing on > one side of the street, and my proposed method on the other side of the > street: > > http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=32.67212&lon=-97.39307&zoom=17 I don't think you should include the "skip". If renderers are rendering an interpolation as individual houses, they are wrong. In an interpolation, the number of houses is unknown. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skipped numbers
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote: > My suggestion is to use a new interpolation value; something like > interpolation=step + step=4 (step=2 would produce the same result as > odd/even, depending on the house number it starts with; step=1 would > have the same effect as all). I'd agree with that if the numbers 2, 6, 10, etc. were being reserved for different lots. But in this example, the lots are really each being assigned two numbers. Something which perhaps should be clarified is that Randy said that "the large majority of housing is single family". Does this mean that duplexes are disallowed in most areas, and you are only going to use this scheme where duplexes are disallowed (and keep it up to date as zoning changes and/or variances are granted)? Or does this mean that most houses on a particular street are single family, and a few here and there are duplexes? Either way, I would suggest that simply using an even/odd interpolation is the better solution. In the former case, it saves you from updating things every time there's a zoning change or variance granted. And in the latter case, it's just plain the only correct thing to do. As I said in my previous message, an interpolation explicitly omits the number of houses. In my town we have plenty of blocks (especially in commercial areas) with addressing like "1701, 1733, 1751, 1755". In fact, I'll give a real example from my town: 14802, 14602, 14502, 14402, 14324, 14308, 14002. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skipped numbers
Anthony writes: > In an interpolation, the number of houses is unknown. I don't agree with this statement. I'd assume that an interpolation=even between numbers 8 and 42 means that EVERY even number between 8 and 42 is represented by this way. (With the exception of numbers that are tagged on individual nodes.) Apparently, you would read it as "an unknown number of even housenumbers between 8 and 42 is represented by this way". My interpretation seems to be supported by the description of interpolation in the Karlsruhe schema. Quote: > For missing house numbers (e.g. missing "12") two ways > need to be drawn (e.g. "1-11" and "13-25"). This separation wouldn't be necessary according to your interpretation of interpolation, as the interpolation way wouldn't tell you whether a certain number (12) is represented by it anyway. Tobias Knerr ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skipped numbers
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Tobias Knerr wrote: > Anthony writes: >> In an interpolation, the number of houses is unknown. > > I don't agree with this statement. I'd assume that an interpolation=even > between numbers 8 and 42 means that EVERY even number between 8 and 42 > is represented by this way. (With the exception of numbers that are > tagged on individual nodes.) Apparently, you would read it as "an > unknown number of even housenumbers between 8 and 42 is represented by > this way". > > My interpretation seems to be supported by the description of > interpolation in the Karlsruhe schema. Quote: > >> For missing house numbers (e.g. missing "12") two ways >> need to be drawn (e.g. "1-11" and "13-25"). > > This separation wouldn't be necessary according to your interpretation > of interpolation, as the interpolation way wouldn't tell you whether a > certain number (12) is represented by it anyway. > > Tobias Knerr Perhaps that's how OSM has defined it, but if so they have misdefined interpolations in a way that makes them useless. If you know where all the individual houses are, why bother with an interpolation? What is one supposed to do if the number of houses is unknown? Do I need to propose an addr:interpolation_as_the_word_is_defined_by_everyone_in_the_gis_world_except_osm to handle that situation? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Google has dual carriage way where it'snot built yet
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 7:31 PM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Hi, > > Anthony wrote: Even then, I have mixed feelings about it, until there's support in the major editors for downloading and editing subsets of data. > >>> First of all, this would have to be supported by the API as well. And it >>> is >>> always very difficult because "everything's connected". > >> The usual solution is that items in different layers can't be connected, >> right? > > That would be fatal; we do that all the time in OSM. In fact, OSM does not > have different layers in the same way as traditional GISes have - in OSM, > you define your layers when you take data out, instead of when you put data > in. That's my point though. I'm not sure we should allow "proposed" or "historical" data unless and until OSM supports the features of traditional layers. Perhaps there is a way to be smarter about it (allow links between layers but warn when they are broken), but I'm not so sure about even that. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skippednumbers
