Re: [Sursound] "Spatial Workstation" for 360? (VR) audio mixing/edition
Hi, This doesn't yet seem to be available. Part of it is not too radical: the use of binaural plug-ins for a DAW. These have been around in various guises for quite some time, but have not been widely taken up despite the huge number of listeners using headphones (especially on mobile devices) and the widespread availability of stereo (as opposed to truly multi-channel other than 5.1/7.1) audio DAWs. Two channel plug-ins are generally compatible with all of them, multi-channel plug-ins are not. They do seem to offer some sort of binaural surface reflection algorithm, which must be on a per source basis. A binaural global reverb algorithm is harder to implement, and binaural plug-ins that I have seen that have a reverb implementation has a reverb per instance. This can get DSP intensive, and makes it very tedious to make global changes. They do mention incorporation of head tracking, but details are vague. The whole scheme seems to be a re-working of their games engine plug- ins, where sound sources and the listener can move freely, to standard DAW plug-in formats. Using a DAW would be, at best, a simulation, with audio file delivery to games developers being discrete mono, stereo or surround stems as at present. The final binaural coding would be on an audio object or stem basis in the game engine. As far as I know you cannot undo binaural coding or spatially manipulate it (at least not easily and only with static sources and listener). Could be useful for binaural audio production (not exactly a huge market) and producing demonstrations for games audio using their existing products, but is not an answer to every problem. The prospect of communication with more interactive and non-linear audio software (e.g. Max, pd, SuperCollider, Live ??) would be much more interesting. Ciao, Dave Hunt 1. "Spatial Workstation" for 360? (VR) audio mixing/edition (Stefan Schreiber) From: Stefan Schreiber Date: 25 October 2015 19:40:41 GMT To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] "Spatial Workstation" for 360º (VR) audio mixing/edition FYI... http://www.roadtovr.com/two-big-ears-spatial-workstation-delivers- realtime-cross-platform-3d-vr-audio-mixing/ 3D spatial audio specialists Two Big Ears have launched a new 'Spatial Workstation', a platform for audio engineers to mix and edit immersive audio with realtime feedback leveraging VR headset head-tracking information. See "Workflow" picture... The API is designed to provide an interface for developers to deliver accurate and compelling spatial audio, that is - audio which recreates a realistic sound-stage akin to the real world. This is particularly important for virtual reality as what you hear is a key trigger point for presence Best, Stefam -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/24a3086f/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] "Spatial Workstation" for 360? (VR) audio mixing/edition
I've downloaded Unity and 3Dception's existing stuff to play with and my first comments are: Unity is fun! Everyone I know that has tried it thinks it's a great environment to work in. And 3Dception is well integrated into the Unity world. This new VR audio workflow looks to me to be about monitoring in the target environment, i.e. VR, while you are creating your audio elements. This is probably important in this new world that everyone is still learning about. (Though I might counter that ambisonics probably scales from small to large monitoring systems more gracefully than most.) Looks like a plugin for the DAW's that does the rotation and rendering and then a synchronized video player to feed the VR headset and send the headtracking data back to the plugin. I believe the target runtime is the same as their current stuff. You can place individual audio objects in the scene and/or a B-format player. Connect a widget to the camera for head position and the audio engine takes care of mixing, rotating and rendering. Note that the render code is binary and different for each platform so they could potentially be using a different method on phones where cycles are limited. Even with unlimited power, the required low latency means that even 512 sample blocks are too long at the highest frame rates and some optimization is required. Note that native Unity audio can do most of this, but I believe 3Dception has a proprietary binaural system they think is better, and of course they are one of the very few applications that take B-format directly, even in this enlightened age. David VVAudio On Tue, Oct 27, 2015 at 7:27 AM, Dave Hunt wrote: > Hi, > > This doesn't yet seem to be available. > > Part of it is not too radical: the use of binaural plug-ins for a DAW. > These have been around in various guises for quite some time, but have not > been widely taken up