Re: [Sursound] Furse-Malham to ACN conversion

[Fons Adriaensen]

On Wed, Mar 23, 2016 at 11:25:01PM -0700, Aaron Heller wrote:

> Note that while AmbDec can accommodate FuMa normalization on input, it
> still makes the connections to jack in ACN order so the inputs will often
> appear in Jack in ACN order (and never in FuMa order).

More precisely, the jack ports are _created_ in ACN order. Simply
because all the internal data structures use this order. 

> I say "often"
> because the Jack API does not have any notion of the 'order' of an
> application's ports.

Correct. In many cases jack will list ports in the order they
were created, but you can't count on it. In a system were apps
and ports come and go, they will be mixed up sooner or later.
It happens all the time in e.g. Ardour's connection matrices.

> To make matters worse, some jack control clients,
> like qjackctl, sort the ports by name,

Given that there is no defined order, that's the only sensible thing
they can do. 

> so they appear in the GUI in FuMa
> order, but if you simply do a 'bulk connect' you'll find the individual
> connections were made in ACN order.  You really have to check the port
> names carefully when connecting.

The problem here is that while qjackctl displays a sorted list, it
uses the original order when doing a 'bulk connect'. What it should
do of course is to try and match the names.

The FuMa style input port names in Ambdec were chosen to be convenient
to a human user making the connections, and to show up in qjackctl in
FuMa order (that's why the degree is part of the name). At the time the
FuMa names were more are less the standard. Since then I've written a
lot of (unreleased) jack apps having HOA ports. They all use a naming
scheme based on ACN: in 'printf' style ".%d" where d is the ACN.
Future releases of Ambdec will do the same (with an option to have
FuMa names) since Ambdec is really the only exception to that scheme.
That way tools like qjackctl *could* at least do the right thing.

Ciao,

-- 
FA

A world of exhaustive, reliable metadata would be an utopia.
It's also a pipe-dream, founded on self-delusion, nerd hubris
and hysterically inflated market opportunities. (Cory Doctorow)

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[Sursound] Flac for FOA or amb files?

[Bo-Erik Sandholm]

Has anyone a procedure or description on how to create 4 channel
Flac flac files?

I want to use VLC as a player on windows to start a vst chain for FOA to
binaural processing.

Best Regards
Bo-Erik
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Re: [Sursound] Flac for FOA or amb files?

[Stefan Schreiber]

Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote:


Has anyone a procedure or description on how to create 4 channel
Flac flac files?

I want to use VLC as a player on windows to start a vst chain for FOA to
binaural processing.

Best Regards
Bo-Erik

 



Not a direct answer, but maybe helpful:

http://ambisonics.iem.at/xchange/fileformat/existing-formats

Best,

Stefan

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Re: [Sursound] Flac for FOA or amb files?

[Aaron Heller]

>From an existing AMB file, any of these will work

.  flac --channel-map=none AJH_eight-positions.amb

.  sox AJH_eight-positions.amb AJH_eight-positions.flac

.  open AMB file in Audacity and then export selecting FLAC format

Note that FLAC is limited to eight channels, so this will work for
first-order files only.

I'm curious, how do you use VLC Player with VST plugins?

Best...

Aaron (hel...@ai.sri.com)
Menlo Park, CA  US

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 3:14 PM, Bo-Erik Sandholm 
wrote:
>
> Has anyone a procedure or description on how to create 4 channel
> Flac flac files?
>
> I want to use VLC as a player on windows to start a vst chain for FOA to
> binaural processing.
>
> Best Regards
> Bo-Erik
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Re: [Sursound] Flac for FOA or amb files?

[Stefan Schreiber]

Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote:


Has anyone a procedure or description on how to create 4 channel
Flac flac files?

I want to use VLC as a player on windows to start a vst chain for FOA to
binaural processing.

Best Regards
Bo-Erik

 


https://xiph.org/flac/format.html

(and   https://xiph.org/flac/format.html#stream)

Now look to
FRAME_HEADER,

then (4 bits) < Channel assignment >

You could use < 0011 > to describe a 4 channel format, but Ambisonics 
(FOA) != (ITU-R) L, R, LS and RS.


You could use one of the reserved codes -  but technically this would be 
a hack of the format.



I believe it would make sense to contact Xiph.org and to suggest to 
define a 4-channel "FOA opcode"/format. (The channel assignment would be 
WXYZ, of course.)
This is all very simple, but any format extension should be done by the 
format careholders. They could use "opcode" 1011 or 1110 (second last), 
IMO. (I personally prefer1011.)


OR

You could just define a FOA-FLAC format about in this way, suggesting 
the "brainstorming  experiment" as global solution later  :-D



Note that the < number of channels > is not defined by < channel 
assignment >.


It's here:

< METADATA_BLOCK_STREAMINFO >


<3> (number of channels)-1. FLAC supports from 1 to 8 channels


Ambisonics currently doesn't fit into FLAC 's official channel 
assignment scheme. (6.1 and 7.1 are in.)
I don't see how Aaron's suggestions could fix this annoying fact. Some 
(minimum) extension is necessary.


