Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
For what it's worth, B&S has a stellar reputation around here for dealer warranty support on their generators. I know that doesn't always translate when companies acquire others (a case in point is the disastrous ADT/SunPro mess). How battery manufacturers will handle LiPO warranty claims is still unknown given the industry's infancy. Homeowners often make decisions based on name recognition and backing of these big companies. And then they find out that wasn't the best decision. All we can do as the middlemen is hold the manufacturers' feet to the fire. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 Florida Certified Electrical Contractor EC13013208 On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 12:17 AM Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in > sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of > these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of > years? > > In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a > complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or > with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was > providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid > batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but > lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite > robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning > signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am > just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay > with pet heaters'* BS either. > > *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks > that don't rely on it, like GTB. > > At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off > of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We > were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the > guise that this was NOT a *'
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
Hi RayI’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. But that sure sucks. JayOn Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads. Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig. How many times have we all heard the old 'Manu S blaming Manu X' snafu on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their batteries. So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's approx. $1.60/ kWh of use from the old set. Simpliphi is saying they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of years? In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am just not a fan of the whole 'battery heating do it yourself off Ebay with pet heaters' BS either. Li+ is just not ready for off grid. It seems to work fine for folks that don't rely on it, like GTB. At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the guise that this was NOT a 'Fly by night/ made in China' offering. Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being wrong. I can only pray that more of these high price tag batteries don't start failing on my watch. I've been holding this rant back for a while, trying to give Simpliphi a chance to make this right. However, t
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
I've been having the same thoughts about Li and off-grid systems. It used to be that I would install a system and then hear back from the clients a decade later when it was time for new batteries. Now, almost every other week I'm dealing with Li related issues (that I feel obligated to pay for). Same with all of the networking and IT and remote monitoring stuff. On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 5:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Ray > > I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. > Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. > > But that sure sucks. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in > sub zero weather at 9000 ft. Also, why would we want to reinstall more of > these, without any assurance that this won't happen again in a couple of > years? > > In 27 years in the off grid business, I have never dealt with such a > complete and sudden battery failure, or with such a rough RMA process, or > with such a poor warranty from a supposedly top tier manu. I thought I was > providing my customer with the best, but now good old flooded lead acid > batteries are all I'm considering for up coming installs. It's 2024, but > lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite > robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning > signs beforehand. They also can handle below freezing weather, and I am > just not a fan of the whole '*battery heating do it yourself off Ebay > with pet heaters'* BS either. > > *Li+ is just not ready for off grid.* It seems to work fine for folks > that don't rely on it, like GTB. > > At least if something like EG4 fails, its price point is not too far off > of lead acid. Simpliphi (now Briggs and Stratton) at almost $800/ kWh? We > were counting on you, we sold these batteries to many clients under the > guise that this was NOT a *'Fly by night/ made in China*' offering. > Based on cycle life, this should have lasted a lifetime. I hate being > wro
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
Hi Ray We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same symptoms you found. Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to 12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt with garbage like the outback skybox!) I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't. You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v - if this charger was used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at 56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to 56v for a short duration. Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but then we find that the equipment we use in off grid (outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or precisely as the battery manufacturer requires. Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure for disposal of the failed batteries.. Hope you find reasonable resolution - Thanks Rich On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Ray > > I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. > Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. > > But that sure sucks. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old generator for the past 3 weeks in > sub zero weath
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
Ray, Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window into how they truly operate over time. Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away. I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable. Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a "tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it already exists. A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the battery manufacturer and vice versa. Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches list. Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy, Christopher On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Hi Ray > > I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. > Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. > > But that sure sucks. > > Jay > > > > On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > > > > We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh > batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off > grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the > barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been > smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, > and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept > used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been > knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. > > Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after > several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. > (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer > started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the > batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with > Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I > checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time > I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge > current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but > strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not > usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no > loads. > > Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage > event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback > FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi > integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they > just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed > = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential > between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS > can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on > industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. > Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off > grid; its a tough gig. > > How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu > on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over > voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, > so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their > batteries. > > So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have > cost, my client is looking at having to buy a complete new set. That's > approx. *$1.60/ kWh of use from the old set*. Simpliphi is saying > they'll give us a discount on refurbished units; that is still to be seen. > The customer has been running on an old
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
About 4 years ago I wrote about my failure of Simplify in service 3 years. after much delay, I took each unit to shop and charged each one on bench power supply, all returned to full function and are still working today off grid system. I agree with the comments they are tricky, MorningStar knows how to charge them. On Thu, Feb 8, 2024, 8:42 AM Chris Schaefer via RE-wrenches < re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > Ray, > > Oddly enough we're getting ready to replace our 22 year old 48v bank of > Rolls Surrette batteries at our offgrid Design and Training Center in > Western NY with a set of Lithium batteries.The reason for the jump to > Lithium is because of the numerous request by clients for them over the > past 5 year or so. By having them here onsite, this will give us a window > into how they truly operate over time. > > Three questions I always ask manufacturers are, can the BMS firmware be > upgraded in the field and/or can the BMS be swapped out in the field? Also > is an internet connection required in order to receive warranty? FYI, Rolls > lithium product is field swappable and does not require an internet > connection. It seems every time we get close to making a choice on which > lithium manufacturer to use something seems to steer us away. > > I couldn't agree more with Ray's statement. "but lead acid are a known > quantity, and with proper maintenance are quite robust and predictable. > Even when they fail, there are plenty of warning signs beforehand." Perhaps > what the lithium manufacturers need to do is provide us installers with a > "tool" that gives us a window into the BMS perhaps via a laptop. Maybe it > already exists. > > A couple of years back we backed out of a couple of projects due to the > fact the clients insisted on a lithium battery. I declined the projects as > the temperature environment was wrong amongst other reasons too. I followed > up with both projects a year later and both projects failed miserably and > as Ray called it, the inverter manufacturer pointed the finger to the > battery manufacturer and vice versa. > > Keep up the great work everyone and don't forget to donate to the wrenches > list. > > Your Friendly Neighborhood Solar Guy, > Christopher > > On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches < > re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: > >> Hi Ray >> >> I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. >> Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. >> >> But that sure sucks. >> >> Jay >> >> >> >> On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches < >> re-wrenches@lists.re-wrenches.org> wrote: >> >> >> >> We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh >> batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off >> grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the >> barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been >> smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, >> and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept >> used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been >> knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. >> >> Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after >> several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. >> (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer >> started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the >> batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with >> Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I >> checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time >> I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge >> current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but >> strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not >> usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no >> loads. >> >> Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage >> event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback >> FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi >> integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they >> just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed >> = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential >> between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS >> can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on >> industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. >> Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off >> grid; its a tough gig. >> >> How many times have we all heard the old '*Manu S blaming Manu X'* snafu >> on this list? Simpliphi is s
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
The auxiliary charger was only used after Simpliphi recommended it. This was also a requirement before they would even issue an RMA: charge each battery individually for 2 hours with a separate DC power supply or battery charger. That's 8 hours total on site by the way, and another problem I had with their overall warranty process. Every step of the way was one delay effort after another. Even this week, they broke the news to me that I wasn't getting a warranty for my customer, because of "high voltage". I mentioned that I thought it was due to a voltage differential between the the batteries at very low SOC and voltage, and not that the charger had inadvertently exceeded high voltage limits. Another 3 days of no communication has ensued, as they check with engineering. Basically, its like Boeing's 737 Max; if there's a problem with even 1 out of 200 systems, its not acceptable. Simpliphi is obligated to: A) Put it in writing that the warranty is voided if we use XW inverters or older FM 80 charge controllers. (2 units mentioned specifically that they had seen this happen with before) or B) Fix their BMS, so it is robust enough to survive in systems that otherwise work fine with other batteries. or C) Honor the warranty and take the hit 1 out of 200 times that it doesn't work out. Simpliphi knew there was a problem, and hid it from installers, because they didn't want to lose sales. Then when there is a failure after the sale, they blow us off with repeated delays, and their vaporware 10 year warranty. The fact that Briggs &Stratton is part of this now, just points to the usual penny pinching in a corporation after consolidation. I hope I'm wrong, I will report to the Wrenches list as to what transpires. Right now, I'm shopping for SLA batteries to get this customer back in action. Reporting as always from the Bleeding Edge, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/8/2024 7:35 AM, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Ray We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same symptoms you found. Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to 12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt with garbage like the outback skybox!) I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't. You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v - if this charger was used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at 56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to 56v for a short duration. Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but then we find that the equipment we use in off grid (outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or precisely as the battery manufacturer requires. Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure for disposal of the failed batteries.. Hope you find reasonable resolution - Thanks Rich On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Ray I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. But that sure sucks. Jay On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to b