despite the huge number of listeners using headphones > (especially on mobile devices) and the widespread availability of stereo > (as opposed to truly multi-channel other than 5.1/7.1) audio DAWs. Two > channel plug-ins are generally compatible with all of them, multi-channel > plug-ins are not. > > They do seem to offer some sort of binaural surface reflection algorithm, > which must be on a per source basis. A binaural global reverb algorithm is > harder to implement, and binaural plug-ins that I have seen that have a > reverb implementation has a reverb per instance. This can get DSP > intensive, and makes it very tedious to make global changes. > > They do mention incorporation of head tracking, but details are vague. > > The whole scheme seems to be a re-working of their games engine plug-ins, > where sound sources and the listener can move freely, to standard DAW > plug-in formats. Using a DAW would be, at best, a simulation, with audio > file delivery to games developers being discrete mono, stereo or surround > stems as at present. The final binaural coding would be on an audio object > or stem basis in the game engine. > > As far as I know you cannot undo binaural coding or spatially manipulate > it (at least not easily and only with static sources and listener). > > Could be useful for binaural audio production (not exactly a huge market) > and producing demonstrations for games audio using their existing products, > but is not an answer to every problem. The prospect of communication with > more interactive and non-linear audio software (e.g. Max, pd, > SuperCollider, Live ??) would be much more interesting. > > Ciao, > > Dave Hunt > > > 1. "Spatial Workstation" for 360? (VR) audio mixing/edition >> (Stefan Schreiber) >> >> From: Stefan Schreiber >> Date: 25 October 2015 19:40:41 GMT >> To: Surround Sound discussion group >> Subject: [Sursound] "Spatial Workstation" for 360º (VR) audio >> mixing/edition >> >> >> FYI... >> >> >> http://www.roadtovr.com/two-big-ears-spatial-workstation-delivers-realtime-cross-platform-3d-vr-audio-mixing/ >> >> >> 3D spatial audio specialists Two Big Ears have launched a new 'Spatial >>> Workstation', a platform for audio engineers to mix and edit immersive >>> audio with realtime feedback leveraging VR headset head-tracking >>> information. >>> >> >> >> See "Workflow" picture... >> >> >> The API is designed to provide an interface for developers to deliver >>> accurate and compelling spatial audio, that is - audio which recreates a >>> realistic sound-stage akin to the real world. This is particularly >>> important for virtual reality as what you hear is a key trigger point for >>> presence >
[Sursound] Integrex decoder
Hi Folks, I was looking out my documentation for the Integrex decoder and I seem to be missing the addendum sheet that I had covering the mods to change one of the mods (H or 45J, can't remember which) to UHJ, which wasn't in the original Wireless World design. Anyone got a copy? Dave -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/e35f9422/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] "Spatial Workstation" for 360? (VR) audio mixing/edition
> On Oct 27, 2015, at 10:50 AM, David McGriffy wrote: > > I've downloaded Unity and 3Dception's existing stuff to play with and my > first comments are: Unity is fun! Everyone I know that has tried it thinks > it's a great environment to work in. And 3Dception is well integrated into > the Unity world. > > > Note that native Unity audio can do most of this, but I believe 3Dception > has a proprietary binaural system they think is better, and of course they > are one of the very few applications that take B-format directly, even in > this enlightened age. The built-in Unity spatialization is really basic (I’m pretty sure it’s just panning and an optional lowpass filter for things behind you), whereas the 3DCeption uses some sort of generalized HRTF. We’ve been using it in Unity for a couple months now and it’s been working out really well. I tried out a bunch of the various spatializer plugins for Unity and theirs definitely sounds the best, and seems pretty CPU efficient. Some of the others either had really weak directional cues, or had strong cues but did weird things to the sound (particularly when doing doppler pitch shifts). Their room modeling only supports a shoebox model that you place in your scene to approximate the size of the environment, but you can change the per-wall reflectance so e.g. if you have an outdoor parking lot you can have a reflective floor but no walls or ceiling. You can also put multiple boxes around and it’ll take care of switching into the correct one as you move the player around. Come to think of it I’m not sure how they handle sources in one box and the player in another… On their site they say they have a more sophisticated room modeling system with occlusion and more complex geometry, so we’ll see where that goes. The ability to put B-format content in your scenes is also super awesome. -s ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Integrex decoder