So it comes down to the old question: Shall we, or shall we not?


Best regards,

Stefan




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Re: [Sursound] Flac for FOA or amb files?

[Bearcat M . Şándor]

If you're not stuck on Flac, you might give Wavpack a try:
http://www.wavpack.com.   It's not as popular as Flac, but is widely
supported on Linux (as well as windows), and the channel limit is
unlimited.  Sometime ago:

Release 4.60 - September 27, 2009
improved: channel count limit now virtually unlimited (tested to 256)

For techinal info see here: http://www.wavpack.com/file_format.txt

This format was considered for the default format for ambisonics work.
Here's a message about it's compatabiity from the author:
https://sourceforge.net/p/wavpack/mailman/message/20505766/

David Bryant posts regularly on the hydrogenaudio forums ( ps://
hydrogenaud.io/index.php?action=forum ) and has always been friendly and
helpful when questions arise.

Bearcat

On Fri, Mar 25, 2016 at 7:37 PM, Stefan Schreiber 
wrote:

> Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote:
>
> Has anyone a procedure or description on how to create 4 channel
>> Flac flac files?
>>
>> I want to use VLC as a player on windows to start a vst chain for FOA to
>> binaural processing.
>>
>> Best Regards
>> Bo-Erik
>>
>>
>>
> https://xiph.org/flac/format.html
>
> (and   https://xiph.org/flac/format.html#stream)
>
> Now look to
> FRAME_HEADER,
>
> then (4 bits) < Channel assignment >
>
> You could use < 0011 > to describe a 4 channel format, but Ambisonics
> (FOA) != (ITU-R) L, R, LS and RS.
>
> You could use one of the reserved codes -  but technically this would be a
> hack of the format.
>
>
> I believe it would make sense to contact Xiph.org and to suggest to define
> a 4-channel "FOA opcode"/format. (The channel assignment would be WXYZ, of
> course.)
> This is all very simple, but any format extension should be done by the
> format careholders. They could use "opcode" 1011 or 1110 (second last),
> IMO. (I personally prefer1011.)
>
> OR
>
> You could just define a FOA-FLAC format about in this way, suggesting the
> "brainstorming  experiment" as global solution later  :-D
>
>
> Note that the < number of channels > is not defined by < channel
> assignment >.
>
> It's here:
>
> < METADATA_BLOCK_STREAMINFO >
>
> <3> (number of channels)-1. FLAC supports from 1 to 8 channels
>>
>
> Ambisonics currently doesn't fit into FLAC 's official channel assignment
> scheme. (6.1 and 7.1 are in.)
> I don't see how Aaron's suggestions could fix this annoying fact. Some
> (minimum) extension is necessary.
>
> So it comes down to the old question: Shall we, or shall we not?
>
>
> Best regards,
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
>
>
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>



-- 
Bearcat M. Şándor
Voice: 872.CAT.SOUL (872.228.7685)
Fax: 406.235.7070
My public pgp key is included for verification of my identity
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Re: [Sursound] Flac for FOA or amb files?

[Marc Lavallée]

To assemble FOA files in amb files, I use channelx and interlx from
the CDP suite: http://www.unstablesound.net/cdp.html

channelx is to extract channels to mono files, while interlx is to
interleave mono files in a proper amb file (with the appropriate WAVE_EX
Ambisonic header) that can be correctly compressed to flac or other
formats. For infos on the amb format and the ordering of channels:
http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/Ambisonic/B-Format_file_format.html

I use command line tools on Linux, but the same can be done on OSX
and Windows (with CygWin).

--
Marc

On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 01:37:46 +,
Stefan Schreiber  a écrit :

> Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote:
> 
> >Has anyone a procedure or description on how to create 4 channel
> >Flac flac files?
> >
> >I want to use VLC as a player on windows to start a vst chain for
> >FOA to binaural processing.
> >
> >Best Regards
> >Bo-Erik
> >
> >  
> >
> https://xiph.org/flac/format.html
> 
> (and   https://xiph.org/flac/format.html#stream)
> 
> Now look to
> FRAME_HEADER,
> 
> then (4 bits) < Channel assignment >
> 
> You could use < 0011 > to describe a 4 channel format, but Ambisonics 
> (FOA) != (ITU-R) L, R, LS and RS.
> 
> You could use one of the reserved codes -  but technically this would
> be a hack of the format.
> 
> 
> I believe it would make sense to contact Xiph.org and to suggest to 
> define a 4-channel "FOA opcode"/format. (The channel assignment would
> be WXYZ, of course.)
> This is all very simple, but any format extension should be done by
> the format careholders. They could use "opcode" 1011 or 1110 (second
> last), IMO. (I personally prefer1011.)
> 
> OR
> 
> You could just define a FOA-FLAC format about in this way, suggesting 
> the "brainstorming  experiment" as global solution later  :-D
> 
> 
> Note that the < number of channels > is not defined by < channel 
> assignment >.
> 
> It's here:
> 
> < METADATA_BLOCK_STREAMINFO >
> 
> > <3> (number of channels)-1. FLAC supports from 1 to 8 channels
> 
> Ambisonics currently doesn't fit into FLAC 's official channel 
> assignment scheme. (6.1 and 7.1 are in.)
> I don't see how Aaron's suggestions could fix this annoying fact.
> Some (minimum) extension is necessary.
> 
> So it comes down to the old question: Shall we, or shall we not?
> 
> 
> Best regards,
> 
> Stefan
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Sursound] Flac for FOA or amb files?

