Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 25 Oct 2014 05:07, "William Stein" wrote: > > On Fri, Oct 24, 2014 at 7:32 PM, Jason Grout > wrote: > > And here's a public worksheet: > > https://cloud.sagemath.com/projects/49a2531d-9d02-42c9-9db6-f9551fbfa59e/files/2014-10-24-212837.sagews > > > > (Thanks, William, for making public worksheets!) > > They are fun aren't they -- no login required. When I first clicked link on my Android phone, I got presented with requiring me to log in or create an account. I thought "I would not call that public" and didn't it much more thought - I could not be bothered to create an account. Then Williams comment made me look again. On my phone there are three browsers. 1) Internet - the only one installed when one buys the phone 2) Firefox, which I installed 3) Google Chrome which I also installed. With Firefox and Chrome I get to a page that works, but not for the default browser. You might want to read the browser type and issue appropriate warnings for incompatible ones. Dave. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 10/25/14, 0:07, William Stein wrote: They are fun aren't they -- no login required. It seems that often, though, the login page or the project settings page flashes up for a second or less, which is confusing. Do you know why the signup page or settings page might come up first, then be replaced with the worksheet? Thanks, Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
A fairly bogus article for AMS. First of all, reporting a bug in the calculation of determinant in Mathematica does not require several pages. Secondly, if an algorithm for a problem has a flaw, and the same algorithm is used in 2 CAS, it doesn't support anything that the answers are the same. Actually more plausibly, the user is mistaken in his/her belief that the notation he/etc used unambiguously denotes a mathematical calculation whose answer is "wrong". I have a collection of such "system-independent" bugs that for example violate referential transparency. Thirdly, (and I think you have to read the comments), open source etc does not result in debugged or even properly designed programs. Indeed, bugs can be (dare I say-- are) introduced by allowing random people to modify code. Sometimes, and in particular with certain integrals with square roots, is that there are 2 square roots, and unless you specify which one, you might not agree with someone else. This is quite tricky because the typical input format for requesting an integral DOES NOT PROVIDE A WAY TO SPECIFY this kind of detail. The examples in the paper of an integral of sqrt (9*t^4-20*t^2+16) is puzzling, but maybe it has to do with a crappy solution of a quartic. Anyway, reporting more bugs in these systems -- eh, I guess AMS can publish whatever it wants to publish. RJF On Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:37:42 AM UTC-7, jason wrote: > > On 10/25/14, 0:07, William Stein wrote: > > They are fun aren't they -- no login required. > > It seems that often, though, the login page or the project settings page > flashes up for a second or less, which is confusing. Do you know why > the signup page or settings page might come up first, then be replaced > with the worksheet? > > Thanks, > > Jason > > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC+1, rjf wrote: > > Indeed, bugs can be (dare I say-- are) introduced by allowing > random people to modify code. > Flamebait or just hilariously wrong misconception of open source? In any case, the real WTF of the article (besides the low information density) is that Wolfram sat on the bug report for >1 year and did nothing about it. I'd like to know the thought process that lead to that. Should we make that ticket a blocker? Nah, nobody cares about linear algebra with medium-sized integer matrices. We'll only do something about it if more people complain -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:37 AM, Jason Grout wrote: > On 10/25/14, 0:07, William Stein wrote: >> >> They are fun aren't they -- no login required. > > > It seems that often, though, the login page or the project settings page > flashes up for a second or less, which is confusing. Do you know why the > signup page or settings page might come up first, then be replaced with the > worksheet? It's fixed now. William > > Thanks, > > Jason > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 2014-10-25, Volker Braun wrote: > --=_Part_265_1870362412.1414262432518 > Content-Type: text/plain; charset=UTF-8 > > On Saturday, October 25, 2014 6:44:06 PM UTC+1, rjf wrote: >> >> Indeed, bugs can be (dare I say-- are) introduced by allowing >> random people to modify code. >> > > Flamebait or just hilariously wrong misconception of open source? > > In any case, the real WTF of the article (besides the low information > density) is that Wolfram sat on the bug report for >1 year and did nothing > about it. I'd like to know the thought process that lead to that. Should we > make that ticket a blocker? Nah, nobody cares about linear algebra with > medium-sized integer matrices. We'll only do something about it if more > people complain Perhaps they even tried, but their source code is even messier than Sage, etc :-) > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 