Granted the number of buildings can be unknown, but is the number of valid addresses unknown? In my case, the second address is not valid, and will never be valid, unless a house is torn down and a duplex is built in its place, which might (or might not) require a zoning change. -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skippednumbers
Anthony wrote: > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:15 PM, Tobias Knerr > wrote: > > My suggestion is to use a new interpolation value; something like > > interpolation=step + step=4 (step=2 would produce the same result as > > odd/even, depending on the house number it starts with; step=1 would > > have the same effect as all). > > I'd agree with that if the numbers 2, 6, 10, etc. were being reserved > for different lots. But in this example, the lots are really each > being assigned two numbers. > > Something which perhaps should be clarified is that Randy said that > "the large majority of housing is single family". Does this mean > that duplexes are disallowed in most areas, and you are only going to > use this scheme where duplexes are disallowed (and keep it up to date > as zoning changes and/or variances are granted)? Or does this mean > that most houses on a particular street are single family, and a few > here and there are duplexes? > > Either way, I would suggest that simply using an even/odd > interpolation is the better solution. In the former case, it saves > you from updating things every time there's a zoning change or > variance granted. And in the latter case, it's just plain the only > correct thing to do. > > As I said in my previous message, an interpolation explicitly omits > the number of houses. In my town we have plenty of blocks (especially > in commercial areas) with addressing like "1701, 1733, 1751, 1755". > > In fact, I'll give a real example from my town: 14802, 14602, 14502, > 14402, 14324, 14308, 14002. I actually shouldn't have said that two addresses are assigned to the same lot. It's only assumption based on my observation that on blocks that contain duplexes, the addresses don't skip (except for the odd even skip) whereas on blocks with single family dwellings the skip is apparent. The skipping may, but probably doesn't, have anything to do with zoning. Where duplexes exist, there is no need to skip numbers, since both numbers on used on a single lot. Where single family dwellings exist the a number is skipped between "addressable entities". The intermediary addresses are not valid, because there is no building entrance to tie the address to. Of course, there are many places, mostly in commercial land-use areas that meet your example of widely and irregularly spaced numbers. I wouldn't attempt to use interpolation in such a situatation, but would either tag a building outline or a building node with the address. I am speaking of areas where the skip is orderly, regular, consistent (somewhat reduncant terms). -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skippednumbers
Anthony wrote: > On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 6:54 PM, Tobias Knerr > wrote: > > Anthony writes: > >> In an interpolation, the number of houses is unknown. > > > > I don't agree with this statement. I'd assume that an > > interpolation=even between numbers 8 and 42 means that EVERY even > > number between 8 and 42 is represented by this way. (With the > > exception of numbers that are tagged on individual nodes.) > > Apparently, you would read it as "an unknown number of even > > housenumbers between 8 and 42 is represented by this way". > > > > My interpretation seems to be supported by the description of > > interpolation in the Karlsruhe schema. Quote: > > > >> For missing house numbers (e.g. missing "12") two ways > >> need to be drawn (e.g. "1-11" and "13-25"). > > > > This separation wouldn't be necessary according to your > > interpretation of interpolation, as the interpolation way wouldn't > > tell you whether a certain number (12) is represented by it anyway. > > > > Tobias Knerr > > Perhaps that's how OSM has defined it, but if so they have misdefined > interpolations in a way that makes them useless. If you know where > all the individual houses are, why bother with an interpolation? > > What is one supposed to do if the number of houses is unknown? Do I > need to propose an > addr:interpolation_as_the_word_is_defined_by_everyone_in_the_gis_world > _except_osm to handle that situation? My answer to your first question is a labor saving of anywhere from 2 to 10-fold for the mapper. I'm talking about thousands of houses. My answer to your second question is you don't know anything about the reality of the addresses you are tagging you probably shouldn't be tagging them. -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularlyskipped numbers