Re: [RE-wrenches] Lithium batteries
Hi Richard; Off list, what was your outcome from Simpliphi? Did they make any deal with you? What did you put in as replacements? Thanks, Ray Walters Remote Solar On 2/8/2024 7:35 AM, Richard Nicol via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Ray We had a complete failure of 6 Simpliphi batteries with the same symptoms you found. Another installer had replaced the inverter with an XW and appeared to leave the charger programing on factory defaults along with temp compensation so when the generator was called for it would rise to absorption at 57.6V. I considered that programming may have reverted to defaults too as the other installer in this case was experienced and respected. We have seen Magnum inverters with an ARC revert to default programming and we've seen Magnum 48v programming suddenly revert to precisely 1/4 of its settings - so it shifted to 12v values on its own?? Sometimes I find it's hard to trust the complexity of firmware and software (especially after having dealt with garbage like the outback skybox!) I too expected the bms to protect itself and shut down if the voltage was high enough to do damage. It seems ridiculous that it doesn't. You mentioned the aux charger is stable at 58v - if this charger was used in the past in additon to the XW it may be the culprit as 56v is typically the max for simpliphi - the integration guides started at 56v, then Simpliphi changed the recommendation to a lower voltage and longer duration, only to later revise charging recommendations back to 56v for a short duration. Lithium manufacturers drive very precise charging recommendations, but then we find that the equipment we use in off grid (outback/magnum/schneider/midnite) doesn't control as tightly or precisely as the battery manufacturer requires. Among the challenges we found was absolutely no infrastructure for disposal of the failed batteries.. Hope you find reasonable resolution - Thanks Rich On Thu, Feb 8, 2024 at 8:46 AM Jay via RE-wrenches wrote: Hi Ray I’m going more and more with same oem for systems with lithium. Specifically so I don’t have an issue with finger pointing between OEMS. But that sure sucks. Jay On Feb 7, 2024, at 10:17 PM, Ray Walters via RE-wrenches wrote: We just had a complete failure of a set of four Simpliphi 3.8 KWh batteries, 48 v. It has completely changed my thoughts on Li+ for off grid. This set lasted 5 years, which is about equal to bottom of the barrel Golf Cart batteries. The RMA/ Warranty process has not been smooth. It took almost a week to even get shipping info from Simpliphi, and then another week to deal with Hazmat issues, and get Fed Ex to accept used Li+ batteries for shipment. To their credit, tech support has been knowledgeable, responsive, and available by phone while on site. Overall, the system worked fine for 5 years, but then a month ago, after several days of cloudy weather, the system shut down due to low voltage. (so far, fairly typical off grid winter situation) When the customer started the generator and tried to revive the system, he noticed one of the batteries didn't seem to be taking a charge, so after consulting with Simpliphi, he charged each battery separately with a small aux charger. I checked this charger and it was quite stable at a max of 58 v. By the time I arrived, all 4 batteries would not accept even milliamps of charge current. The BMSs had all disconnected the batteries from the buss, but strangely there was residual voltage (51vdc) on the terminals. It was not usable however, and crashed to 18 v upon connection to the inverter with no loads. Simpliphi is claiming all the BMS units were fried due to a high voltage event. Its winter, there was no lightning, and we had both the Outback FM100 and the Schneider XW programmed according to the Simpliphi integration guides. BTW, Simpliphi has no high voltage recording, they just don't like the look of how their electronics fried. Electronics failed = customer's fault. I think it failed because of the voltage differential between the low battery voltage and normal charge voltage. If the BMS can't survive in a typical off grid environment, with proper programming on industry standard equipment, its not suitable for off grid applications. Plenty of manus have decided to quit recommending their equipment for off grid; its a tough gig. How many times have we all heard the old '/Manu S blaming Manu X'/ snafu on this list? Simpliphi is saying that the XW can have transient over voltage events. Well, that should be mentioned in the integration guide, so we can make an informed decision, and not use that inverter with their batteries. So after paying about 5 times what a set of golf cart batteries would have cost, my client is looki
Re: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array
I’ve designed and installed several thousand cantilevered arrays over the last three decades and never had a single issue. Unfortunately, code changes have taken a turn for the worse in most jurisdictions and oftentimes disallow cantilevering. Sky SimsHttps://EcologicalSystems.org732-462-3858On Jan 19, 2024, at 3:09 PM, Christopher Warfel via RE-wrenches wrote: I've done a fair amount of roof mounted solar structural compliance, and I would say that the cantilevered design looks like a disaster waiting to happen. You could not use conventional solar racking products. Chris On 1/13/2024 12:42 PM, William Miller via RE-wrenches wrote: Drake My earlier reply may have been a bit facetious. What I meant by it was that big-box solar contractors can be lazy when it comes to solar design. They will rely totally on satellite imagery and not check the design on the ground. This is how you get solar proposed for shaded areas, where skylights and roof vents are located, or overhanging thin air. This may be what is happening in the image you shared. What is unique here is someone actually specified overhanging panels. Looking more closely at the image, a roof outline is shown but it is not clear that the outline is actually situated over a building. It almost looks like there is landscaped area inside the outline. The solution of course is to get on out there, measure the roof and any obstructions and analyze the shading. I use the Sun Seeker app for IOS for the shading analysis. William Miller Solar 17395 Oak Road, Atascadero, CA 93422 805-438-5600 www.millersolar.com CA Lic. 773985 From: RE-wrenches [mailto:re-wrenches-boun...@lists.re-wrenches.org] On Behalf Of Drake Chamberlin via RE-wrenches Sent: Saturday, January 13, 2024 8:47 AM To: RE-wrenches Cc: drake.chamber...@redwoodalliance.org Subject: [RE-wrenches] Fwd: Re: Cantilevered array Here is a larger snip of the situation. Label says overhang from upper roof. Drake Chamberlin Athens Electric LLC Ohio Electrical Contractor’s License 44810 NABCEP Certified PV Installation Professional --- On 2024-01-12 07:29, Jason Szumlanski wrote: Are you sure that's what you're looking at? To me, that looks like there was an addition made to the house, and maybe it's a multi-pitch roof. That lower part might be a covered wrap-around porch. Jason Szumlanski Principal Solar Designer | Florida Solar Design Group NABCEP Certified Solar Professional (PVIP) Florida State Certified Solar Contractor CVC56956 On Thu, Jan 11, 2024 at 5:59 PM Drake Chamber