I have it. Give me a day to locate and scan it and I will send it to you. Giovanni Abrate -Original Message- From: Dave Malham Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:12 AM To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] Integrex decoder Hi Folks, I was looking out my documentation for the Integrex decoder and I seem to be missing the addendum sheet that I had covering the mods to change one of the mods (H or 45J, can't remember which) to UHJ, which wasn't in the original Wireless World design. Anyone got a copy? Dave -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/e35f9422/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Integrex decoder
Thanks! Dave On 27 October 2015 at 16:00, wrote: > I have it. > Give me a day to locate and scan it and I will send it to you. > Giovanni Abrate > > -Original Message- From: Dave Malham > Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:12 AM > To: Surround Sound discussion group > Subject: [Sursound] Integrex decoder > > Hi Folks, >I was looking out my documentation for the Integrex decoder and I seem > to be missing the addendum sheet that I had covering the mods to change one > of the mods (H or 45J, can't remember which) to UHJ, which wasn't in the > original Wireless World design. Anyone got a copy? > >Dave > > -- > > As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. > > These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University > > Dave Malham > Honorary Fellow, Department of Music > The University of York > York YO10 5DD > UK > > 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' > -- next part -- > An HTML attachment was scrubbed... > URL: < > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/e35f9422/attachment.html > > > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > ___ > Sursound mailing list > Sursound@music.vt.edu > https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, > edit account or options, view archives and so on. > -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/71cbd600/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Browsers that play surround sound under HTML5.
Hi Augustime. Browsers that are able to play multichannel streams can have their output downmixed by the OS. So, yes, Chrome can play surround streams without downmixing, but we cannot assume that target audiences can always setup their systems properly. As for Android, phones are (mostly) limited to stereo. But Android can play multichannel streams on devices that have a multichannel output (like televisions sets or boxes) through HDMI, TOSLINK, or USB sound modules. More details here: https://source.android.com/devices/audio/ -- Marc On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 22:12:33 +0100, Augustine Leudar wrote: > I think you are. So browsers just downmix 5.1 or 7.1 to stereo ? And > treat any other multichannel files the same ? And android chrome can > actually play 5.1 without down mixing ? That's odd because phones are > not my first choice for playing multichannel audio. It's a mess all > right . > > On Friday, 23 October 2015, Marc Lavallée wrote: > > > Hi Augustime. > > > > I used Ambisonics as an example (or a "use case"); all surround > > formats requires more than 2 channels (appart from UHJ). The > > problem is that Firefox (and other browsers) don't support more > > than 2 channels. Sometimes the problem is on the device or the > > operating system; although Chrome supports more than 2 channels, on > > the Android OS the number of channels available to Chrome is > > limited to 2. > > > > Worst: most audio API and codecs *assume* that "multichannel" means > > something like "5.1" or "7.1", and apply default rules. Audio API > > (and codecs too) should just expose their channels in the order of > > the audio stream, and not try to decide what is the surround scheme > > by looking at the number of channels. > > > > There's a reason why multichannel audio is so difficult; in order to > > help programmers, most audio API are making things more confusing... > > > > I guess I'm not really answering your question... > > -- > > Marc > > > > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 21:32:14 +0100 > > Augustine Leudar > wrote: > > > > > What about other forms of surround sound that are not ambisonics ? > > > > > > On Friday, 23 October 2015, Marc Lavallée > > wrote: > > > > > > > The problem is that Mozilla (and maybe others) just need to fix > > > > (or better document) their version of the Web Audio API. Then > > > > it'd be possible to decode ambisonic at any order. Chrome does > > > > a better job, but it's (hopefully) a