Tobias Knerr wrote: > Anthony writes: > > In an interpolation, the number of houses is unknown. > > I don't agree with this statement. I'd assume that an > interpolation=even between numbers 8 and 42 means that EVERY even > number between 8 and 42 is represented by this way. (With the > exception of numbers that are tagged on individual nodes.) > Apparently, you would read it as "an unknown number of even > housenumbers between 8 and 42 is represented by this way". > > My interpretation seems to be supported by the description of > interpolation in the Karlsruhe schema. Quote: > > > For missing house numbers (e.g. missing "12") two ways > > need to be drawn (e.g. "1-11" and "13-25"). > > This separation wouldn't be necessary according to your interpretation > of interpolation, as the interpolation way wouldn't tell you whether a > certain number (12) is represented by it anyway. > > Tobias Knerr Guys, I'm going to be out of pocket for a few days, probably with no internet access (we'll see). I just want to say thanks to both of you for getting this dialog kicked off. Hopefully a few more will chime in along the way and we'll have some sort of consensus in a few days. Meanwhile, I'm not going to have an opportunity to do any addressing, anyway. -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularlyskipped numbers
Tobias Knerr wrote: > Randy Thomson: > >> Consequently, in single family dwelling areas, with even/odd > >> numbering, the numbering sequences go 00, 04, 08, 12, etc. for even > >> (N/W), and and 01, 05, 08, 13, etc. for odd (S/E) house numbering. > > > > >> [...] I have a > >> suggested scheme of adding an interpolation subkey, > >> addr:interpolation:skip=*, where skip would be the number of house > >> numbers to skip in the sequence (all/even/odd). > > I don't think that using a subkey for all/even/odd is the best > solution, because it means that you are indirectly modifying the > definition of interpolation=odd (which is interpreted as "this way > represents all odd numbers in the interval set by the end points"). > > My suggestion is to use a new interpolation value; something like > interpolation=step + step=4 (step=2 would produce the same result as > odd/even, depending on the house number it starts with; step=1 would > have the same effect as all). > > It will of course mean that current applications won't use your > interpolation ways at all, but that's how it is supposed be when > someone invents a new tag. If the situation is common enough, support > will be added. > > Tobias Knerr I see your point, and tentatively agree with it, much as I hate to say it, because it will totally screw up the current interpretation of interpolation, whereas my method will only be misinterpreted by doubling the number of valid addresses. Still as I said, it makes sense, and the weakness you pointed out in my approach is valid. -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skippednumbers
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Randy Thomson wrote: > Anthony wrote: >> If you know where >> all the individual houses are, why bother with an interpolation? > > My answer to your first question is a labor saving of anywhere from 2 > to 10-fold for the mapper. I'm talking about thousands of houses. > How are you going about verifying that every single one of those thousands of houses are numbered according to the scheme, that none of them have multiple family members, etc? >> What is one supposed to do if the number of houses is unknown? Do I >> need to propose an >> addr:interpolation_as_the_word_is_defined_by_everyone_in_the_gis_world >> _except_osm to handle that situation? > > My answer to your second question is you don't know anything about the > reality of the addresses you are tagging you probably shouldn't be > tagging them. I didn't say I don't know anything. I said I don't know the number of houses. The way interpolations work, everywhere except for OSM, is that you record the address of the first house on the block and the last house of the block (possibly on each side), and you assume that the houses in between have numbers in between, roughly evenly spaced. That's not exact, and if you have more information it's certainly better. But it's good enough to allow routing software to get you to the right block, and approximately to the right section of the right block. And for retail areas, like individually addressed stores in a strip mall, it may not even be feasible to find the address of each location, even if you walked by each store (you might have to go inside and ask in order to find the address). And the information is going to change more frequently than you can keep up with anyway. Two store locations with two addresses get combined into one. One store location with one address gets split into two. This happens with houses as well, though not as frequently. I'm not saying it's wrong to give the extra detail, but I am saying it's wrong for data users to assume that an interpolation from 1-11 necessarily has a 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11. Not that I can think of any reason a data user would make that assumption in the first place. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skippednumbers