25 Oct 2014 01:55, "Jason Grout" wrote: > > The AMS Notices has a column about using computers to do math, dwelling on some problems they had with Mathematica: > > http://www.ams.org/notices/201410/rnoti-p1249.pdf Somewhat related I see an example last week of where I think the use of computer software can be a problem. I was at a meeting organised by Keysight (formally Agilent) on THz technology. There was a presentation about the verification of vector network analyzers at THz frequencies by someone working at the National Physics Laboratory (NPL) in the UK - the UK equivalent of NIST in the USA. He had essentially created a verification device out of hollow metallic waveguide. The electrcal properties of the waveguide were computed using CST Microwave Studio, which is a 3D electromagnetic simulation program costing well over 10x that of Mathematica. In order to compute the uncertainty in the electrical properties of the waveguide things like the surface roughness of the metal, uncertainty in the length, width, height etc. I know from experience that there are many similar packages to CST. They all basically compute numerical solutions to Maxwell's Equations, but don't use identical methods. Some for example compute properties using the Finite Difference Time Domain (FDTD) method, then use an FFT to get frequency domain data. Other programs use finite elements and work in the frequency domain. The results of all the packages generally agree well, but no two would give exactly the same result. But when I asked him about the effect of the inexactness of the software, he admitted that there was no uncertainty assumed for the EM simulator. He said he could repeat with other simulation software to get an idea of its effect, and hopefully develop an analytical solution. Whilst I expect it would be possible to develop an analytical solution assuming square walls on the waveguide, I doubt one could do it taking into account all the mechanical errors in making these. So this was a national standards laboratory developing a device to measure the uncertainty in measurements of state of the art instruments, but the software was assumed to be perfect. I would add this device is not a national standard - he was only reporting on work taking place at NPL. Another thing related to the use of 3D electromagnetic simulation software is the huge number of scientific publications making use of such software. Realistically nobody could repeat the work. The authors don't make the files available, and even if they did, some of these programs cost over $100,000. They make the cost off Mathematica look like a childs pocket money. Dr David Kirkby Managing Director Kirkby Microwave Ltd Registered office: Stokes Hall Lodge, Burnham Rd, Chelmsford, Essex, CM3 6DT, United Kingdom Registered in England and Wales as company number 08914892 http://www.kirkbymicrowave.co.uk/ Tel 07910 441670 / +44 7910 441670 (0900-2100 GMT) -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 25 Oct 2014 19:40, "Volker Braun" wrote: > In any case, the real WTF of the article (besides the low information density) is that Wolfram sat on the bug report for >1 year and did nothing about it. There must be tons of Sage bugs reported which don't get fixed. You can argue about the seriousness of a bug, but I don't think open source software is immune from that problem. Of course one can search a database of reported Sage bugs, where for Mathematica the database is not public. Dave. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: Sage on OSX 10.10
On Friday, October 24, 2014 6:39:45 AM UTC-7, Volker Braun wrote: > > I have a working Sage on OSX 10.10. I suggest to release that shortly, in > case anybody else made the mistake of upgrading soon after the initial > Yosemite release ;-) Please review > > http://trac.sagemath.org/query?status=needs_review&keywords=~yosemite > > and any outstanding blocker bugs... > When I use all of these fixes on a somewhat old OS X 10.10 machine and run 'make ptestlong', all tests pass. But if I set SAGE_CHECK=yes, then I get many failures in test suites: flint, git, gsl, m4rie, pari, and iml. I think that iml always fails its tests on OS X (in my experience), but others look new. Log files: http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/OSX10.10/ -- John -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: Sage on OSX 10.10
See also what I wrote in http://trac.sagemath.org/ticket/17204#comment:7 I had already reported the flint one a while ago. Git works for me. I have already made tickets for gsl and m4rie. On Saturday, October 25, 2014 11:26:43 PM UTC+1, John H Palmieri wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 24, 2014 6:39:45 AM UTC-7, Volker Braun wrote: >> >> I have a working Sage on OSX 10.10. I suggest to release that shortly, in >> case anybody else made the mistake of upgrading soon after the initial >> Yosemite release ;-) Please review >> >> http://trac.sagemath.org/query?status=needs_review&keywords=~yosemite >> >> and any outstanding blocker bugs... >> > > When I use all of these fixes on a somewhat old OS X 10.10 machine and run > 'make ptestlong', all tests pass. But if I set SAGE_CHECK=yes, then I get > many failures in test suites: flint, git, gsl, m4rie, pari, and iml. I > think that iml always fails its tests on OS X (in my experience), but > others look new. Log files: > http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/OSX10.10/ > > -- > John > > -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Sage on OSX 10.10
