Re: [Sursound] Stand alone recorder with built-in mics

[Michael Chapman]

>
>>

One of the presenters on the BBC's World Service's technology programme
"Click" just came out with words to the effect 'It's not 360 degrees, it's
four pi steradians' during a discussionof a (not) 360 degree video of the
construction of London's Crossrail.

Daring departure from dumbing down ... ?

Michael
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Re: [Sursound] Bizarre

[Sebastià V . Amengual]

A 01.11.2016 21:58, Stefan Schreiber escrigué:

Sebastià V. Amengual wrote:

I could be wrong, but as I understand, as far as the distance between 
the microphones is much smaller than
the wavelength, it is possible to obtain first-order microphones with 
any kind of directional pattern. Thus,
at least for a limited frequency range they could create the four 
cardioid signals or directly the B format
signals, just using linear combinations of the signals (delay and 
sum). Again, for a limited frequency range...


Yes, but  "how limited"?


That was one of the main cons. With the four distances that I used in my 
measurements (10.44mm, 23.49mm, 48.34mm, 98.35mm)
if we wanted to cover the whole frequency range, we needed at least 3 
microphones with different spacing, and then the
signals could be combined depending on the frequency. But as Fons 
pointed out, a gain mismatch has quite a big influence
on the directivity, and self-noise is also increased. In our case we 
used GRAS matched mic's, so this problem was mainly

solved, but I assume with cheap MEMs microphones the game changes...



Because Ambisonics works best at low frequencies and this mike best at
high frequency range (?), your hint matters - but there seems to be
still some real problem here.

I believe you could build such a miniaturized SF mike easily with
cardioid-response MEMS capsules - if really available!

Could be a fun project... "Everybody knows" that a SF mike is a good
and flexible stereo mike as well. (Virtual microphones.)

Means all you could record stereo or B format ("360º-720º YT audio"
:-P ) w/ your smartphone.

Best,

Stefan

P.S.: As said before this would be a CE microphone just being "good
enough" -  not an attempt to design a cheap professional mike.


I am not sure how they would manage to get an acceptable directivity 
at all frequencies...


I worked on comparing different methods in my master thesis analyzing 
the performance using different spacing

between microphones, just in case anyone is interested on this
http://www.diva-portal.org/smash/get/diva2:752195/FULLTEXT01.pdf


Thanks!



Best,
Sebastià

A 30.10.2016 14:41, Jörn Nettingsmeier escrigué:


On 10/28/2016 08:22 PM, Marc Lavallée wrote:


Here’s the link to the first “article":
https://www.arkamys.com/ambisonic-microphone-ep01/ 





What a load of bollocks. Four omni capsules spaced closely together
will give you... [drum roll]... an omni microphone. So yeah, we've 
got

W, so we're ambisonic :)

They probably got inspired by the other loads of bollocks that get
attached to VR camera rigs to enable them to be marketed as A/V
solutions. Nokia and others do it, so it must work, right?




It's nice if video and recorded ambient sound are recorded from the
same perspective?

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--
Sebastià V. Amengual Garí
Erich-Thienhaus Institut
HOCHSCHULE FÜR MUSIK DETMOLD
Neustadt 22
32756 Detmold

Tel. 05231/975-674
ameng...@hfm-detmold.de
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Re: [Sursound] Auralization Job Available

[Jon Honeyball]

Fosterandpertners.com ?

For extra-pert audio solutions? ☺

jon

On 01/11/2016, 15:20, "Sursound on behalf of Philip Robinson" 
 wrote:

Dear group,

A position for an auralization specialist is coming available in my
research group. In addition to developing new auralization systems, main
duties include producing auralizations of architectural spaces via a
12-channel loudspeaker array and head-tracked headphones. Work is currently
conducted using Max/MSP and EASE, though other options will be considered.
An understanding of room acoustics and architectural construction methods
would be helpful.

The Specialist Modelling Group is a research and development consultancy
within the architecture firm Foster+Partners. The group's role is to
research and develop tools and methodologies to support and refine the
design process. We directly support projects by modelling, coding,
analysing and visualising complex problems. The group has long term
research projects with universities and other companies and is heavily
involved in many design competitions. We are now stepping up our efforts to
integrate environmental and engineering analysis with our design tools. The
group is involved in many projects, from urban master planning to furniture
design.

We are seeking an acoustician to contribute to a wide variety of research
and architectural design projects. Current research in acoustics includes
virtual and augmented reality presentations, wave-based and geometric
acoustic simulation techniques, acoustic visualization, spatial microphone
array measurements, active noise cancellation, and directional loudspeaker
technologies.  Candidates with experience in automotive or aeronautic
acoustics, sound design, architectural acoustic consulting, gaming,
interactivity, or user experience are all welcome to apply. Excellent
presentation skills are essential. Software experience with Max/Msp,
acoustic simulation packages (CATT, EASE), Unity 3d, Rhinoceros 3d,
Grasshopper and coding skills in Matlab,C#,or Python are helpful.

Please contact me at probin...@fosterandpertners.com for more information.