On Sat, Oct 10, 2009 at 9:35 PM, Randy Thomson wrote: > My answer to your first question is a labor saving of anywhere from 2 > to 10-fold for the mapper. I'm talking about thousands of houses. And what about the labor savings when I try to map a few hundred strip malls with addresses like this (real example): 14301,14303,14309,14341,14347,14349,14351,14361,14367,14369,14379,14391,14401,14405,14407,14425,14441,14443,14445,14457,14465,14463,14459 in the front, and in the back 14313,14317,14447,14449,14453,14455 Do we really have to let the perfect be the enemy of the good? I really can't use an interpolation 14301-14459,odd? I happen to have these numbers because I happen to have a printout of the layout of this particular strip mall (long story, don't ask). But if I didn't have that printout, it would mean going door to door, trying to find a number, possibly going inside to ask the address if it wasn't clear, etc. Actually, I'd say the interpolation is *better* than mapping each individual store, because the store numbers are going to change, and 14409 might be added, because 14407 splits into two, and if someone wants driving directions to 14409 they ought to be given an approximate answer, not told "address does not exist". ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Google has dual carriage way where it'snot built yet
2009/10/11 Anthony : > That's my point though. I'm not sure we should allow "proposed" or > "historical" data unless and until OSM supports the features of > traditional layers. Perhaps there is a way to be smarter about it > (allow links between layers but warn when they are broken), but I'm > not so sure about even that. This comes back to people wanting a 4th dimension... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
I can't think of a good solution for this, a few years ago they renumbered all properties along roads outside of residential areas to be the distance in decametres (10s of metres, 100m would be #10 etc) from the start of the road, they also have even on the right, odd on the left, this makes it easier for emergency services to find places because its based on distance. I doubt there would be an easy was to interpolate this information for display, but it could be used to work out end points for routing, and all we need to know is which end of a way is the start, the rest can be worked out. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularly skippednumbers
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, Randy Thomson wrote: > Of course, there are many places, mostly in commercial land-use areas > that meet your example of widely and irregularly spaced numbers. I > wouldn't attempt to use interpolation in such a situatation, but would > either tag a building outline or a building node with the address. I am > speaking of areas where the skip is orderly, regular, consistent > (somewhat reduncant terms). I'd like to describe the potential numbers on my rural road. I can't image how any form of interpolation will ever win with situations like this. (The variable here is always an integer) You can have an address which is F$, an address which is NIP$, or a rural number, which is actually designed with some underlying logic. You cannot have both an F$ and a NIP$ as F and NIP are mutually exclusive. Rural numbering is described here http://tinyurl.com/yhv7ady which is a large PDF (be warned), so this is a summary of the most important part "Rural Road (RR) numbers are allocated in a logical sequence based on the distance of primary access point to each property from the nominated start(one end) of a road. "Rural Road (RR) numbers are calculated by dividing the distance in metres from the datum point by 10 and rounding down to an odd (for properties on the left) or even number (for properties on the right) as required. "For example a property entrance 930 m from the datum point and situated in the left-hand side of the road will have a number 93.If the property entrance was on the right-hand side of the road then the rural road number will be 92." Another sort of address is RMB$, and this can exist along with F$ or NIP$. There are no RMB$ on my road, as we don't have a mail service. Then in some areas only the name of the mail route is used as the property address eg MS Blue or MS$, and the property owner hangs out a sign with the names of the residents on it. Don't worry about interpolation being difficult - just come and try and sort out these sort of numbers! ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Housenumber interpolation with regularlyskippednumbers