temporary monopoly, since > > > > Mozilla is organising the Web Audio Conference. > > > > -- > > > > Marc > > > > > > > > On Fri, 23 Oct 2015 09:37:06 +0100 > > > > Dave Malham > > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > I think the problem is the fact that at least one of the > > > > > decoders needed is proprietary so costs money to include > > > > > which makes it difficult for free browsers, if not backed by > > > > > mega corporations. Of course, I could well be wrong (again) > > > > > but it is a shame when Mozilla loses it's position as the > > > > > most standard compliant browser, especially when it impacts > > > > > audio. > > > > > > > > > > Dave > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > On 22 October 2015 at 13:44, David Pickett > > > > > > wrote: > > > > > > > > > > > Bruce Wiggins' webpage on browsers that play surround > > > > > > recordings using the HTML5 tag is 3.5 years old. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.brucewiggins.co.uk/?p=265 > > > > > > > > > > > > I dont use IE, and Firefox doesnt play ball at all on the > > > > > > PC, so I use Chrome for multi-channel aac files. > > > > > > > > > > > > http://www.fugato.com/pickett/surround-tests.shtml > > > > > > > > > > > > But it is disappointing to think that no other browsers have > > > > > > caught up in the last three years. > > > > > > > > > > > > Has anyone tested any others with multi-channel files? > > > > > > > > > > > > David ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Integrex decoder
I had a better copy, that I can't find, but this should have all you need. Giovanni -Original Message- From: Dave Malham Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 12:14 PM To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Integrex decoder Thanks! Dave On 27 October 2015 at 16:00, wrote: I have it. Give me a day to locate and scan it and I will send it to you. Giovanni Abrate -Original Message- From: Dave Malham Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:12 AM To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] Integrex decoder Hi Folks, I was looking out my documentation for the Integrex decoder and I seem to be missing the addendum sheet that I had covering the mods to change one of the mods (H or 45J, can't remember which) to UHJ, which wasn't in the original Wireless World design. Anyone got a copy? Dave -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: < https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/e35f9422/attachment.html > ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/71cbd600/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ambisonic UHJ decoders.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 20788 bytes Desc: not available URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/79b4c2df/attachment.docx> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
Re: [Sursound] Integrex decoder
Let me try again. Giovanni -Original Message- From: Dave Malham Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 12:14 PM To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: Re: [Sursound] Integrex decoder Thanks! Dave On 27 October 2015 at 16:00, wrote: I have it. Give me a day to locate and scan it and I will send it to you. Giovanni Abrate -Original Message- From: Dave Malham Sent: Tuesday, October 27, 2015 11:12 AM To: Surround Sound discussion group Subject: [Sursound] Integrex decoder Hi Folks, I was looking out my documentation for the Integrex decoder and I seem to be missing the addendum sheet that I had covering the mods to change one of the mods (H or 45J, can't remember which) to UHJ, which wasn't in the original Wireless World design. Anyone got a copy? Dave -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: < https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/e35f9422/attachment.html > ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- As of 1st October 2012, I have retired from the University. These are my own views and may or may not be shared by the University Dave Malham Honorary Fellow, Department of Music The University of York York YO10 5DD UK 'Ambisonics - Component Imaging for Audio' -- next part -- An HTML attachment was scrubbed... URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/71cbd600/attachment.html> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on. -- next part -- A non-text attachment was scrubbed... Name: Ambisonic UHJ decoders.docx Type: application/vnd.openxmlformats-officedocument.wordprocessingml.document Size: 20788 bytes Desc: not available URL: <https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/private/sursound/attachments/20151027/7df17280/attachment.docx> ___ Sursound mailing list Sursound@music.vt.edu https://mail.music.vt.edu/mailman/listinfo/sursound - unsubscribe here, edit account or options, view archives and so on.