Philip W. Robinson
Environmental Design Analyst - Acoustics
Specialist Modelling Group
Foster + Partners
Riverside, 22 Hester Road
London SW11 4AN
T  +44 (0)20 7943 6191
E  probin...@fosterandpartners.com
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Re: [Sursound] Auralization Job Available

[Jon Honeyball]

No idea what this “this sender failed our fraud detection….” Thing is about?

jon

On 02/11/2016, 10:32, "Sursound on behalf of Jon Honeyball" 
 wrote:

This sender failed our fraud detection checks and may not be who they 
appear to be. Learn about spoofing at http://aka.ms/LearnAboutSpoofing

Fosterandpertners.com ?

For extra-pert audio solutions? ☺

jon

On 01/11/2016, 15:20, "Sursound on behalf of Philip Robinson" 
 wrote:

Dear group,

A position for an auralization specialist is coming available in my
research group. In addition to developing new auralization systems, main
duties include producing auralizations of architectural spaces via a
12-channel loudspeaker array and head-tracked headphones. Work is 
currently
conducted using Max/MSP and EASE, though other options will be 
considered.
An understanding of room acoustics and architectural construction 
methods
would be helpful.

The Specialist Modelling Group is a research and development consultancy
within the architecture firm Foster+Partners. The group's role is to
research and develop tools and methodologies to support and refine the
design process. We directly support projects by modelling, coding,
analysing and visualising complex problems. The group has long term
research projects with universities and other companies and is heavily
involved in many design competitions. We are now stepping up our 
efforts to
integrate environmental and engineering analysis with our design tools. 
The
group is involved in many projects, from urban master planning to 
furniture
design.

We are seeking an acoustician to contribute to a wide variety of 
research
and architectural design projects. Current research in acoustics 
includes
virtual and augmented reality presentations, wave-based and geometric
acoustic simulation techniques, acoustic visualization, spatial 
microphone
array measurements, active noise cancellation, and directional 
loudspeaker
technologies.  Candidates with experience in automotive or aeronautic
acoustics, sound design, architectural acoustic consulting, gaming,
interactivity, or user experience are all welcome to apply. Excellent
presentation skills are essential. Software experience with Max/Msp,
acoustic simulation packages (CATT, EASE), Unity 3d, Rhinoceros 3d,
Grasshopper and coding skills in Matlab,C#,or Python are helpful.

Please contact me at probin...@fosterandpertners.com for more 
information.

Philip W. Robinson
Environmental Design Analyst - Acoustics
Specialist Modelling Group
Foster + Partners
Riverside, 22 Hester Road
London SW11 4AN
T  +44 (0)20 7943 6191
E  probin...@fosterandpartners.com
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Re: [Sursound] Bizarre

[Michael Chapman]

>> Sebastià V. Amengual wrote:
>
> That was one of the main cons. With the four distances that I used in my
> measurements (10.44mm, 23.49mm, 48.34mm, 98.35mm)
> if we wanted to cover the whole frequency range, we needed at least 3
> microphones with different spacing, and then the
> signals could be combined depending on the frequency. But as Fons
> pointed out, a gain mismatch has quite a big influence
> on the directivity, and self-noise is also increased. In our case we
> used GRAS matched mic's, so this problem was mainly
> solved, but I assume with cheap MEMs microphones the game changes...
>

Ignoring, for the moment, commerce : how good do the '360 degree' video
people want the audio to be?
Obviously 'good enough', but what is that?

To my mind you cannot make anything approaching accurate full-sphere video.

To make full circle horizontal images would require a specialised camera*.
Yes, you can 'glue together' a number of individual images, but the
perspective is actually all wrong.
A true panorama has _no_ perspective, as there is no unique viewing position.
(One can make true panoramas 'at home' with a video camera (and software).)
With VR one wants to be able to create views from any viewing position.
There is not enough data in a panorama to create perspective from any
position, let alone from all.

So it is all a case of what is 'good enough'.

We made two videos:
one
-a simple360 degree pan,
the other
-scrolling along a true panorama (with no horizontal perspective) from the
same place.
These were then mounted side-by-side as a wide screen video to demonstrate
the differences.
The result was disappointing. There are differences, but they do not 'jump
out -at (at least) me!

The Crossrail video I referred to earlier apparently used six individual
cameras to create a full sphere video.
That would seem a bit clunky, but reports are that the result is impressive.

So is our 'perspective' on audio vastly different from that of our
audiovisual colleagues?
('Gaming' is I accept a different matter.)
Is audio as clunky as their video 'good enough'?

Michael


*I seem to recall in the Nineteenth Century there was a tower on the edge
of Clifton Downs in Bristol that offered a 360 degree panorama projected
on the wall of a chamberin the tower ... bit that is a very old memory.

For an artist's view there are some interesting insights in Martin Gayford
(2011) "A Bigger Message. Conversations with Daid Hockney".
(At page 58 "I have said that perhaps the big mistakes of the West were
the introduction of the external vanishing point and the internal
combustion engine".  Quoting other material would be a bit meaningless
without reproduction of the artworks that are reproduced in the book.)