Anthony wrote: > I didn't say I don't know anything. I said I don't know the number of > houses. The way interpolations work, everywhere except for OSM, is > that you record the address of the first house on the block and the > last house of the block (possibly on each side), and you assume that > the houses in between have numbers in between, roughly evenly spaced. > > That's not exact, and if you have more information it's certainly > better. But it's good enough to allow routing software to get you to > the right block, and approximately to the right section of the right > block. > -snip > > I'm not saying it's wrong to give the extra detail, but I am saying > it's wrong for data users to assume that an interpolation from 1-11 > necessarily has a 1, 3, 5, 7, 9, and 11. Not that I can think of any > reason a data user would make that assumption in the first place. That is certainly one way to do it, and I grant that is the way most commercial map companies do it. In fact they often interpolate for many blocks at a time. I'm in the user group for a GPS system that uses TeleAtlas data. You'd be surprised, well probably not, how many users complain that "it doesn't even have my address in the right block!" My understanding was that OSM was attempting to be something better than that. If I know that a set of street addresses is numbered in a particular way, wouldn't it be better to have the capability to tag it that way than to only have the option to knowingly tag it incorrectly or to tag each address individually? I thought the answer to that question was obvious. Apparently it is far from that. Regarding your question of how I'll get the data, it doesn't relate to my issue. My issue is "I have this data that shows the houses skip every other number. I want a way to correctly interpolate those addresses rather than putting a node at each address." I think you would be surprised at the number of OSM data users, and certainly mappers, who make the assumption that the data is being entered as accurately and completely as possible. Especially if they read the various tag pages. However, I'm beginning to wonder if we are arguing the same question. I'm arguing for the capability to use interpolation to tag housenumbers relatively accurately, at least not knowingly tagging them incorrectly, using interpolation. I think maybe that you are arguing that you personally should not be required to map accurately if you don't feel its necessary to do so. I say this because I haven't really heard an objection from you to having the capability, only the objection to your having to use it. (Well, maybe a slight suggestion that I shouldn't do it either.) And, if the capability to do what I want to do is added to renders, routers, etc., I am certainly not saying that you should be required to use it. That would be anti-OSM, or anti-anarchist or some other terrible anti that I don't even want to think of. If that's the case then maybe we agree and don't know it. -- Randy ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, John Smith wrote: > I can't think of a good solution for this, a few years ago they > renumbered all properties along roads outside of residential areas to > be the distance in decametres (10s of metres, 100m would be #10 etc) > from the start of the road, they also have even on the right, odd on > the left, this makes it easier for emergency services to find places > because its based on distance. > > I doubt there would be an easy was to interpolate this information for > display, but it could be used to work out end points for routing, and > all we need to know is which end of a way is the start, the rest can > be worked out. There are 53 pages on how to make this work on the victorian document in this link http://tinyurl.com/yhv7ady and perhaps someone looking at their numerous examples of solutions for hard cases would find them useful? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] How to tag house numbers based on decametres?
2009/10/11 Liz : > On Sun, 11 Oct 2009, John Smith wrote: >> I can't think of a good solution for this, a few years ago they >> renumbered all properties along roads outside of residential areas to >> be the distance in decametres (10s of metres, 100m would be #10 etc) >> from the start of the road, they also have even on the right, odd on >> the left, this makes it easier for emergency services to find places >> because its based on distance. >> >> I doubt there would be an easy was to interpolate this information for >> display, but it could be used to work out end points for routing, and >> all we need to know is which end of a way is the start, the rest can >> be worked out. > > There are 53 pages on how to make this work on the victorian document in this > link http://tinyurl.com/yhv7ady > > and perhaps someone looking at their numerous examples of solutions for hard > cases would find them useful? I'm not sure how unique numbering properties based on distance is to AU/NZ, but they have made similar changes with the exit numbers on US interstates being based on the nearest mile marker from some nominated start point on the road. At this stage I'm thinking that this information can probably be attached directly to the way, rather than the usual method of adding a different way and then linking it to the road, since the single most important piece of information is where the start of the numbering begins. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