[Augustine Leudar]

I thib=nk you can just export a multichannel flac (quad, 5.1 etc) in the
latest version of Cubase or Nuendo. You could download the demo and test it
:


On 26 March 2016 at 02:54, Marc Lavallée  wrote:

>
> To assemble FOA files in amb files, I use channelx and interlx from
> the CDP suite: http://www.unstablesound.net/cdp.html
>
> channelx is to extract channels to mono files, while interlx is to
> interleave mono files in a proper amb file (with the appropriate WAVE_EX
> Ambisonic header) that can be correctly compressed to flac or other
> formats. For infos on the amb format and the ordering of channels:
> http://members.tripod.com/martin_leese/Ambisonic/B-Format_file_format.html
>
> I use command line tools on Linux, but the same can be done on OSX
> and Windows (with CygWin).
>
> --
> Marc
>
> On Sat, 26 Mar 2016 01:37:46 +,
> Stefan Schreiber  a écrit :
>
> > Bo-Erik Sandholm wrote:
> >
> > >Has anyone a procedure or description on how to create 4 channel
> > >Flac flac files?
> > >
> > >I want to use VLC as a player on windows to start a vst chain for
> > >FOA to binaural processing.
> > >
> > >Best Regards
> > >Bo-Erik
> > >
> > >
> > >
> > https://xiph.org/flac/format.html
> >
> > (and   https://xiph.org/flac/format.html#stream)
> >
> > Now look to
> > FRAME_HEADER,
> >
> > then (4 bits) < Channel assignment >
> >
> > You could use < 0011 > to describe a 4 channel format, but Ambisonics
> > (FOA) != (ITU-R) L, R, LS and RS.
> >
> > You could use one of the reserved codes -  but technically this would
> > be a hack of the format.
> >
> >
> > I believe it would make sense to contact Xiph.org and to suggest to
> > define a 4-channel "FOA opcode"/format. (The channel assignment would
> > be WXYZ, of course.)
> > This is all very simple, but any format extension should be done by
> > the format careholders. They could use "opcode" 1011 or 1110 (second
> > last), IMO. (I personally prefer1011.)
> >
> > OR
> >
> > You could just define a FOA-FLAC format about in this way, suggesting
> > the "brainstorming  experiment" as global solution later  :-D
> >
> >
> > Note that the < number of channels > is not defined by < channel
> > assignment >.
> >
> > It's here:
> >
> > < METADATA_BLOCK_STREAMINFO >
> >
> > > <3> (number of channels)-1. FLAC supports from 1 to 8 channels
> >
> > Ambisonics currently doesn't fit into FLAC 's official channel
> > assignment scheme. (6.1 and 7.1 are in.)
> > I don't see how Aaron's suggestions could fix this annoying fact.
> > Some (minimum) extension is necessary.
> >
> > So it comes down to the old question: Shall we, or shall we not?
> >
> >
> > Best regards,
> >
> > Stefan
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > ___
> > Sursound mailing list
> > Sursound@music.vt.edu
> > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe
> > here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
>
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>



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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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[Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Albert Leusink]

Hello,

Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?

Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to stay
in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to rotation.

It works for mono (by sending it to just the W channel), but how about
stereo, maybe some kind of double M/S that counters the rotation ?

Pardon my ignorance beforehand if this is the equivalent of fitting a square
peg into a round hole...

Thanks !

Albert

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Re: [Sursound] Static stereo source in rotating soundfield, possible?

[Augustine Leudar]

I automate panning with ambisonics using ICST ambisonic panner (though you
can automate any panner) . I have often had many sources moving whilst
others stay static - not sure if thats what you mean ?

On 26 March 2016 at 04:58, Albert Leusink  wrote:

> Hello,
>
> Is it possible to have a non-rotating stereo source in the ambisonic
> soundfield, while all the other sources rotate?
>
> Let's say I have a stereo music bed in a spherical video that needs to stay
> in position, while the other elements (dialog, sfx etc.) respond to
> rotation.
>
> It works for mono (by sending it to just the W channel), but how about
> stereo, maybe some kind of double M/S that counters the rotation ?
>
> Pardon my ignorance beforehand if this is the equivalent of fitting a
> square
> peg into a round hole...
>
> Thanks !
>
> Albert
>
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-- 
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Artistic Director Magik Door LTD
Company Number : NI635217
Registered 63 Ballycoan rd,
Belfast BT88LL
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