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Re: [Sursound] Bizarre

[Stefan Schreiber]

Michael Chapman wrote:


Sebastià V. Amengual wrote:
 


That was one of the main cons. With the four distances that I used in my
measurements (10.44mm, 23.49mm, 48.34mm, 98.35mm)
if we wanted to cover the whole frequency range, we needed at least 3
microphones with different spacing, and then the
signals could be combined depending on the frequency. But as Fons
pointed out, a gain mismatch has quite a big influence
on the directivity, and self-noise is also increased. In our case we
used GRAS matched mic's, so this problem was mainly
solved, but I assume with cheap MEMs microphones the game changes...

   



Ignoring, for the moment, commerce : how good do the '360 degree' video
people want the audio to be?
Obviously 'good enough', but what is that?

To my mind you cannot make anything approaching accurate full-sphere video.

To make full circle horizontal images would require a specialised camera*.
Yes, you can 'glue together' a number of individual images, but the
perspective is actually all wrong.
A true panorama has _no_ perspective, as there is no unique viewing position.
(One can make true panoramas 'at home' with a video camera (and software).)
With VR one wants to be able to create views from any viewing position.
There is not enough data in a panorama to create perspective from any
position, let alone from all.
 



The perspective of a true panorama (i.e. VR) camera seems to be "you" 
(watcher) at the center, focus at infinity. There will be some 
positional errors later (which will depend on the video stitching 
software too), but you can't say there is no perspective at all. 
(Otherwise a video camera would also have no perspective.)


(The < unique viewing position > of a panorama camera is decided at 
viewing time.)


Different  focus and "perfection" would require some LF (light field) 
camera. Is this your point?



So it is all a case of what is 'good enough'.

We made two videos:
one
-a simple360 degree pan,
the other
-scrolling along a true panorama (with no horizontal perspective) from the
same place.
These were then mounted side-by-side as a wide screen video to demonstrate
the differences.
The result was disappointing. There are differences, but they do not 'jump
out -at (at least) me!

The Crossrail video I referred to earlier apparently used six individual
cameras to create a full sphere video.
That would seem a bit clunky, but reports are that the result is impressive.

So is our 'perspective' on audio vastly different from that of our
audiovisual colleagues?
 

Yes, because natural hearing happens in "360º" - with certain 
directional preferences and limitations.


But we actually agree that there are differences of < perspective > in 
video and audio...



Best,

Stefan




('Gaming' is I accept a different matter.)
Is audio as clunky as their video 'good enough'?

Michael


*I seem to recall in the Nineteenth Century there was a tower on the edge
of Clifton Downs in Bristol that offered a 360 degree panorama projected
on the wall of a chamberin the tower ... bit that is a very old memory.

For an artist's view there are some interesting insights in Martin Gayford
(2011) "A Bigger Message. Conversations with Daid Hockney".
(At page 58 "I have said that perhaps the big mistakes of the West were
the introduction of the external vanishing point and the internal
combustion engine".  Quoting other material would be a bit meaningless
without reproduction of the artworks that are reproduced in the book.)








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account or options, view archives and so on.
 



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[Sursound] Auralization Job Available (typo correction)

[Philip Robinson]

Appologies, I included a typo in my recent post.
The correct email address is probin...@fosterandpartners.com

Philip

> Dear group,
>
> A position for an auralization specialist is coming available in my
research group. In addition to developing new auralization systems, main
duties include producing auralizations of architectural spaces via a
12-channel loudspeaker array and head-tracked headphones. Work is currently
conducted using Max/MSP and EASE, though other options will be considered.
An understanding of room acoustics and architectural construction methods
would be helpful.
>
> The Specialist Modelling Group is a research and development consultancy
within the architecture firm Foster+Partners. The group's role is to
research and develop tools and methodologies to support and refine the
design process. We directly support projects by modelling, coding,
analysing and visualising complex problems. The group has long term
research projects with universities and other companies and is heavily
involved in many design competitions. We are now stepping up our efforts to
integrate environmental and engineering analysis with our design tools. The
group is involved in many projects, from urban master planning to furniture
design.
>
> We are seeking an acoustician to contribute to a wide variety of research
and architectural design projects. Current research in acoustics includes
virtual and augmented reality presentations, wave-based and geometric
acoustic simulation techniques, acoustic visualization, spatial microphone
array measurements, active noise cancellation, and directional loudspeaker
technologies.  Candidates with experience in automotive or aeronautic
acoustics, sound design, architectural acoustic consulting, gaming,
interactivity, or user experience are all welcome to apply. Excellent
presentation skills are essential. Software experience with Max/Msp,
acoustic simulation packages (CATT, EASE), Unity 3d, Rhinoceros 3d,
Grasshopper and coding skills in Matlab,C#,or Python are helpful.
>
> Please contact me at probin...@fosterandpartners.com for more information.
>
> Philip W. Robinson
> Environmental Design Analyst - Acoustics
> Specialist Modelling Group
> Foster + Partners
> Riverside, 22 Hester Road
> London SW11 4AN
> T  +44 (0)20 7943 6191
> E  probin...@fosterandpartners.com
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