In the case of iml, the upgrade to 1.0.4 should solve the failing test problem. In 1.0.3 and under there was always something that was bound to fail on OS X. At least that’s how I remember it. Not sure when I will give the whole thing a spin. I do not see a window of opportunity before Wednesday (Tuesday for most of you). François > On 26/10/2014, at 11:26, John H Palmieri wrote: > > > > On Friday, October 24, 2014 6:39:45 AM UTC-7, Volker Braun wrote: > I have a working Sage on OSX 10.10. I suggest to release that shortly, in > case anybody else made the mistake of upgrading soon after the initial > Yosemite release ;-) Please review > > http://trac.sagemath.org/query?status=needs_review&keywords=~yosemite > > and any outstanding blocker bugs... > > When I use all of these fixes on a somewhat old OS X 10.10 machine and run > 'make ptestlong', all tests pass. But if I set SAGE_CHECK=yes, then I get > many failures in test suites: flint, git, gsl, m4rie, pari, and iml. I think > that iml always fails its tests on OS X (in my experience), but others look > new. Log files: http://sage.math.washington.edu/home/palmieri/misc/OSX10.10/ > > -- > John > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 10/25/14, 15:04, William Stein wrote: On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:37 AM, Jason Grout wrote: On 10/25/14, 0:07, William Stein wrote: They are fun aren't they -- no login required. It seems that often, though, the login page or the project settings page flashes up for a second or less, which is confusing. Do you know why the signup page or settings page might come up first, then be replaced with the worksheet? It's fixed now. Not for me. There's a blank white page, then a page that says Sage and something like "loading", then the settings page for a project, then the published worksheet. Each page flashes up for maybe 1/2 second or so. I've made sure my cache is disabled when I reloaded. This is with this page: https://cloud.sagemath.com/projects/4a5f0542-5873-4eed-a85c-a18c706e8bcd/files/support/ams-article-mathematica-bugs.sagews Thanks, Jason -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On Oct 25, 2014 5:53 PM, "Jason Grout" wrote: > > On 10/25/14, 15:04, William Stein wrote: >> >> On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:37 AM, Jason Grout >> wrote: >>> >>> On 10/25/14, 0:07, William Stein wrote: They are fun aren't they -- no login required. >>> >>> >>> >>> It seems that often, though, the login page or the project settings page >>> flashes up for a second or less, which is confusing. Do you know why the >>> signup page or settings page might come up first, then be replaced with the >>> worksheet? >> >> >> It's fixed now. >> > > Not for me. There's a blank white page, then a page that says Sage and something like "loading", then the settings page for a project, then the published worksheet. Each page flashes up for maybe 1/2 second or so. I've made sure my cache is disabled when I reloaded. > > This is with this page: https://cloud.sagemath.com/projects/4a5f0542-5873-4eed-a85c-a18c706e8bcd/files/support/ams-article-mathematica-bugs.sagews > > Try it when you are not logged in, eg in a new private browsing session. > Thanks, > > Jason > > > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:34 PM, William Stein wrote: > > On Oct 25, 2014 5:53 PM, "Jason Grout" wrote: >> >> On 10/25/14, 15:04, William Stein wrote: >>> >>> On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 6:37 AM, Jason Grout >>> wrote: On 10/25/14, 0:07, William Stein wrote: > > > They are fun aren't they -- no login required. It seems that often, though, the login page or the project settings page flashes up for a second or less, which is confusing. Do you know why the signup page or settings page might come up first, then be replaced with the worksheet? >>> >>> >>> It's fixed now. >>> >> >> Not for me. There's a blank white page, then a page that says Sage and >> something like "loading", then the settings page for a project, then the >> published worksheet. Each page flashes up for maybe 1/2 second or so. I've >> made sure my cache is disabled when I reloaded. >> >> This is with this page: >> https://cloud.sagemath.com/projects/4a5f0542-5873-4eed-a85c-a18c706e8bcd/files/support/ams-article-mathematica-bugs.sagews >> >> > > Try it when you are not logged in, eg in a new private browsing session. Disregard my message -- I would guess you already are using private browsing mode for testing. -- William > >> Thanks, >> >> Jason >> >> >> >> -- >> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups >> "sage-devel" group. >> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an >> email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. >> To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. >> Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. >> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: "Can We Trust Computer Algebra Systems?"
On 2014-10-24, Jakob Kroeker wrote: > I'm doing this: since in the recent project I ran into many bugs in a > well-known CAS, and now I do not trust any function I use and started > to look actively for bugs (testing and code reviewing) and discovered > about 100 bugs during the last year. > Some code parts (which exist and were used for more than 10 years) I > checked, reach an error rate about 5 bugs per 1000 lines. > Sage builds on top of this CAS and probably on top of other buggy packages. Erm, well, if this unnamed package is Maxima, I hope you'll share the fruits of your labors and file bug reports for the bugs you found. I can't promise that we'll be able to fix them soon, but we'll try. best Robert Dodier -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On 2014-10-25, William Stein wrote: > They are fun aren't they -- no login required. Here's one > illustrating two of the integrals in that article that Mathematica > gets wrong -- it has some 2d and 3d plots (!): Is there a tl;dr somewhere which says what is the problem that Mma got wrong? and I gather there is an incorrect integral too? best Robert Dodier -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
Re: [sage-devel] Re: "Can We Trust Computer Algebra Systems?"
On Sat, Oct 25, 2014 at 7:26 PM, Robert Dodier wrote: > On 2014-10-24, Jakob Kroeker wrote: > >> I'm doing this: since in the recent project I ran into many bugs in a >> well-known CAS, and now I do not trust any function I use and started >> to look actively for bugs (testing and code reviewing) and discovered >> about 100 bugs during the last year. >> Some code parts (which exist and were used for more than 10 years) I >> checked, reach an error rate about 5 bugs per 1000 lines. >> Sage builds on top of this CAS and probably on top of other buggy packages. > > Erm, well, if this unnamed package is Maxima, I hope you'll share the I think he is referring to Singular. > fruits of your labors and file bug reports for the bugs you found. > I can't promise that we'll be able to fix them soon, but we'll try. > > best > > Robert Dodier > > -- > You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups > "sage-devel" group. > To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an > email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. > To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. > Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. > For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout. -- William Stein Professor of Mathematics University of Washington http://wstein.org -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
[sage-devel] Re: The Misfortunes of a Trio of Mathematicians Using Computer Algebra Systems
On Saturday, October 25, 2014 7:35:06 PM UTC-7, Robert Dodier wrote: > > Is there a tl;dr somewhere which says what is the problem that Mma got > wrong? and I gather there is an incorrect integral too? > Here's an integral maxima gets wrong with abs_integrate loaded: integrate(integrate(abs(exp(2*%pi*%i*x)+exp(2*%pi*%i*y)),x,0,1),y,0,1); (like apparently MMa and Maple, maxima evaluates this to 0) (without abs_integrate it just doesn't evaluate). -- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups "sage-devel" group. To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an email to sage-devel+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com. To post to this group, send email to sage-devel@googlegroups.com. Visit this group at http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel. For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
